Discussing charizards weaknesses (for all charizard mains/secondarys)

[mitchman77]

as a charizard secondary, i find it hard dealing with the for glory spammers and stuff. (TBH they should be playing for fun.) because of his heavyweight, charizard gets comboed really easily, so captain falcon and fox destroy him. if you play charizard what hard matchups do you have with him? i hope im not the only one with these issues Lol
Charizard Forever!

 

[Steeler]

Ok, so Charizard has two major weaks

Characters that can easily get him in the air (and keep him there)

Characters that can pressure him from far away

Zard's air speed is one of the worst in the game, ESPECIALLY for a large heavyweight. And his aerials are absolutely god awful at protecting him when he's in the air. Fair covers maybe 1/4 of his body (compare to Sheik or Bowser fairs with their large radius) and is very slow to end (compare to ROB or Sheik fair). Bair is slow as **** to start and end. Uair only protects his head. Dair is even slower than bair. Nair is the best because it covers everything, but does not actually have much disjointed range to beat out other aerials. This is important. HOWEVER, the autocancel window is very close to when the hitboxes end, so if timed correctly it is fairly safe on grounded opponents. The biggest weakness is that every aerial has very long landing lag when they aren't autocanceled, so you cannot throw an attack out near the ground and expect it to save you against someone shielding or dodging. Throws are the easiest and best way to get Zard in the air, so characters that are naturally good at landing grabs are gonna give you trouble. Oh, and heyyyy, most of those characters are also really good at juggling! How about that? If you aren't sure of which characters I'm referring to, mosey on over to any fan-based tier list out there and take a peek at the top couple of tiers or so.

Characters that can pressure from far away with stuff like Sheik needles or Pika Jolt (lol both those characters apply to the first problem too) are also bad news because Charizard has very weak approach options. This is because of his aforementioned ****ty aerial game and fairly laggy grounded options. Flamethrower is pretty good, but if they can pressure you when you start to get in range of it, you have to really maneuver yourself well to use it, due to its startup. B-reversing, retreating short hop, etc. Dtilt got a minor buff at least.

The top tiers really have a field day with this character if they just play as campy lame as possible, but at least you live forever. If you can keep living forever, you can catch them with one of a number of kill moves that, with rage, will end stocks before 100%. But this is coming from someone who doesn't get to try the customs meta all that often, Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl and Fireball Cannon are really helpful for some matchups.

At least you can armor through stuff.

 

[RadianB]

Charizard really struggles against characters that out range him. With customs though it's not that bad.
Charizard also lacks a decent ground anti-air move for opponents approaching diagonally. Both his Up Tilt and Up Smash have mainly verticle hit boxes. He doesn't have something that completly covers him like many other characters do.

 

[mitchman77]

Im getting used to B-Reversing his neutral special. i play on 3ds so my timing is kinda hard, but b-reverse flamethrower is a great tool for him. it is a good mix up.

 

[Leety]

as a charizard secondary, i find it hard dealing with the for glory spammers and stuff. (TBH they should be playing for fun.) because of his heavyweight, charizard gets comboed really easily, so captain falcon and fox destroy him. if you play charizard what hard matchups do you have with him? i hope im not the only one with these issues Lol
Charizard Forever!

No no, Fox is actually one of the easier match-ups with Zard. Being that Zard packs two extra jumps and being kind of floaty, up-tilt combos are very easy to get out of when DIed properly. Fox also lacks spacing tools to deal with Zard's really good ground mobility and spacing options. When you play properly, the only option that Fox will have is to challenge/exchange with Zard's moves which is what Zard wants to do. Fox's kill options can certainly launch, but the hits on shields are like a fly trying to hit a sumo wrestler. In this case, it's easy to retaliate even possibly netting stock when the Fox player makes this kind of mistake.

On top of all of this, Zard has edgeguarding tools that really shuts down Fox's recovery game. A good Zard player should be able to force them into using his Up-B in which the fox is just asking to get dunked. I'm not saying that Fox gets destroyed by Zard, but I feel that Zard is overall slightly advantaged in the match-up

But in the end, I this is much more about learning Fox's game rather then Zard's weaknesses.


Now characters you should worry about more are those that can juggle, the ones that can keep you in the air such as Pit or in my opinion one of the worst MUs for Zard, ZZS.

The poor horizontal movement and how slow Zard falls in the air is the cause for this (on top of being a large target) and very few safe landing options. I say ZZS is a fine example of pretty much everything that can cause Zard problems. The method of being able deal damage and retreat to safety, insane aerial mobility to allow juggles when she gets momentum, and a kill option that is quite literally set up from juggles. Not only that, she just seems to have a button for pretty much all of Zard's tools.

I know there's some hurdles for Zard, but that's the one where I feel that I'm pretty much required to switch back to Rosa

 

[mitchman77]

No no, Fox is actually one of the easier match-ups with Zard. Being that Zard packs two extra jumps and being kind of floaty, up-tilt combos are very easy to get out of when DIed properly. Fox also lacks spacing tools to deal with Zard's really good ground mobility and spacing options. When you play properly, the only option that Fox will have is to challenge/exchange with Zard's moves which is what Zard wants to do. Fox's kill options can certainly launch, but the hits on shields are like a fly trying to hit a sumo wrestler. In this case, it's easy to retaliate even possibly netting stock when the Fox player makes this kind of mistake.

On top of all of this, Zard has edgeguarding tools that really shuts down Fox's recovery game. A good Zard player should be able to force them into using his Up-B in which the fox is just asking to get dunked. I'm not saying that Fox gets destroyed by Zard, but I feel that Zard is overall slightly advantaged in the match-up

But in the end, I this is much more about learning Fox's game rather then Zard's weaknesses.


Now characters you should worry about more are those that can juggle, the ones that can keep you in the air such as Pit or in my opinion one of the worst MUs for Zard, ZZS.

The poor horizontal movement and how slow Zard falls in the air is the cause for this (on top of being a large target) and very few safe landing options. I say ZZS is a fine example of pretty much everything that can cause Zard problems. The method of being able deal damage and retreat to safety, insane aerial mobility to allow juggles when she gets momentum, and a kill option that is quite literally set up from juggles. Not only that, she just seems to have a button for pretty much all of Zard's tools.

I know there's some hurdles for Zard, but that's the one where I feel that I'm pretty much required to switch back to Rosa

yh i guess that is true, what i meant was by destroys him was getting comboed. due to charizards heavyweight. but i agree with you.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No no, Fox is actually one of the easier match-ups with Zard. Being that Zard packs two extra jumps and being kind of floaty, up-tilt combos are very easy to get out of when DIed properly. Fox also lacks spacing tools to deal with Zard's really good ground mobility and spacing options. When you play properly, the only option that Fox will have is to challenge/exchange with Zard's moves which is what Zard wants to do. Fox's kill options can certainly launch, but the hits on shields are like a fly trying to hit a sumo wrestler. In this case, it's easy to retaliate even possibly netting stock when the Fox player makes this kind of mistake.

On top of all of this, Zard has edgeguarding tools that really shuts down Fox's recovery game. A good Zard player should be able to force them into using his Up-B in which the fox is just asking to get dunked. I'm not saying that Fox gets destroyed by Zard, but I feel that Zard is overall slightly advantaged in the match-up

But in the end, I this is much more about learning Fox's game rather then Zard's weaknesses.


Now characters you should worry about more are those that can juggle, the ones that can keep you in the air such as Pit or in my opinion one of the worst MUs for Zard, ZZS.

The poor horizontal movement and how slow Zard falls in the air is the cause for this (on top of being a large target) and very few safe landing options. I say ZZS is a fine example of pretty much everything that can cause Zard problems. The method of being able deal damage and retreat to safety, insane aerial mobility to allow juggles when she gets momentum, and a kill option that is quite literally set up from juggles. Not only that, she just seems to have a button for pretty much all of Zard's tools.

I know there's some hurdles for Zard, but that's the one where I feel that I'm pretty much required to switch back to Rosa

I agree.

Fox isn't so bad.

Pit is atrocious.

 

[Pixel_]

Anybody know what to do with Mega Man? I can't do anything when I get hit by those pellets.
Any Mega Man can just sit there firing lemons, and Rock Smash, Flare Blitz, even jumping didn't really work. -_-
I only really remember playing one Mega Man, though, and he abused this.

Still not sure if this is the right thread to post this, though.

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, Zard gimps Fox better than any character. Flamethrower on Illusion will always force Fire Fox. If only I quit trying to dunk and just nair instead... On some stages, Fox can ride the underside of the stage to make it more difficult to space dair, in which case you can just nair/bair. Biggest mistake I made in my last match with a Fox.

Pit is pretty bad, I have lost to Pits much worse than me that abuse arrows, rolls, and smashes. If you commit to anything as Zard, it is punishable by roll into an attack. You have to play so silly against stuff like that.

 

[Knucklessg1]

After a lot of games with him, I've realized that Charizard benefits a lot by stages with platforms. Stages where he can throw his fast and safe up tilts to cover platforms above him like battlefield really give him control of more than half the stage. At high percentages you can bait an air dodge when they try to land on a platform above you with an up-b and get the kill at 100%. The underlying cause is Charizard has a good upsmash that gives him disjointed hitboxes on his wings which is a perfect solution for enemy aerial approaches.

 

[Leety]

Anybody know what to do with Mega Man? I can't do anything when I get hit by those pellets.
Any Mega Man can just sit there firing lemons, and Rock Smash, Flare Blitz, even jumping didn't really work. -_-
I only really remember playing one Mega Man, though, and he abused this.

Still not sure if this is the right thread to post this, though.

LeeeEMONS! Pew pew!

Don't worry, you've come to the right place, we're all just Zard players learning our game here.

This goes for any Megaman Match-up and really applies to any character. The properties are a bit different for Megaman's jab attack. Always remember that it's a 1-2-3 jab combo where the jab will give Megaman a brief cooldown period. During this time, Megaman will have the ability to jump, turn around, or even cancel the jab for a mix up. This jab also has knockback if the opponent is at point blank range so watch out for that. Always try to count them to see what options open up and go for those options.

As a Zard player, it's important to note that your jab outranges the point blank zone of the lemons. If you manage to shield at about the halfway point between where the lemons are fired and where they end, you can successfully invade Megaman's comfort zone and jab him to start momentum. You can also do little dances to teach the Megaman player to jump while using those pellets and utilize your ground movements and move close to the comfort zone, or if you're quick enough, right under him which you can start having fun. Flamethrower is also a great tool to mix up the pressure you do to Megaman as it goes further then the lemons and gives you free damage. Just remember that a good Megaman player WILL mix up the options so it's just as important for you to be prepared for anything. Patience is part of playing against Megaman, keep on your toes at all times.

As for other things for the Megaman MU. I would say Megaman's best tool against Zard is his Uair which can juggle Zard easily. The Megaman player will probably be looking for this often so be cautious and keep that shield up and side step ready for both grabs and the U-air being used as a landing option. Right when you get in that comfort zone, don't let him get away. He will be using a number of 'get off of me' moves during that time, anticipate them and block them to keep up the pressure. Most of his close range moves are laggy enough to punish and he also has limited recovery tools to stand up to Flamethrower edgeguarding.

Megaman is definitely a little bit different to fight, but just take the time to learn what they like doing and what they dislike and practice a bit. Hope that helps. :3

 

[Knee Smasher]

I wonder why it is the case that my experience with Charizard's matchups against other characters is like completely the opposite of the general consensus here.

I find that Charizard VS. Fox is in Fox's favor, while Charizard VS. Captain Falcon and Pit is in Charizard's favor.

Anyway, I'd say Charizard's greatest strengths lie in the faculties of stage control, edgeguarding and killing, while his weaknesses lie in aerial mobility and the ending lag of some moves.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I wonder why it is the case that my experience with Charizard's matchups against other characters is like completely the opposite of the general consensus here.

I find that Charizard VS. Fox is in Fox's favor, while Charizard VS. Captain Falcon and Pit is in Charizard's favor.

Anyway, I'd say Charizard's greatest strengths lie in the faculties of stage control, edgeguarding and killing, while his weaknesses lie in aerial mobility and the ending lag of some moves.

Playing style perhaps?

What do you do against Fox, Falcon and Pit?

 

[mitchman77]

Playing style perhaps?

What do you do against Fox, Falcon and Pit?

i played a really good pit/fox on for glory. (for once a good player lol.) i found fox was no problem. however pit was very troublesome. he could catch me in the air with his aerials and combo me, and arrows to keep me out on the ground. i might need a secondary to deal with projectile users. luigi,pit duck hunt, etc any idea who i should use? im banking on villager.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Falcon isn't actually that hard to deal with if you don't try to challenge him up front. His boxing game is better than char's, but char has the tools to space him out with his areals and tilts, while making ground approaches a pain with fire.

Ditilt is especially useful against falcon. It sends him at a awkard angle off stage that makes it hard for him to recover. If he does happen to make it back, he's food for flamethrower gimps.


Fox sounds bad on paper, but char acutally has the tools to deal with fox's shananygans. His Lazers are unsafe against zard due to the rediculous lag fox has after using them. If you ever see fox shooting lazers, pay attention to if he likes to shoot more than 1 lazer at once. If he does, just flareblitz him on reaction and that's a free punish.

Similar to falcon, zard has the tools to space Fox out with tilts and areals, but unlike falcon Fox doesn't get as much out of grabs at low %. He doesn't juggle us that hard, but we do need to watch out for his utilt strings and jab 2 nonsense (you might be able to DI out and use fly. I'm not sure). Offstage fox is a bit harder to gimp, but he falls so fast that a good hit of Nair can knock him too far away to recover.

Foxes generally wont try to gimp zard offstage because their gimping game isn't the best. Make sure to mix up how you get up from the ledge and you should be fine.


I haven't palyed any good pits lately, so I can't really give any input there