different kind of tier list

[JeezImSoBored]

so i was bored and was thinking, from a lot of guides I see, the game generally breaks down to different parts (neutral, combo, shield game, edgeguard etc)

I'd like to see people make a list of rankings for different aspects of the game. I think the will help understand the strengths and weakness of each character relative to each other a little better.

some of the categories i mentioned might overlap with one another, and if there's more aspects of the game that i didn't mention feel free to add on.

so if people are bored and have time, i would like to see how they would rank each characters in terms of 1. neutral game 2. shield game 3. combo(not talking about how sexy the combo is, but how good it is for the sake of winning) 4. edgeguard 5. whatever more u want to talk about

 

[Blistering Speed]

There's already far, far too much tier list discussion in "Melee Discussion" at the moment.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

There's already far, far too much tier list discussion in "Melee Discussion" at the moment.

yeh but i think breaking things down is a lot easier than considering everything for ranking

 

[EpixAura]

So, while we're here, let's get unreasonably philosophical regarding the nature of tier lists for no apparent reason.
For example, what are tier lists based off of? How strong a character is in relation to the rest of the cast? How likely a character is to place well in a tournament assuming that all players are of equal skill and represent the top level of play? How strong a character 'could be' in relation to cast assuming that players have fully mastered every humanly possible technique?
I've been kind of curious for a while now.

 

[DrkRoxas]

The tier list evaluate the characters in a flawless environment, where every opportunity is taken advantage off, without the possibility of human mistake.
And I don't think no one has ever thought of separating tier lists into various tier lists like you said, but it's just not viable, you're giving some examples like shield game, edge guard and such, but those are not the only points, a lot of situations that can make a character do well come from his moveset and the priority it has over the rest, what are you going to do when it comes to which neutrals have priority over which? you'd end up with a tier list of every move against every move and that'd be just too troublesome, the idea of actual tierlists is to simplify everything into one game that uses all that character has to offer.

 

[EpixAura]

But a flawless environment like that doesn't exist in competitive play. That's why so many people are starting to consider Falco better than Fox, even though its a general consensus that without human error, Fox is the indisputable strongest. Basically, there has to be a cutoff point for 'what a character can do' and 'what people can do with a character.'
Furthermore, even if it's just a measure 'of how well a character can do' at the highest level of human play, there's still the question of situation. How well they can do in a tournament situation vs. how well they do against the other characters.

 

[DrkRoxas]

That's the thing, to measure something taking in account human capacities and error is very much harder and uncertain, someone can do well one time, and not another, there are many inconsistent pro players, that's why even though the tier lists reflect the result of a matchup being player at the same skill level taking at account everything, it's just that, an indicator, it's not a rule to who will win, the tierlists reflect who's the better character, not the better player with that character. That's why there's a lot of people who play low tier chars and still win. We can measure the potential of the character because it's programmed in the game.
There's a difference between taking the tierlist as a rule rather than just an information tool about the tools that char has.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

actually, i thought all tier list are based on tournament results ?

but anyways, when in my case, i'd just like to know the rankings you would give based on a practical/ humanly possible way

 

[DrkRoxas]

I might be wrong, I had that conception about what were tier list, but if it is as you say, made around tournament results, then it is already based on practical/humanly possible way, because it bases itself on how far those character get at tournaments, therefore, based on human execution.

 

[JeezImSoBored]

well if it's talking about maximum potential, i'm pretty sure yoshi will be ranked much higher btw

 

[Insom]

This is a good idea

 

[rjgbadger]

if you take away the cute factor, which you are in the list, sheik will be close to top