Dealing with Marth in neutral?

[MrWeavile]

I've always found this the most difficult and somewhat arbitrary part of the matchup, but I have a problem dealing with Marth dash dance camping waiting for a mis-spaced approach. Usually I'd sit away and shoot some lasers, but Marth closing the space is something I can't deal with a lot of the time, since it seems he has the majority of control in what happens next in the situation; a grab, fair, dtilt, nair or just dash dancing by me is what throws me off.

Are there any tells or signs to look out for to at least stabilize the situation?

 

[vynleren]

Run away until the Marth over extends and whiffs a laggy move; use platforms to get away from dash dance and tech chases. Punish bad committals with drill-shine/nair-shine/upthrow aerial etc.

Don't approach when he's ready for you, but don't sit still either. You need to be dash-dancing and trying to stay fluid and unpredictable so he doesn't get free approaches.

I wouldn't shoot lasers unless you are across the stage - Marth can close distance quickly and has many options to punish greedy lasers.

I'm no expert but these are some things I keep in mind when playing against Marth.

 

[Ninjagamer1234]

I've always found this the most difficult and somewhat arbitrary part of the matchup, but I have a problem dealing with Marth dash dance camping waiting for a mis-spaced approach. Usually I'd sit away and shoot some lasers, but Marth closing the space is something I can't deal with a lot of the time, since it seems he has the majority of control in what happens next in the situation; a grab, fair, dtilt, nair or just dash dancing by me is what throws me off.

Are there any tells or signs to look out for to at least stabilize the situation?

Just as the Vynleren guy said I always wait for the Marth to throw out a move and then punish

 

[AscendantAquila]

SHDL is not very useful in this matchup and SHL is only moderately useful because as stated before, Marth can close the distance and punish unsafe lasers. Honestly, the key to the beating Marth is having lots of patience and I find that this matchup especially, its incredibly important to figure out the Marth's tendencies just because of the fact it's hard to challenge his range. Mah0ne's Puff guide had a very useful though from Mango that it is incredibly useful for this matchup

These are mango's thoughts on camping:
Before I start all of this.. I got one thing to say..Once there was a great man named Gimpyfish who told me something..That Changed my life =). He said "u dont have to go to him if u dont want him". Which means is like when someone is camping u dont have to go to them all the time. JUST BE PATIENT!!! and keep ur spacing people!

Marth punishes incredibly hard so mindless pressuring will ultimately lead to something bad for Fox. That's not to say that you can't pressure as Fox combos, edgeguards, and punishes Marth pretty hard, it's just that you have to be very safe with the pressure, so things like cross up Dair, Nair, Bair into whatever is useful and can force some shield snipes. If your opponent doesn't angle shield that much (For Marth's sake he does) it is very possible to shield poke with an aerial string, Dairshine, Nairshine, into a combo. Learn Uthrow -> Uair as it is also a very big and useful punish.

Just play smart, safe, and very patient and you should do much better against Marth, and keep in mind that it is a very tricky matchup to play.

 

[Catchy]

Are there any negatives to using shdl instead of shl? Also this matchup requires a lot of patience from both sides! Just takes practice. Follow the above.

 

[Catchy]

Run away until the Marth over extends and whiffs a laggy move; use platforms to get away from dash dance and tech chases. Punish bad committals with drill-shine/nair-shine/upthrow aerial etc.

I thought nair shine into combo wasn't safe (outside of shield at least) because they can act quickly since they get hit by the shine while in the air.

 

[AscendantAquila]

SHDL leaves you more vulnerable than SHL because, you probably know this, Short Hop -> Laser -> Fastfall -> Land while SHDL is Short Hop -> Laser x2 -> Land. SHDL does more damage usually but requires more space, I prefer to SHL because even though the difference seems small it is still sometimes enough for Marth to sneak in a hit or grab. It's kinda like the difference between Fastfalling aerials, it's a safer option and against Marth you don't want to be vulnerable a whole lot.

 

[Cool]

SHDL leaves you more vulnerable than SHL because, you probably know this, Short Hop -> Laser -> Fastfall -> Land while SHDL is Short Hop -> Laser x2 -> Land. SHDL does more damage usually but requires more space, I prefer to SHL because even though the difference seems small it is still sometimes enough for Marth to sneak in a hit or grab. It's kinda like the difference between Fastfalling aerials, it's a safer option and against Marth you don't want to be vulnerable a whole lot.

Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of the time Mango will just SHL.

 

[Catchy]

Oh wow I feel so silly for not remembering that. I always utilized shdl because I thought it was better objectively over all. Thank you, I will shl much more now.

 

[King Mob]

Shdl, Marth approaches. Dash back and whiff punish if you think he wants to hit you. Hit him if you think he just wants to take space. Dash forward, wd down if you think he's trying to bait whiff; his whiff punish whiffs, and you whiff punish.

 

[King Mob]

Just as the Vynleren guy said I always wait for the Marth to throw out a move and then punish

This is a perfect example of how you get pushed into a corner by a Marth who understands that whiff punish is beat by taking space.

 

[bearsfan092]

This is a perfect example of how you get pushed into a corner by a Marth who understands that whiff punish is beat by taking space.

It's not altogether a bad initial mindset. That is the first layer of the MU after all, but yeah do be careful of this.

Staying grounded is really important in nearly every MU since Fox has the most options available, but the Marth MU especially demands it. Stick yourself right outside the range of dash attack and start working on the MU from there. When you sense the DD back, overrun and aim for the back part of his DD. He either has to break into the run animation away or block. If he blocks it's pretty free (grab or a quick shield pressure sequence if you aerialed). If he breaks into run, at the very least you gain a healthy chunk of stage if not a more material punish.

On the other hand if he runs you down, he has to do the same thing where he hits the back of your DD (provided that you're dash dancing well and he's relatively smart). Common Marth grounded neutral moves when he does this include dtilt and grab and you can counterattack both of these. A walling bair will (usually because lolmarth) beat grab, while dair will get you around dtilt and lead to a nice punish too. Some Marths will also dash attack in neutral as something of a mixup since the range is huge at the expense of more lag. That you just want to DD around, and if you keep your composure you can get a nice grab off the lag.

In general it's harder to approach with an aerial in this MU on both sides because both sides are prone to getting DD grabbed. When you're feeling out your opponent, a good rule of thumb I like to operate by is to stick to grab and running shine until DD habits start presenting themselves. Grab punishes Marth overextensions, and running shine is a fast and less risky approach that you can take space with (WDing back if whiffed).

To answer your original question on cues:

a grab - if he's DDing too close and enters bair space, throw one out to wall. Bair has a solid matchup against grab, but if he's watching for the bair, it is very punishable so be careful

fair - he shouldn't be hitting you with this on approach so idk how this is happening in your case. This usually happens as a fadeback walling thing for Marth

dtilt - he's gonna break from DD to run (and usually only barely if the Marth is good) or go from fair>dtilt. As I said earlier, you can counteract with a smart drill

nair - Marth jumping by itself is a big enough cue. If you didn't give up the entire stage this should be one of the easier things to punish via DD grab

Hopefully this helps a bit

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Any attempt by Marth to fade back with an aerial can be punished with ftilt, and usually fsmash if you space it decently. Approaching you with an aerial opens him for shield grabs, or letting you run under AC nair. Most Marths love DD grab, so you should guide them to the corner or get close enough that you know you can hit before attacking. Otherwise if you want to approach with an aerial, get close enough that timing a fox trot back would be close to the point that your aerial would be hitting, either right at the start or right before. If they try to turn around you're probably very close to the royzone already, if they try to block without turning around then Marth's oos from behind isn't that great. Try using approaching shield (out of full run, NOT shield stop) to mitigate any attempt by Marth to approach with not grab (and time oos quickly). If you get in close enough, you can likely grab him out of a non-pivot grab attempt this way too, usmash has even better range. To reset and deal with the most common options like grab, you can do a retreating nair or wavedash back.
Generally, stay grounded and ready to shield. Don't be afraid to get in Marth's face since this can royzone most of his moves and running past him actually works pretty well. If you're far apart, laser, and don't run into his dd attempts. You can jump over dtilt, though he might start to opt to jab when this begins to happen, which actually becomes much more effective when he starts building percent on you. Stuff grab attempts. Always expect him to try to move around your attacks (DD, WD etc) or intercept them (dtilt, grab, or the occasional nair). If it looks like he's attacking at all, you should jab, grab, or shield.
Also get Marth above you. If available, careful circle stalling/drop through or run off platform is pretty safe, and the Marth player may try to intercept you. Alternatively, shield drop against that.
Run up jab is the safest approach most of the time, just don't get CCed shield grabbed or hit with the bizarre uair.
I expect you to know that having stage position is important, but you can always out camp other characters.

 

[Tang it Rell]

Honestly I'm not even afraid to laser; even on small stages like yoshi's. You really do not have to approach. Shoot some smart lasers( just a few) to remind them that you don't really have to approach and if you know their habits then you can punish the approach.

Also it never hurts to get that invincible wavedash back to stage, in case you blow it

 

[SuperShus]

I can't believe no one said this yet

run around and laser until marth looks bored then run up and waveshine grab uthrow uair uair uair uair dead just like leffen lol
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And if marth does try to take stage, either take a platform, approach, or feign an approach. TBH if you are attacking enough but not too much and lasering some and camping some then the neutral isn't so bad. in fact it's kinda easy. It's the punish game on both ends that's hard - continuing your punishes and DIing out of theirs...