Demon Kings: 3 Experts Weigh in on Smash 4 Ganondorf

In the first official Smash 4 tier list, Ganondorf was voted to be only two spots away from the worst character in the game. While this is better than being the lowest-ranked fighter on the tier list as he was in Brawl, not much can be said on this improvement. Some have wondered if Ganondorf is truly the king of the bottom tier, citing his dominance of various power rankings and surprisingly high placements at certain tournaments. So what do those in the trenches battling with him as a main think of him? We brought three of the best Ganondorf mains to weigh in!

• Vermanubis - Considered the best NA Ganondorf in Brawl. Continues to find top three placements in Smash 4.
  
• Ray Kalm - Has innovated with Ganondorf since Brawl. Has top placements like EXP 2015 (4th), Summit 2015 (7th), and Smash Nexus.
  
• Opana - Has consistently placed top 3 in regionals and locals. Has used Ganondorf since the 3DS release.

So is there more to this King of Evil than meets the eye? Hold onto that Triforce of Power and read on to find out!

Disadvantages​

With the character being ranked so low by many players, it comes as no surprise that Ganondorf has some distinct weaknesses. All three experts agreed that his primary weakness comes from his approach game. "For a character to move so slow, and have such slow or short-ranged options out of a dash is kinda crazy," Opana told us. "Literally from the moment you hear go, it's a guessing game from start to finish, whether that be his approach or near-anything else he does."

This creates further problems against characters with a strong projectile game. "He could be completely walled out with projectiles. Very quick and hard-to-punish projectiles in particular give the opposing player very good control of the stage, and amplifies their neutral game," Ray Kalm explained.

Unfortunately, the issues with his approach do not stop there either. His lack of a strong out-of-shield option and good options to challenge shields also hurt him, as Vermanubis explains: "My most difficult matches are characterized by my opponent refusing to approach, and are compounded when they know to tech chokes or hold shield, forcing me to get in solely by way of tomahawking or getting lucky on a missed tech. Wouldn't be a problem if any given throw killed below 200% at max rage next to the ledge. Against a character like Ike who isn't hit by anything upon a missed tech and rolls too far to be hit by anything guaranteed, it's not uncommon for them to live to extreme percents; some of his only entry tools (Wizard's Kick, grabs, and choke) have no KO potential."

The list of weaknesses continues from there. "Aside from his approach issues and overall horrible mobility, he lacks a decent out-of-shield option; his recovery is very linear and easy to intercept; his kill options, while there are many, are unreliable; he gets comboed and juggled easily, and his frame data is overall pretty bad," Opana explained. "He doesn't really have any 'safe' moves," Vermanubis told us. "You, in essence, must correctly guess with virtually any move, otherwise you're likely to be effortlessly punished."

Advantages​

Nevertheless, do not be discouraged by all these weaknesses. Ganondorf wields the Triforce of Power and it gives him one of his biggest advantages: "His strength!" Vemanubis exclaimed. "Moreover, his strength's ability to command respect which opens up a lot of opportunities for manipulation and mix-ups. The unique thing, and furthermore, the enigma of Ganon, is that he possesses all of the tools to get the job done. He has moves so that he has at least one answer for any given option."

This power also adds to another of Ganondorf's biggest strengths, as Opana explains: "Ganondorf's biggest strength is definitely his punish game. Capitalizing on any window of opportunity can start a chain of momentum that turns the tide of battle in your favor. With the addition of rage and the new ledge mechanics, he won't be dying nearly as early while having much more potential to turn things around. Really, you can never count Ganondorf out. One good hit is often all he needs."

A Showcase By Z1GMA, Another Notable Ganondorf Main​

His edgeguarding ability and various strong tools also make him a force to be reckoned with. "His edge guarding is amazing, he has a frame 6 up aerial that covers nearly all around him, a strong, long-lasting hitbox in neutral aerial, a quick and effective killer in back aerial, a long-reaching powerful move in forward aerial that can beat out or trade with many things, and a highly effective meteor smash in down aerial," Opana said.

Relevant Matchups​

All three experts agreed on a trifecta of characters that stomp Ganondorf: Sheik, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus. "Sheik, unsurprisingly, just outruns us in every respect," Vemanubis told us. "Rosalina it seems at times was designed almost specifically to hard-counter Ganon. They're all winnable though."

However, this does not leave him without more manageable top tier matchups either. Both Opana and Vermanubis made mention of Mario and Ness. "Ganon still doesn't have the advantage," Opana made sure to explain, "but these are a lot more doable than the rest of the upper half of the roster."

Is Ganondorf Viable?​

The experts had mixed reactions. "I'd say no," said Ray Kalm. "Although he has a good or fair chance against most characters, national tournaments would more often consist of characters which could completely invalidate Ganon's viability. In locals though, there is a higher chance."

Opana was only slightly more optimistic: "Ganondorf on a national level is highly unlikely but entirely possible given the nature of his character. But it's not something I'd expect often if at all unless they have another character they're using as well. It's pretty unlikely to read people well enough to crack top 32 at a national; a lot of the time you just need better tools."

Vemanubis had this to say: "I want to preface my answer by saying that while it may seem strange to some, all this talk of how hard Ganon has it and how he has a hard time killing, I'd argue with no small conviction that a majority of people simply don't play the MU correctly. Ganons everywhere get away with, well... murder. This may make Ganon appear to some as more viable than he actually is. That being said...

Marginally. I think it's possible for Ganon to succeed on the national stage. I think he can win anything with the requisite perseverance and optimization. Only trouble is that, as I mentioned, Ganon is a fundamentally chancy character as it stands. With respect to what I mentioned about Ganon possessing the tools, but at high risk, he can win anything, but he has no particular consistent answers for any given thing. He has answers -- just not ones he won't pay for badly if he guesses wrong."

Advice for Ganondorf Mains?​

"Use Ganon if you like the character and enjoy his playstyle," Ray Kalm said. "It's possible for you to suddenly make game-turning results. Never give up during a match!"

Opana had this to add: "If you're interested in Ganondorf, I'd start studying your matches, win or lose, as they often can be insightful when you ask yourself things such as, 'Why didn't this work?' and 'What could I have done better in this situation?'. Pretty much just learn from and iron out your mistakes and keep on the lookout for more. But study the matchups too! Reviewing your games is a valuable resource not just for learning from mistakes but learning key things in matchups. Knowledge will often be your strongest tool with Ganondorf; it's essential to playing him well. It can be the difference between winning and losing, so always try to learn new things!"

Need more advice? As Vermanubis so eloquently put it, "Go forth and drink deep the life of those who would rebel against the King.

Ganon is the strangest character I've ever seen in a fighting game -- the quantum qharacter, as it were -- being simultaneously in a state of being able to win magnificently and lose splendidly. He's an engine more than anything: he's only as effective as the player behind him, which I adore and think is a credit to him as a character with some of the greatest creative capacity in the game.

As you progress your Ganon game, you'll notice that the heavy hits are no longer the centerpiece of his functioning. Instead, concrete fundamentals, understanding of options, and the ability to effectively and swiftly categorize your opponent's behaviors to minimize wasteful movement and decisions are what will win you matches. You have to be intensely critical of your imperfections as a player, and furthermore, you can't encumber yourself with the mindset that you lost because of Ganon. The King demands nothing less than perfection, and perfection alone will do!"

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A special thank you to @Opana, @Vermanubis, and @Ray_Kalm for giving their expertise for this article. To learn more about Smash 4 Ganondorf, be sure to check out the Ganondorf Forums right here on Smashboards!

Agree or disagree with these Ganondorf experts? Have a suggestion for the next character we should cover? Sound off in the comments below and stay tuned to Smashboards for future expert analysis on characters from all Smash titles!

 

One of the perks of most of the bottom tiers in this game is that most of them benefit from match up ignorance. Ganon, Dedede, Palutena, and Samus are fairly intimidating if you don't know how to fight them and I feel like this is a long distance from low and bottom tiers in Melee and Brawl where you could usually wing it and do just fine against competent players. Of these four, Ganon probably benefits from this the most and, of the current low and bottom tiers, the only other character who is more likely steamroll you if you don't know what you're doing is Little Mac. Ganon's rarely more than two strong hits away from taking a stock and hard reads for this character are especially rewarding.

D3 I think benefits most from MU ignorance. You need to be aware of his spacing tools, what he can and can't punish, and how to deal with Gordos and ledgetraps. Every character benefits from MU ignorance but D3 has a lot of weird things you need to know when fighting him that you get brutally punished for not knowing, moreso than the others.

 

This was an excellent read, well done!

I would also add that one of Ganon's strengths is that he has surprising options and movement. He doesn't have good range or good movement, but he has moves that reach farther than it seems they should, and movement options that seem impossible. Auto-cancelling, ledge cancelling, IASA frames, and buffering isn't anything new, but Ganon stands to gain 2-5 times as many frames as other characters in these situations. Even those who know the matchup pretty well still tend to miss out on tons of these tiny details with Ganon. Apply this to stage knowledge and usage and the options compound even further from there.

Also, great to see @Opana getting some recognition. He's come so far within the last year, it's insane. I mean, he was good even back then, but no where near as consistent or commanding as he is now. He's got some great montages up on youtube displaying weird options and nutty movement.

 

ganondorf be like "you are no longer of use hero of wind"

And im like "have you seen how bad this guy is? he needs every bit of help!"

 

I'll never regret sticking to him in Smash 4 even if I've branched off into other playable mains as well. You are pushed to master and understand the meta just to survive, and then build a terrifying read game if you want to win consistently which transfers really well to any character. And, he's by far the most fun ditto for me without a second thought. He's perfect for people who can stomach hard mode and pull the trigger. But man, what an uphill battle it can be, sometimes you crash and burn and sometimes you just go through all the right doors and pull off stuff that shouldn't be allowed. All respect (and disrespect) to any Ganon players.

 

I absolutely disagree with Ganon's tier placing. The stigma against him is palpable, and laughable. He's no high tier, or even middle mid-tier but he's no bottom feeder either.

 

Great article as always, this is honestly my favorite series by you. I'd love to see you cover Melee Mewtwo (might be hard because extremely under reped) or Smash 4 Yoshi like @Yikarur suggested.

 

Not really. Not at all.

The ideology that Ganon has to be so slow, lack multihits and have extremely punishable lag on just about everything is what damns him in particular. There are a billion things I could point to - how about his jab? It's too high off the ground to hit certain characters (it didn't have to be animated like that), it's too slow out of shield, it poorly sets up any sort of advantagous scenario like other jabs do. Everything about it is bad and it seems to embody the broken philosophy on which the character is designed. Yep, it hits harder! But it fails to perform an essential function in which all characters in this game require to be balanced against one another. Jabs, Tilts, Smashes, Grabs. They're critical spacing tools, most characters have them or a move to substitute for them. But not G.

That's kind of what I was getting at here. If ganon had a moveset that captured more of his character, he wouldn't be as bad of a fighter(then again, I could be wrong). That's a recurring theme that I see with certain characters in smash, there isn't enough emphasis on what the character is known for in their franchises. For example, Wario has too many moves based on his WarioWare microgame series than his Wario Land series he's truly known for. Also the same can be said for Donkey Kong. If he had the ability to throw barrels as a side-b instead of his burying headbutt, he would be able to perform better as a fighter; despite being mid-tier which I am surprised and happy about. But overall, regardless of ganon's brute strength, there needs to be more than just him being labeled as the "disrespect character".

 

Please do DDD next please.

 

That's kind of what I was getting at here. If ganon had a moveset that captured more of his character, he wouldn't be as bad of a fighter(then again, I could be wrong). That's a recurring theme that I see with certain characters in smash, there isn't enough emphasis on what the character is known for in their franchises. For example, Wario has too many moves based on his WarioWare microgame series than his Wario Land series he's truly known for. Also the same can be said for Donkey Kong. If he had the ability to throw barrels as a side-b instead of his burying headbutt, he would be able to perform better as a fighter; despite being mid-tier which I am surprised and happy about. But overall, regardless of ganon's brute strength, there needs to be more than just him being labeled as the "disrespect character".

We could talk all day about how much better a character could be. The fact of the matter is that Ganon would remain a slow character with poor frame data and mobility. These are properties characteristic of heavies and whether or not his moveset remained faithful to his game he would likely still be a low tier for those reasons.