Discussion about facing Falcon.

[Iron Dragon]

So let's talk about Captain Douglas Jay Falcon for a moment here. Used to be a pain for me, seemingly becoming easier now.

I've started to find that keeping an aerial game works best against Falcon. I like/tend to space bairs a lot because Sheik has a really long **** foot and it keeps just about anything he can throw out there at bay if you space it right, except for maybe a knee(but that move trades with everything). Fair works extremely well against him too, but only at certain times I've found.

Slap his nair because you'll beat it out every time. I've also found that if he gets you in your shield and you have no way out and DON'T want to roll because it will seem predicatble, that you can nair oos and usually use that stun time to get a grab. Many people have told me to just ftilt a lot but I don't find this strategy to be THAT effective, even if spaced right(maybe I'm wrong). Utilt also works wonders on Falcon's who want to stomp oos, or just stomp in general. Utilt will lead to grab, which leads to tech chase of at least 50% generally so that's good imo.

However, even though I do think maintaining a good aerial game is best, it is obviously to keep a good balance otherwise if you're in the air too much Falcon can just combo you to death. It is also good to keep weary of raptor boost as that move has an annoyingly large range, but if you guard it/catch him before he recovers he's screwed by a grab.

Tech chases are extremely basic as I'm sure most of us know, Falcon's techs are so slow that usually you can just react to whatever he techs and follow-up. However I've been having a minor problem lately. When I face some opponent's and they don't tech and I just jab them, the smash DI out of the jab tends to really annoy me. So I would like to know, what do most of you here do to that? Try to re-grab? Go for an aerial of some sort to try and get him to hit the ground/tech? I mean on FD it would seem that even with smash DI out of the jab, that you could still re-grab him, but FD is one of Falcon's best stages. This has given me the idea of just usmashing when he doesn't tech because usually they expect the jab so they're DIing up and the usmash will knock them up and lead to many of Sheik's options, but even so, this is still a guessing game.

As for edge guarding Falcon, I've found that if he's low, I prefer to try and run off slap rather than dsmash him as he comes up, for one because dsmash is easier to DI, because slap will kill guaranteed basically, and also because they might be able to wall tech. When Falcon goes high I like to try and just wait him out and either jump out and slap or nair right as he's about to grab the stage, the latter option seems a bit more effective to me.

So that's my long analysis of Falcon. Make all your criticisms of what I said please because all help for all of us Sheik players would be great

 

[KirbyKaze]

Many people have told me to just ftilt a lot but I don't find this strategy to be THAT effective, even if spaced right(maybe I'm wrong).

You're wrong.

F-tilt ***** him.

F-tilt + CC shuts down his Nairs. Since everything else he does is completely transparent, you can then waltz around and wait until he inevitably does pretty much anything and melt him.

 

[Iron Dragon]

I know CC does and I'm working on that =P. When do you F-tilt during his nair though btw, if you do?

 

[Moooose]

when he sticks his leg out you stick your leg out and it hits him

 

[unknown522]

when he sticks his leg out you stick your leg out and it hits him

^ Basically.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Alright so basically my whole Falcon experience is based on two friendlies with Hax, a set with Darkrain more than two years ago, and two pools sets with Scar and Silentspectre. I'm not good at the matchup by any means but I think I know what you're supposed to do. It's pretty easy, too.

1) Stick to the ground
2) F-tilt him through his moves
3) Refrain from just F-tilting for no reason
4) Grab = whole stock combo
5) DI away at all times
6) CC Nairs into grabs
7) Don't get above him

Stick to the ground because crouch cancel is broken. Simple enough. Also lets you shield. Falcon's moves are slow and if he tries to stomp your shield or whatever, you can WD to avoid. You can also pull a Jigglypuff of sorts and WD into duck and avoid his JC grabs. So all this is good. If you're airborne, none of that works because you can't shield, duck, crouch cancel, or really move in the air.

Never be above him. Again, pretty intuitive. His Uair ***** your whole moveset if he gets to use his optimal hitbox and it combos at least twice, sometimes into Knee, etc. Don't get above him willingly so you avoid that crap happening.

F-tilt him through his moves but don't lob it out with no purpose because Falcon is fast enough to punish you missing F-tilt. I think D-tilt is a better poke if you just want to toss a move out for zoning because it's harder to grab because of the crouch, and it forces him to punish with aerials and other stuff, which require much more execution and prediction on his behalf. Again, Falcon's moves are slow.

DI away. Falcon is a combo character. Hold away. Always.

CC his Nair to grab because that will give you stocks. And prevent you from being launched, thus making you happy. Not being launched means Falcon doesn't get a grab or Uair or whatever the Falcons do after Nair nowadays.

When you grab him, you can very easily make him die. If you pass the point where he can ASDI jab into stand position, don't jab reset and just wait for him to do something and follow. You can also F-tilt if your F-tilt isn't staled (at all; it needs to be 7% and completely fresh) but odds are it will be staled. D-smash is an acceptable alternative because people forget how to tech it for some stupid reason so it often combos into another D-smash, Dash Attack, etc.

In terms of usable aerials and other things, obviously you can do more. You should be doing more, for that matter. Bair, Nair, and Fair are fairly safe but avoid full jump stuff because that risks him getting under you and then ****** your whole stock. Dash Attack is fine if you space it properly. Needles do remarkably little because of how fast he is.

 

[FoxLisk]

I'm gonna go ahead and side with stay grounded. Even if we ignore crouch canceling and shielding and ftilts making it safer, it's better simply because you can't grab from the air (and your aerials don't really combo into grabs), and the point of this match up is basically to get grabs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Crouch cancel should never be ignored.

 

[FoxLisk]

Thanks, you clearly understood the point of my post.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol u mad?

edit: being safe is more important than getting grabs against falcon

edit2: her aerials combo into grab a lot wtf are you saying

 

[LooksLikePit]

Shut up KirbyKaze clearly FoxLisk knows much more about this matchup and Sheik in general than you. Any player I ask would know that FoxLisk is better than you.

And you said it yourself that getting a grab should be a kill against Falcon, so how could being safe and saving yourself a few damage be more important than getting a grab?

tl;dr KK sucks and FoxLisk owns

 

[ETWIST51294]

lolwut

who the **** is FoxLisk???

I know who KK is. He made it out of pools at Pound IIRC.

 

[FoxLisk]

lol u mad?

edit: being safe is more important than getting grabs against falcon

edit2: her aerials combo into grab a lot wtf are you saying

Eh, in my experience I don't get grabs off of aerials that much. I guess at low percents.

Regardless, the point of my post was not to never CC, sheild, or ftilt. It was that sheik's grab is absolutely, inarguably broken against captain falcon, and you should play in such a way as to maximize your ability to get grabs, and that staying in the air does not do this. Your snide reply was, while accurate, unnecessary.

The other guys:

No, you have no reason to respect me, and I'd be surprised if you'd heard of me. I'm a pretty decent competitive player from SoVA who doesn't get out that much. KirbyKaze is almost definitely better than I am (certainly at Sheik).

Pit: Do you notice that I never challenged anything he said? I actually agreed with him, I was just emphasizing the power of the grab in particular. No reason to spew sarcasm around.

 

[LooksLikePit]

No need to be modest; everyone knows how amazing you are. I, for one, certainly value anything you say over the garbage KK tries to pass off as advice. You clearly posted thread to demonstrate your adept knowledge of the Falcon matchup and for KK to come in and try to give YOU, FoxLisk, the master of Sheik, advice was completely insubordinate and uncalled for.

 

[KirbyKaze]

He was kind of right, grabs are really important.

But I think more than anything you need to be safe. Safety is the ground, where F-tilt, crouch, shield, and other stuff collectively beats his whole character. Keeping him out is more important than getting in, and you can death tech chase Falcon from any kind of knockdown, grabs are just an automatic knockdown...

I also greatly disagreed with the aerial = no grab because she can needle grab, aerial --> grab, and Nair --> grab on shields if they try to shield grab or attack out of shield.

I dunno. I guess I didn't need to be snide but I didn't think he was really being accurate.

 

[Iron Dragon]

He was kind of right, grabs are really important.

But I think more than anything you need to be safe. Safety is the ground, where F-tilt, crouch, shield, and other stuff collectively beats his whole character. Keeping him out is more important than getting in, and you can death tech chase Falcon from any kind of knockdown, grabs are just an automatic knockdown...

I also greatly disagreed with the aerial = no grab because she can needle grab, aerial --> grab, and Nair --> grab on shields if they try to shield grab or attack out of shield.

I dunno. I guess I didn't need to be snide but I didn't think he was really being accurate.

I agree somewhat with this. Problems still arise for me when he SDI's the jab and usually I up smash instead and it works and I get some damage, but even so he's then OUT OF MY GRAB meaning that it starts all over again with getting a grab. I'm thinking maybe ftilt around 30% or higher because it could lead to another grab or him teching and then more tech chasing.

While I do greatly agree with f-tilt ****** him and I can see it, Falcon's Nair is a quick move and if you don't get the ftilt out, your options are to then get ***** or try to CC in time to grab him.

As far as just keeping him out rather than getting in, this is why I love bair so much and occasionally fair and nair. You bair him and say HI MY FOOT IS HUGE to anything he wants to do. Up tilt works wonders on his stomping as it will outprioritze it and leads to free grab and then some.

I do have a question, KirbyKaze, and other Sheik players willing to help me out here. When you're shielding and Falcon comes in and knees your shield and then he gentleman's right after that, what do you do to that if anything at all? You can't grab after the knee because gentleman comes out before your grab. Obviously if they miss just the gentleman and keep jabbing then roll behind and grab, but if they DON'T and just do the gentleman, what do you do?

 

[Teczer0]

The shieldstun on the knee doesn't allow you to shieldgrab.

The gentleman is all there to just disrupt your timing and in the chance you try to shieldgrab they get a free combo hit.

The best thing is to do IMO is to just shield everything, knee + gentleman. Then just WD OOS and bail.

Or act accordingly. You're at a disadvantage in that spot.

 

[KirbyKaze]

While I do greatly agree with Bair doing well against him and I can see it, Falcon's Nair is a quick move and if you don't get the Bair out, your options are to then get *****.

 

[Dark Hart]

Alright so basically my whole Falcon experience is based on two friendlies with Hax, a set with Darkrain more than two years ago, and two pools sets with Scar and Silentspectre. I'm not good at the matchup by any means but I think I know what you're supposed to do. It's pretty easy, too.

1) Stick to the ground
2) F-tilt him through his moves
3) Refrain from just F-tilting for no reason
4) Grab = whole stock combo
5) DI away at all times
6) CC Nairs into grabs
7) Don't get above him

Stick to the ground because crouch cancel is broken. Simple enough. Also lets you shield. Falcon's moves are slow and if he tries to stomp your shield or whatever, you can WD to avoid. You can also pull a Jigglypuff of sorts and WD into duck and avoid his JC grabs. So all this is good. If you're airborne, none of that works because you can't shield, duck, crouch cancel, or really move in the air.

Never be above him. Again, pretty intuitive. His Uair ***** your whole moveset if he gets to use his optimal hitbox and it combos at least twice, sometimes into Knee, etc. Don't get above him willingly so you avoid that crap happening.

F-tilt him through his moves but don't lob it out with no purpose because Falcon is fast enough to punish you missing F-tilt. I think D-tilt is a better poke if you just want to toss a move out for zoning because it's harder to grab because of the crouch, and it forces him to punish with aerials and other stuff, which require much more execution and prediction on his behalf. Again, Falcon's moves are slow.

DI away. Falcon is a combo character. Hold away. Always.

CC his Nair to grab because that will give you stocks. And prevent you from being launched, thus making you happy. Not being launched means Falcon doesn't get a grab or Uair or whatever the Falcons do after Nair nowadays.

When you grab him, you can very easily make him die. If you pass the point where he can ASDI jab into stand position, don't jab reset and just wait for him to do something and follow. You can also F-tilt if your F-tilt isn't staled (at all; it needs to be 7% and completely fresh) but odds are it will be staled. D-smash is an acceptable alternative because people forget how to tech it for some stupid reason so it often combos into another D-smash, Dash Attack, etc.

In terms of usable aerials and other things, obviously you can do more. You should be doing more, for that matter. Bair, Nair, and Fair are fairly safe but avoid full jump stuff because that risks him getting under you and then ****** your whole stock. Dash Attack is fine if you space it properly. Needles do remarkably little because of how fast he is.

Best post this thread is ever going to see.

 

[Scar]

Alright so basically my whole Falcon experience is based on two friendlies with Hax, a set with Darkrain more than two years ago, and two pools sets with Scar and Silentspectre. I'm not good at the matchup by any means but I think I know what you're supposed to do. It's pretty easy, too.

1) Stick to the ground
2) F-tilt him through his moves
3) Refrain from just F-tilting for no reason
4) Grab = whole stock combo
5) DI away at all times
6) CC Nairs into grabs
7) Don't get above him

Stick to the ground because crouch cancel is broken. Simple enough. Also lets you shield. Falcon's moves are slow and if he tries to stomp your shield or whatever, you can WD to avoid. You can also pull a Jigglypuff of sorts and WD into duck and avoid his JC grabs. So all this is good. If you're airborne, none of that works because you can't shield, duck, crouch cancel, or really move in the air.

Never be above him. Again, pretty intuitive. His Uair ***** your whole moveset if he gets to use his optimal hitbox and it combos at least twice, sometimes into Knee, etc. Don't get above him willingly so you avoid that crap happening.

F-tilt him through his moves but don't lob it out with no purpose because Falcon is fast enough to punish you missing F-tilt. I think D-tilt is a better poke if you just want to toss a move out for zoning because it's harder to grab because of the crouch, and it forces him to punish with aerials and other stuff, which require much more execution and prediction on his behalf. Again, Falcon's moves are slow.

DI away. Falcon is a combo character. Hold away. Always.

CC his Nair to grab because that will give you stocks. And prevent you from being launched, thus making you happy. Not being launched means Falcon doesn't get a grab or Uair or whatever the Falcons do after Nair nowadays.

When you grab him, you can very easily make him die. If you pass the point where he can ASDI jab into stand position, don't jab reset and just wait for him to do something and follow. You can also F-tilt if your F-tilt isn't staled (at all; it needs to be 7% and completely fresh) but odds are it will be staled. D-smash is an acceptable alternative because people forget how to tech it for some stupid reason so it often combos into another D-smash, Dash Attack, etc.

In terms of usable aerials and other things, obviously you can do more. You should be doing more, for that matter. Bair, Nair, and Fair are fairly safe but avoid full jump stuff because that risks him getting under you and then ****** your whole stock. Dash Attack is fine if you space it properly. Needles do remarkably little because of how fast he is.

all of this should work

 

[KirbyKaze]

wow i'm so gay

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Really DI away ALL the time???

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, not everything.

But most of his stuff is stuff you DI away.

He has fewer things you DI in on, so it's best to begin by DIing everything away. And then from there you figure out what things you shouldn't be DIing away from, and the appropriate DI(s) for them.

Falcon is sort of tricky because he punishes you for DIing in on Knees for a pretty large percent range, despite Knee being a KO move that intuitively you'd DI in on. So there's a lot of complicated material regarding when to DI in or not.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I agree because sometimes falcon picks a direction to chase so if you become predictable then you will be punished. But I originally said that cause I forgot this was a sheik v falcon thread and I was thinking of my main. Its a different story with JIGGS (somewhat).

 

[KirbyKaze]

I asked Hax what Falcon can do if Sheik mostly uses her tech rolls and non-tech + timed invincibility vs his tech chase game and he said, "Not much. You have to guess if you want a decent follow."

So just be really random with your techs. Use all your options. Non-tech + wait for their action is really underrated.

 

[Iron Dragon]

What if the Falcon is really dumb like GG7 and does everything off of reaction so if you don't tech he knees like an ******* *****?

=P

 

[Winston]

I doubt anyone has the reaction time to knee missed techs purely on reaction...

 

[Lordydennek]

i find that the nair is safer than the bair. he can get under that if you dont space right. and having ur back to him isnt a good idea... he'll grab you then you might die.... but ya it makes sooo much sense to just sh always. i realize thats how i would lose stocks trying to fh and needle too much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What if the Falcon is really dumb like GG7 and does everything off of reaction so if you don't tech he knees like an ******* *****?

=P

If Falcon is doing literally everything off reaction, then just be extremely random and try to screw with his timing in any way you can.

I doubt pure reaction is the case, however. Odds are, he's probably fishing for missed tech / tech stand during tech chase if he's trying to get knees. I suggest trying to tech roll. If he actually does have the inhuman reaction time required to hit aerials and whatnot every time just by looking at the screen and pushing buttons in time and without any prediction whatsoever, then don't get grabbed and the matchup is 55-45 or even.

 

[Iron Dragon]

If Falcon is doing literally everything off reaction, then just be extremely random and try to screw with his timing in any way you can.

I doubt pure reaction is the case, however. Odds are, he's probably fishing for missed tech / tech stand during tech chase if he's trying to get knees. I suggest trying to tech roll. If he actually does have the inhuman reaction time required to hit aerials and whatnot every time just by looking at the screen and pushing buttons in time and without any prediction whatsoever, then don't get grabbed and the matchup is 55-45 or even.

he also has me read really well and is just a good amount better than me anyway so im not too worried i'll get there eventually

 

[keeper]

I doubt you want to hear it from me, fellow junglist, but Falcon really is pretty easy. The only issue I have with him is something I've discussed with you already. That being the bad habit of automatically using survival DI to his hits, thus letting him combo me.

I didn't bother to read the thread (like a ****), but I will say pressuring Falcon is something I find to be both essential and easy. His roll is slow enough to abuse and his weight is great for Sheik combos. Just tilt and jab the shield, assuming your spacing is proper. Though I doubt I'm playing a Falcon on the level of GG7 or your brother (or Jetfour)...

Another thing is when Falcon approaches you, there...Is something I choke on. I have this odd tendency to WD into whatever he hits me with. It's a problem I used to have vertically with Falco, but haven't gotten better yet with horizontal situations.

 

[StoneColdBeast]

Do all of the things in this thread.


Then the Falcon will start double jumping or full hoping knees at you to get around f-tilt camping (if they're good).


You will find this very nasty and the thing that always seems to kill you (especially getting kneed after a spot dodge or f-tilt).


And so then you'll have to stop doing those things (though lots of things will work against particular Falcons, if you see him short hoping at you as if he's going to n-air and then double jumping a knee at you, you have to be very wary about spot dodging or f-tilt intercepting a Falcon like that.. Watch Darkrain and Silent Spectre play, they're great at messing around with the timing on their jumping aerials, sometimes they don't even fast fall and "glide" into a knee after your spot dodge..)


It's so hard to give any concrete advice in this game, experience and gaining mild insights along the way in a continuum (instead of all at one like this thread) are really the only way to learn smash. Though you do pick up things from threads like this that help.


Pretty much against Falcon you have to not get stomped/kneed/naired/grabbed and you do this by spacing b-airs (like as in bairing the middle of nowhere and f-tilting or whatever immediately after when he comes at you with a n-air, of course because of your good spacing he won't be able to reach you in time), or by just generally "locking him down" (Sheik can easily do this againt Falcon). You can crouch cancel n-air (this will work a couple of times and discourage n-air approach, but that's about it, then he'll start kneeing/stomping..)


Also, don't be afraid to tech chase a lot.


OHHH, and edge guard like a b****. I'm talking camp the edge with b-throws level of gayness. Seriously, you can't get Falcon off the edge enough, against him and Falco, this is IMPORTANT strategy!


Also, your aerials are VERY good, n-air is VERY underrated, full hop n-airs against very aerial falcons to interupt most anything (can be done OoS depending). Bair is AMAZING and should be spammed to the point that your Sheik looks ********. Sheik has almost NO lag after aerials. You should know this and exploit it during matches, spot dodge when falcon tries to grab you after your aerials. He may try and n-air you after aerials to get around this, then you'll have to get around that (it should be obvious how.) He may just jump and come down on you with a delayed knee (if they're good), in which case f-tilting or spot dodging after the aerial is a bad idea. The game is complicated. You may just want to dash away from falcon after aerials and see if the falcon does anything you can punish.


If you get hit in your shield just roll, don't do anything stupid. Sure rolling is predictable, but at least Sheik has a good one. You can also jump out of shield or wavedash out of shield, those can work, only thing is I constantly mess up the speed (I do it slightly too slow) and I get kneed by that ******** shffl knee -> gentleman -> shffl knee -> gentlemen thing Falcons do. Obviously don't spot dodge against falcon when you're in your shield or shield grab (do it only when you're obviously going to get the grab or your at low percent where punishment isn't that serious.) This is because a.) Falcon's have characteristically good spacing and if they shffl right you can't grab after like any of his aerials and b.) he likes to shffl knees at your shield when he's got you stuck in it.


This match up is in Sheik's favor but good Falcons are really nasty and can never be taken lightly with their gay "rushdown" combos.


RARELY tech in place, Sheik's tech rolls are VERY good combined with the fact that good falcons often look for the in place tech.


Also u-tilt and f-air are good shield pressure against falcon (you can u-tilt their shield or quickly shffl f-airs at their shield. When pressuring falcon's, also look for the roll or the shffl OoS (if they're bad) and the full hop out of shield (if they're good))