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Death in Creativity

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Lythium

underachiever
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Halifax, Nova Scotia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

Don’t skip that, it’s integral to the post!

A few months ago, staying at my mom’s house overnight, I found a box full of journals from my childhood. Kindergarten right up to grades 3 or 4. Every other day or so, we had to write. At the beginning, I couldn’t. Everything was misspelled and the sentences were 4 words at best. So, I drew. I drew people and houses and animals and clouds and the pages were filled with notes from my teachers like ‘this is beautiful!’ and ‘your pictures are so lovely, Katie!’. Flash-forward a few years and they get progressively less encouraging. ‘Maybe you should work on your journal more’ and ‘this picture is nice, but you should try to write.’ My response was to come up with simple rhyming poems or stories about Sailor Moon. Again, I got ‘great story, but why don’t you write about your weekend?’

I can’t tell now if she was annoyed or just incredulous.

In the fourth grade, they pulled me out of public school, stuck me on Ritalin and sent me to an institute for the gifted. They were big on that in Ontario at the time; the program has since been demolished, as has the school. But in the fourth grade, I was in a new world. Somehow convinced that I had preternatural intelligence which was inhibited by my inability to sit still or stop drawing, the doctors of the nineties drugged me into a creativity-free stupor. Suddenly, I was brilliant at math. Unclouded by the need to procrastinate by dancing, drawing, writing, or reading poetry, I calculate for hours. One of the few white lower-middle-class students in a school dominated by Asians and well-to-do whiz kids, I zipped ahead. The only thing holding me back was a newfound resentment. I didn’t understand it then, but my imagination had been put on mute. All I had were numbers and grammar and facts.

It’s a story that spans twenty years so far, but the struggle is as disconcerting as ever. In high school I was completely incapable of fitting in, so my mom’s bank-approved psychiatrist prescribed me a sister to Ritalin which would surely give me the edge I needed and keep me from bouncing off the walls. It worked. Within two months, I was three weeks ahead in my math class. I would stay up at night just reading textbooks and researching the life cycle of cicadas. I had my genius back.

I couldn’t draw a stick figure to save my life.

Take the red pill, spend your life waiting tables to support makeup and photography and writing. Take the blue pill, go to university and medicate yourself into freakish intellect.

Topics for Discussion:
  • Do schools kill creativity?
  • Is medication a necessity for education?
  • Do education systems need to become experimental to become more creative?
  • How can education embrace creativity?

Please discuss.
 

RDK

Smash Hero
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Messages
6,390
Schools kill a lot of things; curiosity is another big one. Children should just be children--there's no point in forcing kids to write about something as boring as how their weekend went when they want to write about something that excites them.

Then again, this all depends on how strict the school is. And sorry to hear about your situation; that sounds awful.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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They wanted to drug me but my dad wouldn't let them but he ended up killing my creativivity in art and music by telling me I wasn't good or something at a young age. I think schools are a part of it with tv, my brother is 6 and he can't even think of anything to do outside vs me I can think of a hundred things to make something fun, just by me opening a jar of jam he has more fun than the whole day of watching tv.

Do education systems need to become experimental to become more creative?
Yes it gives them a chance to find new things and they may even think it's fun vs paper work

How can education embrace creativity?
Let them try something new or choose something or let them see new ways to do something new


I just remembered something. When hitler was young and wasn't evil or anything he wanted to be an artist more than anything in the world his parents couldn't afford it, he had some good art work too and you can look up his paintings
 

Lythium

underachiever
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Schools kill a lot of things; curiosity is another big one. Children should just be children--there's no point in forcing kids to write about something as boring as how their weekend went when they want to write about something that excites them.

Then again, this all depends on how strict the school is. And sorry to hear about your situation; that sounds awful.
Thanks for your sympathy, RDK. I shared my story to spark a debate, so let's debate! How do schools kill curiosity? In my opinion, schools place a negative stigma of failure in children. As Ken Robinson states in the video, children are not afraid of making mistakes. More importantly, is this a reflection of our society? A need for perfection?

Do education systems need to become experimental to become more creative?
Yes it gives them a chance to find new things and they may even think it's fun vs paper work

How can education embrace creativity?
Let them try something new or choose something or let them see new ways to do something new
Would society accept this changes? Are we too ingrained to believe that creativity is fun, but not important? Does society attach any value to the arts?
 

CRASHiC

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Haiti Gonna Hait
Schools on the secondary level teach people how to exist and conform to function in society. Both of these goals damage and directly damage creativity.

Do education systems need to become experimental to become more creative? How can education embrace creativity?

Yes. Rochester, one of the leading departments of music education, has completely abandoned the traditional college major system, and allows students to create their own major. This free system allows art students to pursue their own personal education, something that is a necessity for art students.

Would society accept this changes? Are we too ingrained to believe that creativity is fun, but not important? Does society attach any value to the arts?

I believe we do attach some importance. In the 1800s, American superstars were rich entrepreneurs. they filled the tabloids with stories of their affairs and parties. Now, in modern times, actors and musicians are the focus of the public eye. We still do not go so far as to view a child chasing after an art major as a parents dream, but we have already progressed immensely in the last 200 years.
 

Neisan

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Arkansas
I'd have to say that yes, schools beyond around grade 3 or 4 do start "killing" creativity. They're trying to teach Math, Science, English, History, and by doing that in a set manner, and with formulas in math, they're encouraging you to do things in a set way, every time. Even in art classes, the teachers teach you a way to do the assignment and normally grade you on if you do it their way. But I don't think schools are the main cause of this. Moreso society.

At around puberty (or less) society is told to "grow up". Your new main focus is probably college, sports, or one of the like. You might do fine arts such as band or choir, but they're no longer a focus really. In fact, society shuns the majority of it. Negative stereotypes (most not true, but there), focus on other things such as sports, and just overall telling you to adapt with your peers. Not a bad thing certainly, it allows you to get along well, and hopefully hold a job. But in doing so, they hurt the creative process and discourage most thoughts, whether they be creative, "smart", or anything that breaks the cultural boundaries of the area.

Point in case: Society tells kid to grow up, be normal, kid does so, kid loses the "kiddish creativity" that they once had.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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Would society accept this changes?
Are we too ingrained to believe that creativity is fun, but not important?
Does society attach any value to the arts?
Some schools will if they see it helping the kids

Well that's one of the things that holding every great idea back is people are dumb (in general) not saying I am better but people don't like to change even if not changing will kill them cough smoking cough cought global warming cough aids cough etc.

people love the arts even the art that isn't to creative
 

~ARES

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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78
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  • How can education embrace creativity?
Many of us are speaking of personal creativity, nurturing artistic talent and how the school system is "killing" creativity by following a set path in education. Predictably, I agree to most of the debaters in here, but we also need to analyze exactly how difficult this is to practically implement. The school system didn't just decide to be uncreative and linear, with little room for originality or imagination; it was the logical and realistic choice.

Logistics is one of the biggest reasons the majority of the school system is the way it is. Teaching is hardly personalized, as any curriculum has to be accessible to the other twenty-nine (or however many) students in a certain child's class. Just look at the ratio of teachers to students in public schools... a teacher can't realistically expected to individually analyze each student's work and nurture that creativity while attending to the other students' same needs. How can this be addressed? I can't see any overhaul of the school system that would facilitate this, and it would surely be difficult and revolutionary.


At around puberty (or less) society is told to "grow up". Your new main focus is probably college, sports, or one of the like. You might do fine arts such as band or choir, but they're no longer a focus really. In fact, society shuns the majority of it. Negative stereotypes (most not true, but there), focus on other things such as sports, and just overall telling you to adapt with your peers. Not a bad thing certainly, it allows you to get along well, and hopefully hold a job. But in doing so, they hurt the creative process and discourage most thoughts, whether they be creative, "smart", or anything that breaks the cultural boundaries of the area.

Point in case: Society tells kid to grow up, be normal, kid does so, kid loses the "kiddish creativity" that they once had.
This, on the other hand, is a different and equally valid reason. A school system is obviously a product of its society. This is an incredibly complicated problem, since it is a network of countless individuals with their own bias, experience and personality. Some kids are lucky and are born to parents who encourage they follow whatever their child chooses to aim for, then get paired with the teacher who recognizes the creativity of his or her students and incorporates that into his teaching style. They meet equally ambitious and imaginative friends. They grow, learn and flourish, and become our future's innovators.

But this is exceedingly rare, and there are many polar opposites; parents who want their children to play sports instead of study math, or study math instead of drawing and painting, or draw and paint instead of play sports. They get paired with the dull teacher who, despite being a complete lack-wit, is qualified to be a teacher due to the homogenized and linear schooling system (and no reason otherwise). Other children, shaped by the opinions of their parents, teachers and friends, further discourage any "out of the norm" (and often creative) daydreaming.

These are obviously extreme ends of a spectrum, but every child will fall somewhere on this scale. Unfortunately, chances are you won't be coupled with the perfect combination. And even more unfortunately, just one of these negative catalysts can effectively stunt a child's creative ambition.


I just remembered something. When hitler was young and wasn't evil or anything he wanted to be an artist more than anything in the world his parents couldn't afford it, he had some good art work too and you can look up his paintings
It wasn't a money issue, actually; Hitler was just rejected. Twice! I believe he discusses this in Mein Kampf, but I'm not sure... it's been a while since I've read it. (AP European History?) Sorry if this is irrelevant nit-picking. :laugh:




Like I said, I agree with most of this board. I find myself doing this really often, but our unified opinion isn't easy to implement. Hopefully our solutions in possibly incorporating this into our schools might spark opposing debate. :p
 

Neisan

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
37
Location
Arkansas
Many of us are speaking of personal creativity, nurturing artistic talent and how the school system is "killing" creativity by following a set path in education. Predictably, I agree to most of the debaters in here, but we also need to analyze exactly how difficult this is to practically implement. The school system didn't just decide to be uncreative and linear, with little room for originality or imagination; it was the logical and realistic choice.

Logistics is one of the biggest reasons the majority of the school system is the way it is. Teaching is hardly personalized, as any curriculum has to be accessible to the other twenty-nine (or however many) students in a certain child's class. Just look at the ratio of teachers to students in public schools... a teacher can't realistically expected to individually analyze each student's work and nurture that creativity while attending to the other students' same needs. How can this be addressed? I can't see any overhaul of the school system that would facilitate this, and it would surely be difficult and revolutionary.




This, on the other hand, is a different and equally valid reason. A school system is obviously a product of its society. This is an incredibly complicated problem, since it is a network of countless individuals with their own bias, experience and personality. Some kids are lucky and are born to parents who encourage they follow whatever their child chooses to aim for, then get paired with the teacher who recognizes the creativity of his or her students and incorporates that into his teaching style. They meet equally ambitious and imaginative friends. They grow, learn and flourish, and become our future's innovators.

But this is exceedingly rare, and there are many polar opposites; parents who want their children to play sports instead of study math, or study math instead of drawing and painting, or draw and paint instead of play sports. They get paired with the dull teacher who, despite being a complete lack-wit, is qualified to be a teacher due to the homogenized and linear schooling system (and no reason otherwise). Other children, shaped by the opinions of their parents, teachers and friends, further discourage any "out of the norm" (and often creative) daydreaming.

These are obviously extreme ends of a spectrum, but every child will fall somewhere on this scale. Unfortunately, chances are you won't be coupled with the perfect combination. And even more unfortunately, just one of these negative catalysts can effectively stunt a child's creative ambition.




It wasn't a money issue, actually; Hitler was just rejected. Twice! I believe he discusses this in Mein Kampf, but I'm not sure... it's been a while since I've read it. (AP European History?) Sorry if this is irrelevant nit-picking. :laugh:
I'm in agreement there, sadly, there really isn't anything to do to help this other than maybe increase funding to fine arts and creative programs and possibly decrease a bit from the sports. In our district at least, fine arts gets a 35,000 dollar budget for 5 schools. On the other hand, Sports get over a million.
 

~ARES

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I'm in agreement there, sadly, there really isn't anything to do to help this other than maybe increase funding to fine arts and creative programs and possibly decrease a bit from the sports. In our district at least, fine arts gets a 35,000 dollar budget for 5 schools. On the other hand, Sports get over a million.
I think the fine arts community of my district is actually well-funded, but I knew this was far from the norm. An increase in creative programs won't hurt at all, but it still leaves too many problems for creativity in school. It's a logistical and society mindset issue. As difficult as they both seem, I think overcoming the cultural discouragement might be nigh impossible to actively change.

Society is a constantly evolving organism, though. If we look at the advancements of society, I wouldn't count out a school system the Proving Grounds would approve of in the next, say, two or three decades. :)
 

Neisan

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I think the fine arts community of my district is actually well-funded, but I knew this was far from the norm. An increase in creative programs won't hurt at all, but it still leaves too many problems for creativity in school. It's a logistical and society mindset issue. As difficult as they both seem, I think overcoming the cultural discouragement might be nigh impossible to actively change.

Society is a constantly evolving organism, though. If we look at the advancements of society, I wouldn't count out a school system the Proving Grounds would approve of in the next, say, two or three decades. :)
I'm in agreement on that. It's a societal issue, and not one that we can actively change. It's almost like a (much) smaller scale racism issue. Obviously not the major similarities, it's not a right issue, but I mean in the way that it will take time to get over if we ever find some kind of issue.

And hopefully :). Quite a few problems with the school system. Ooh, sounds like a good topic.
 

~ARES

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I'm in agreement on that. It's a societal issue, and not one that we can actively change. It's almost like a (much) smaller scale racism issue. Obviously not the major similarities, it's not a right issue, but I mean in the way that it will take time to get over if we ever find some kind of issue.

And hopefully :). Quite a few problems with the school system. Ooh, sounds like a good topic.
Yep, there's a parallel. In our eyes, society might seem like it's changing slowly, but it's actually evolving quite quickly. Centuries of slavery of African peoples have existed, and in a fraction of that, they are equal citizens. Of course it's not perfect, but I'm sure you see the point.

And indeed, it'd make a good topic. When our topics slow down in the Proving Grounds, we could do that one.
 

pacmansays

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357
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I think this is a hard issue as creativity is a personal ability that you can't really teach, but schools can help nurture it.

A problem I find with the system is many teachers (though I don't blame them for this) teach for the exam, there job is to get the student a decent grade and if you've got a good teacher then they'll also teach skills for your next level of school/work. Creativity rarely emerges from this situation as they will simply work to the confines of the syllabus and exam requirements, that is both pupil and teacher.

But, I think its bad to generalise that schools do or don't promote creativity, even a school in general. I go to a school deemed by the government a 'school of creativity' and there is a vast difference in creativity coming from the different departments. For example, music is terrible both gradewise and creativity wise (though there is a slow improvement) while the media department excels in its grades and probably promotes more creativity than other departments.

How could we help promote creativity in schools? There's no absolute way, if there was then how could there be creativity which isn't absolute itself?

I'm very creative but all this came from home: when I was young my drawings were praised or criticised, I was taken to galleries and my creative work was encouraged, causing me to make more. In school I did not take many creative options as I found them too limiting and they might destroy 'my style' of work. But this school can be good by allowing people the access to creative outlets: dancing, filmmaking, writing and music clubs exist and I joined many of those.

One way I can guarantee will promote creativity is by inspiration: don't teach someone how great an artist is or there importance, but inspire them from his work
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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It wasn't a money issue, actually; Hitler was just rejected. Twice! I believe he discusses this in Mein Kampf, but I'm not sure... it's been a while since I've read it. (AP European History?) Sorry if this is irrelevant nit-picking. :laugh:
No it's important I know vs not knowing and looking dumb, so thank you

pacmansays
I have never been inspired by anyone other than myself(WTF) or have a hero or envy someone, but I think that is a great idea and maybe there is a way to work this in with math and junk
 

pacmansays

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pacmansays
I have never been inspired by anyone other than myself(WTF) or have a hero or envy someone, but I think that is a great idea and maybe there is a way to work this in with math and junk

Well my film studies teacher was talking about her 14-15 year old media class who recently went to a filmmaking university and saw a bunch of professional filmmakers teach them about filmmaking and equipment for a day. Similarly, when I was in film club a professional documentary maker came in for a day where we had to help make him his film.

The second case of course helped me, but the first the teacher said made her class more focused, passionate, well behaved and interested in her lessons.

I don't have a hero either (though a few people I admire) but I believe the art is what is important not the person behind it
 

Neisan

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No it's important I know vs not knowing and looking dumb, so thank you
Just to add to that, it was an art school. When he was rejected, he ended up in the jewish ghettos. He also started to listen to a speaker in Germany that heavily influenced him. That lead to hatred so...
Blame the art school for the holocaust :p
 

pacmansays

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Just to add to that, it was an art school. When he was rejected, he ended up in the jewish ghettos. He also started to listen to a speaker in Germany that heavily influenced him. That lead to hatred so...
Blame the art school for the holocaust :p

LOL, also being caused leading to brain damage at the end of the 1st world war
 
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