Dealing with Zoners

[KingKilik]

Do you guys have any general advice on learning to approach? My biggest issues right now are Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, and Villager, but any overall tips on getting in would be appreciated.

 

[Ecchin]

With those characters i use a lot of dash shielding and aerials like nair or fair and try to grab them

 

[ThatManMa]

Dashing sheilds and approaching with nair is typically what I do. If they know to shield grab your nair approach, do an empty hop and grab them on the landing if you can.

 

[Sol0ke]

Remember that Ike's aerials can eat projectiles this time around if I'm not mistaken.

 

[SimplyClutchh]

Just came off about 10 fg matches against different Samuses, Lucarios, and Links. I've definitely been running into a lot of zoners.

For other options besides nairs, fairs, and dash shielding, I usually react to their actions and punish accordingly. They like to roll into corners and start blasting at you, so I sh/dash shield up to them close enough to punish their roll range. Once you get close, they get a little scared and start rolling. Punish their rolls with grabs, dtilts, bairs, and nairs depending on your spacing. Every now and then, you can also mix it up by catching their rolls with qd, but that gets a little risky.

 

[Zenpie]

What is an empty hop?

 

[Red5_snt]

You jump towards the opponent and don't attack. Basically a fake out.

 

[Zenpie]

Okay, thanks.

 

[payasofobia]

Do you guys have any general advice on learning to approach? My biggest issues right now are Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, and Villager, but any overall tips on getting in would be appreciated.

You run, you jump, you perfect shield, you learn how to spot-dodge. And stay close.

Those are the only defenses you have, and the only ones you'll ever need with so many predictable projectiles.

Seriously, if you are not putting the pressure, you are just asking for unnecessary damage.

 

[DarkDeity15]

They won't just let you in for free though. Depending on the character and playstyle your opponent is using, a lot of times their goal is either to keep you out and rack up damage, get a conversion off of a hit, or to force an approach to punish. Your goal here is to find some way around this. Let it be power shielding, spot dodging, or just flat out weaving through those projectiles (Link's bombs bounce off of your shield, so try grabbing them out of the air and chucking them back before he does, same with Peach's turnips I think).

Empty hops for a reaction up close is useful as well, like previously said. Grounded quickdarws are pretty much useless for the most part unless your goal is to eat a projectile or two, especially if you're sitting there charging it. If your in that sort of situation against a good Link, expect to be punished hard, because rangs and bombs are a big part of his combo game.

I play someone named Ultima who mains Ike and empty hops all the time. Even I can be fooled by it sometimes and a laggy move like Link's Fsmash can get me punished. If I know what you're up to though, I'll usually just take a sep back or try to throw a Zair at your face. Basically what I'm saying here is, empty hops can get old if you try to abuse it against a smarter player.

 

[KingKilik]

They won't just let you in for free though. Depending on the character and playstyle your opponent is using, a lot of times their goal is either to keep you out and rack up damage, get a conversion off of a hit, or to force an approach to punish.

It's generally the forced approachs that I have problems with.

 

[XDaDePsak]

You run, you jump, you perfect shield, you learn how to spot-dodge. And stay close.

Those are the only defenses you have, and the only ones you'll ever need with so many predictable projectiles.

Seriously, if you are not putting the pressure, you are just asking for unnecessary damage.

what is spot dodge?

 

[FatMagic]

This was a very helpful post, thank you. I've been struggling with zoners. But getting aggressive in their face, and forcing them to retreat and stay out of the corner makes the difference so far. Also, I'm playing at a much lower level of difficulty in my FG matches.

 

[EvilShadow777]

It's generally the forced approachs that I have problems with.

I find that the key to a good approach is a mix up. Your options are usually short hop nairs/fairs, pivoted ftilts/dtilts/jabs, and a dash grab/pivot grab if they shield.

The key is to read the pattern on their projectiles and to adjust accordingly. Heck something that will likely work is a counter or a shield grab/attack bait in between your approaches.

Someone like ROB/Samus can be horrible to fight since not only do they have great projectile game but also moderate - long attack ranges. If you rush your approach they can punish you even in your proper space so always mind exactly what options they have as you go in.

 

[Aninymouse]

People look down on ROB, but ROB is a monster in capable hands. I feel like I want to pick up a third character, since both DK and Ike struggle so much with rushdown and projectile spam... or at least, I do, if Ike doesn't.

 

[Twizman]

Just had a really tough time with Villager online, I'll just work on the dash shield and better spaced aerials then.

 

[Yoh]

Villager online is a pain, offline it´s okay.
But he´s still kinda annoying. Another matchup where Ike eats a lot of %, but kills earlier.

Isn´t shielding out of a dash worse here than in brawl? I feel like I have to do it earlier or something is different about it.

 

[genesis_SOC]

I personally find shielding out of dash is easier, I perfect shield projectiles as I dash approach all the time online without even meaning to lol.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

As a Link main (and Ike Secondary/Former Brawl main) I can tell you that if a Link player is zoning, KEEP pressure on him. Dash at him, block his arrows, wait for him to throw his bombs, etc. Honestly that goes for all zoners you might come across. Link's an exception to the rule though because he doesn't have zone anymore so be careful with Link's because they can all play very differently.

When you're up against a dedicated zoner (usually Samus's and people who spam projectiles), chances are the guy has a very mediocre close game. Use that to your advantage with Ike's quick jabs, d-tilt, and n-airs. If the zoner feels brave and tries to fight back (which they will), throw in the counter! Don't forget the d-smash either cus zoners like to roll.

 

[FatMagic]

When you're up against a dedicated zoner (usually Samus's and people who spam projectiles), chances are the guy has a very mediocre close game. Use that to your advantage with Ike's quick jabs, d-tilt, and n-airs. If the zoner feels brave and tries to fight back (which they will), throw in the counter! Don't forget the d-smash either cus zoners like to roll.

Yeah man, I could not touch a Samus the other day. Just balled around the stage. Drove me bonkers. I tried to keep playing against the Samus just so I could try and learn a strat to beat her, couldn't do it. Ended up just leaving that matchup after 10 losses in a row.

But again, I'm a very very new Smash player, so I don't have all the basics down solid like you guys do.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Yeah man, I could not touch a Samus the other day. Just balled around the stage. Drove me bonkers. I tried to keep playing against the Samus just so I could try and learn a strat to beat her, couldn't do it. Ended up just leaving that matchup after 10 losses in a row.

But again, I'm a very very new Smash player, so I don't have all the basics down solid like you guys do.

Down smash is perfect for a roller. Especially when Samus has a very slow and readible roll. And you probably weren't blocking projectiles. Don't be too aggressive against a zoner because they'll blast you away.

One thing to learn since you're new. Rolling is a bad habit. Against higher tier players, rolling is just a free hit, or even worse, a combo. Block and Dodge (down-block) are your absolute best friends. It's tough but try to resist the urge to roll so much.... especially rolling into your enemy.

Keep practicing, you'll get it. This game is a lot more than dash attacks and forward smashes.

 

[FatMagic]

Down smash is perfect for a roller. Especially when Samus has a very slow and readible roll. And you probably weren't blocking projectiles. Don't be too aggressive against a zoner because they'll blast you away.

One thing to learn since you're new. Rolling is a bad habit. Against higher tier players, rolling is just a free hit, or even worse, a combo. Block and Dodge (down-block) are your absolute best friends. It's tough but try to resist the urge to roll so much.... especially rolling into your enemy.

Keep practicing, you'll get it. This game is a lot more than dash attacks and forward smashes.

Down smash for rollers, OK cool. That is helpful. I need to practice that. I very rarely use downsmash. Because of my skill level, I play against alot of people who roll (block-right-left-move?) around the stage. I myself do some of the same. But as Ike, I tend to be more on the offensive (chasing zoners), so I don't roll as much as a Samus.

The one thing I really struggle with is grabbing people, man that is hard, and makes you so open when you whiff it. But everyone grabs me perfectly! :-X

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Down smash for rollers, OK cool. That is helpful. I need to practice that. I very rarely use downsmash. Because of my skill level, I play against alot of people who roll (block-right-left-move?) around the stage. I myself do some of the same. But as Ike, I tend to be more on the offensive (chasing zoners), so I don't roll as much as a Samus.

The one thing I really struggle with is grabbing people, man that is hard, and makes you so open when you whiff it. But everyone grabs me perfectly! :-X

Dash-grabbing helps with that... Like hitting the grab button while running. It helps you slide up to the guy and grab for more consistency. Unfortunately, I don't make much use of grab because of my main's terrible ending lag on a miss but if Im up against a shield-heavy opponent I'm much more confident.

The key is closing the distance with zoners so you're doing a great job in that regard. Closing the distance with short hops and air dodges (block while in the air) is a key strategy in doing just that. Timing is everything.

 

[Dinotard]

This was a very helpful post, thank you. I've been struggling with zoners. But getting aggressive in their face, and forcing them to retreat and stay out of the corner makes the difference so far. Also, I'm playing at a much lower level of difficulty in my FG matches.

I'm in the same boat as you man, I'm pretty new and Zoners just get me mad, it feels very satisfying getting in their face but I know the issues that you face, I enjoy Ike and I don't wanna drop him but It does get difficult.