Dealing with Bad Players

[Shin Kaizoku]

I'm sure this thread has been created before, and if it has, apologies in advance.

Anyway, I wanted to figure out why I'm having so much trouble with players who are either inexperienced/troll-like who simply repeatedly use the same moves and generally play like someone who just bought the game. When I play against players who have experience with the game, (making reads, doing combos, edgeguarding properly) I find the game much more enjoyable and I feel as though I perform better against these players. But when it comes to players who seem like they don't know the game well, I find myself losing and even getting two-stocked a lot. I feel like this is the reason I have a lot of trouble against FG Little Macs. Has anyone else ever felt like this through their FG ventures? Any tips on overcoming this weakness?

 

[kinbobbobkin]

Yes, I do. I feel I input more errors in FG. I guess in doubt.

I think that's why more people rely more on Smash Addler than For Glory itself.

 

[qwfwfq]

I say out loud a lot, "I don't get it. I'm better but I'm not winning."

Might be that I'm actually not better. Could just be learning how to play against cheapness. Sometimes certain styles of play, although not exactly traditional or advanced, can be immensely effective against those of us who don't have a high skill set. Now when I come across a spamming player, I just try and figure out how to beat that. Each time I get a little closer. I don't know that there's anything else to do about it.

 

[PCHU]

I'm sure this thread has been created before, and if it has, apologies in advance.

Anyway, I wanted to figure out why I'm having so much trouble with players who are either inexperienced/troll-like who simply repeatedly use the same moves and generally play like someone who just bought the game. When I play against players who have experience with the game, (making reads, doing combos, edgeguarding properly) I find the game much more enjoyable and I feel as though I perform better against these players. But when it comes to players who seem like they don't know the game well, I find myself losing and even getting two-stocked a lot. I feel like this is the reason I have a lot of trouble against FG Little Macs. Has anyone else ever felt like this through their FG ventures? Any tips on overcoming this weakness?

I had a lot to say about this, but I'll keep it brief.

Generally, you're probably used to tackling certain situations a certain way because it's comfortable and fits your flow as well as your opponent's flow, but there are times like these where you need to break down the game and look for the answer that just works.
It might disrupt your flow and it might be hard to break habits, but it's well worth it to put in the extra effort (provided you really care about FG; I got tired of the input delay in combination with trolls/people who constantly camped, so I stopped caring).

To give an example:
I'd like to say I'm a fairly good Melee Falco, and I've been practicing very hard for an upcoming tournament, but for some odd reason, a few days ago, I was actually losing stocks to my best friend's Doctor Mario (who doesn't even play competitively); he just kept walking forward and ftilting me and jab comboing me, and it was actually stuffing my attempts at pressuring him.
So I took a step back, isolated the point where I was struggling, and started focusing on every decision I chose to make, whether it was an input for positioning or something contributing to the offensive.
The decision worked wonders, and shortly, I was having no problems in stuffing HIS approaches and working over him with my own, completely dominating the neutral.

Smash 4 is a lot different than Melee and this approach might not make that huge of a difference, but it forces you to really break down the game and think optimally without taking away what you enjoy about your playstyle.
As a Dedede main, it's very important that I capitalize on whatever opportunity I get because they are few and far between, especially in matchups against more projectile-heavy characters.
Still, though, I've found that every time I really put in that level of focus, it always pays off, and maybe it will with you, too.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Because you expect good plays so when someone plays bad you forget how to deal with it. It isn't that you are bad, it's that you expect their play to be different and don't adjust accordingly.

 

[Shin Kaizoku]

It's a pretty odd feeling phenomenon that I know a lot of people have gone through. I usually find myself able to adapt to situations pretty well, but for some reason the overly repetitive patterns I see online get the best of me. I guess finding a way to adapt is the only way, but at the same time I wouldn't want to make a habit of the playstyle I adopt when playing those people.

 

[Jpot]

Don’t you know, there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

Pretty applicable here, I'd say. I have the same issue, at times. I think it just takes some slowing down and thinking about what's beating you and which of your decisions aren't working the way you want. Much of high-level play is about baiting your opponent into doing something they shouldn't, and then punishing it - but if they aren't good enough to even recognize the illusion of an opportunity, then the result is the same as a better player seeing through your mindgames. The good news is that most poor players are very predictable. The whole point of mindgames is getting your opponent to do something you want them to do, so you can anticipate it and react accordingly. If they're playing predictably to begin with, you've already won that mental battle - now you just have to observe their patterns and capitalize.

 

[Roukiske]

If you want to be a good player, you must be ready for anything. I play Ganon and sometimes all I do is fair. I space them and use them in a smart way, but maybe 80% of my attacks are just that one move. Don't forget a scrubby looking technique may be someone outplaying you with what is an actually good strategy (first thing to come to mind would be spamming Links who also zones with Zair). One cannot say they lost a match and think they are better. That is an extremely ignorant statement many competitive video games. I'm not saying the OP is thinking this, but many many people do think like this.

That being said, here's a few things maybe you should look out for:

• Get up attack. You should ALMOST NEVER do this, but your "not so good" opponent will. Expect it, and when it happens, punish it.
• Constant unsafe attacks. Good opponents won't do this so you don't expect the random dash attacks, but some people will do it. Retaliate correctly. Shield grab when they could have died? Should have FSmashed.
• Roll behind you down smash. People do it. It's very easy to do and can get you far. But now you know they're going to do it. Now you can beat it.
• Projectile spam. I highly doubt anyone in this game has a safe projectile from up close when dodged or blocked properly. So there you go.
• Air dodge spam. It's not invincible. Time it right and let them eat it.

You have to be prepared for things like this. What if you go to a tournament and this happens to you because you think "hey no ones gonna do this lol that's dumb". Then lose. It won't feel good. Good luck and have fun.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Pan Spam

 

[ChikoLad]

I only ever have problems with bad players when I have lag.

Seems to be a consistent problem with Dedede players and Mac players. I can generally still win but they have a lot of lag-safe stuff.

 

[Shog]

One cannot say they lost a match and think they are better. That is an extremely ignorant statement many competitive video games. I'm not saying the OP is thinking this, but many many people do think like this.

/thread

No offense, but this sounds exactly like it. Losing to someone and calling him bad essentially means you are worse

 

[axelalexzander]

Happens to me sometimes.

I think it's because I get impatient and lazy. If I see a bad player I start to relax, go for big hits instead of playing it safe. Take risks I otherwise wouldn't have. I get WAY too aggressive off stage. It's all lack of discipline I think.

I was shocked how much better I played when I went to my first tournament. I didn't do any stupid stuff because I was competing and was surrounded by people watching me that I didn't know.

Too often on FG I bring my B or C game instead of my A game because I'm playing alone.

Best advice is probably to take a deep breath, slow down. Stop being so aggressive until you get some reads on the bad player you can exploit. Let them make their mistakes first, then punish accordingly when they give you a wide open window..

And then there's other times you get beat because they make a lucky read or two. Or you make a dumb mistake yourself like SDing.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Sound like you're not that good, I mean, if scrubs can beat you then all that means is you're used to a certain set way of playing against another tryhard like yourself who thinks they're amazing and "edgeguards properly"

Your arrogance is your downfall. Imitating top level competitive players doesn't automatically make you one.

You need to adapt to your opponent regardless of whom you are playing. If you're losing to the most basic of players it's because your fundamental flaw is thinking that you're good to begin with, simply because you know of the competitive smash scene and think that automatically makes you good.

 

[AreJay25]

This happens sometimes.

I was playing FG a couple of days ago and I got paired up with a Mewtwo that spammed rolls, Smash attacks, Confusion and Shadow Ball. He won. (To be fair I was playing Mario, who I haven't used in quite some time but still.)

Needless to say I was very confused as to how I lost to this guy. But instead of being salty about it, I just laughed it off and moved on. I then won a majority of my matches that session.

Really, it's just a matter of whether or not you're prepared for something that silly. Not everyone is going to play "smart," and that's a possibility you always have to keep in mind.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

If you want to get good at smash, playing against 6 year old children on "For Glory" is not going to help. You're just conditioning yourself to playing weak players, and the lag doesn't help you with getting that crisp timing down.

FG player ≠ Competitive smash player.

 

[AreJay25]

No, FG is not a good source for competitive play. It's mainly just a source for practice. But then again, perhaps it's not....

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

No, FG is not a good source for competitive play. It's mainly just a source for practice. But then again, perhaps it's not....

It's anti practice. Makes you worse, not better.

Practice would be going to a weekly or a tournament for smash 4... and when you're alone at home, practice techskill on training mode. Which I guess in this game would be perfect pivots / character specific stuff... I dunno. There's gotta be something you can practice tech wise. (So used to telling people to get perfect timing on L cancels and SHFFLs lol, I dont know smash 4 that well)

Honnestly it's impossible to improve in smash without getting rekt hard by a much better player and learning from them as to what makes them so much better than you. That's how I got good, and I still have so very much to learn.

 

[AreJay25]

It's anti practice. Makes you worse, not better.

Practice would be going to a weekly or a tournament for smash 4... and when you're alone at home, practice techskill on training mode. Which I guess in this game would be perfect pivots / character specific stuff... I dunno. There's gotta be something you can practice tech wise. (So used to telling people to get perfect timing on L cancels and SHFFLs lol, I dont know smash 4 that well)

Honnestly it's impossible to improve in smash without getting rekt hard by a much better player and learning from them as to what makes them so much better than you. That's how I got good, and I still have so very much to learn.

Keep in mind that when I say "practice" on For Glory, I'm more so talking about making sure I'm doing stuff correctly, like spacing and whatnot. No way am I actually going on there to improve lol. You're 100% right, though.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Keep in mind that when I say "practice" on For Glory, I'm more so talking about making sure I'm doing stuff correctly, like spacing and whatnot. No way am I actually going on there to improve lol. You're 100% right, though.

Well there's nothing wrong with going on for glory and wrecking people for fun, I play smash 64 online agasint some reallllllly weak players sometimes. I just play the "How many times can I use falcons down air before they quit" game lol.

I dunno what's worse though. Scrubs, or this wave of people that think because they know what the smash community is, or have watched 1-2 high level streams that it automatically makes them a higher calibur player. When threads like this are created every day and prove that psuedo competitive players actually lose very regularly to casual players just doing random moves.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Well there's nothing wrong with going on for glory and wrecking people for fun, I play smash 64 online agasint some reallllllly weak players sometimes. I just play the "How many times can I use falcons down air before they quit" game lol.

I dunno what's worse though. Scrubs, or this wave of people that think because they know what the smash community is, or have watched 1-2 high level streams that it automatically makes them a higher calibur player. When threads like this are created every day and prove that psuedo competitive players actually lose very regularly to casual players just doing random moves.

You know what's worse than either the pseudo-competitive players or the scrubs? People like you who try to push them out of the Smash community and make the environment more toxic for them. Sure they might suck, but they're the people who are giving the scene a boost. We might have to deal with their **** in the meantime, but sooner or later they'll get smacked down by someone and get a taste of their real skill level. There's no need for you to point it out like a tool tho.

Are you trying to kill Smash or help it grow?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

You know what's worse than either the pseudo-competitive players or the scrubs? People like you who try to push them out of the Smash community and make the environment more toxic for them. Sure they might suck, but they're the people who are giving the scene a boost. We might have to deal with their **** in the meantime, but sooner or later they'll get smacked down by someone and get a taste of their real skill level. There's no need for you to point it out like a tool tho.

Are you trying to kill Smash or help it grow?

Not trying to push anyone away from playing smash.

However, if someone has a horrible competitive mindset "This and that is cheap, tires don exits, all you do is one move and I cant win.. etc" I don't see the advantage of having them play competitively. Makes the scene childish and boring.

There are a LOT of smash players who would be better off just playing with their friends than trying to play competitively.

For Glory is bringing a lot of these casuals into the competitive scene... in some cases its good, in most cases it's not.

 

[Roko Jono]

If you play any kind of smash, that is cool. If you want to get into competitive, please take everything as a learning experience and react correctly. I would rather not have that player apart of the scene if all they were being was childish. If it results in less players, but more enjoyable people, so be it. Some may call more players as growth, but I don't.

May sound a bit harsh, playing casually though is perfectly fine and you can yell all you want as long as you're having a good time. However, if I'm playing with people who want to get better, I'd rather be playing with the guy that says, "dang I can't get around that, how would you?" and give him advice than the guy that says "omg dude that is so cheap man you're so cheap, I could beat you" while rolling my eyes. Quality over quantity.

OP here is on the right track though, just don't call these players bad (calling anyone bad is just kind of rude really as there are nicer ways). You should keep repetitive strategy counters in your arsenal though. Personally that is exactly how I play Mac. I think I use maybe 3 or 4 of his moves only since they're all you need to get the job done. One could call my Link repetitive too. I use projectiles + jab combo until you are in KO range. Just be prepared.

 

[Qjo]

i feel this all the time, mostly against ganons lol
i blame it on the input lag and get really salty but i know its my own fault
i guess just getting better and experience are the only way to get past it

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

i feel this all the time, mostly against ganons lol
i blame it on the input lag and get really salty but i know its my own fault
i guess just getting better and experience are the only way to get past it

I used to play really high level smash 64. Online play is huge in ssb64 but we don't take it as "real" smash, just fun (becasue it doesnt run at a smooth 60 fps and smash is a precise game)

I see you joined yesterday, welcome to smashboards! Check out your regional section for posts regarding weekly / monthly events. Smash 4 is huge right now and I'm sure there are smashfests in your area, check em out! Much better than laggy online matches against people that don't DI or do anything to help you improve.

 

[Roukiske]

I wouldn't disregard online play/FG for Sm4sh completely. It certainly isn't the most precise smash game out there, and all the amount of lag in the world can still teach you proper ways to play. Just a quick example is making sure you are playing efficiently. Shield grabbing your opponent when you could have just down smashed for a KO. The amount of times I see that online is quite saddening.

 

[MVboy39]

I'd like to start by saying this isn't me being sarcastic or trolling. It's a serious question.

You know the For Glory Toon Link, right? That guy who goes to the edge and starts spamming projectiles? You can't spam back, because the shield blocks stuff, and when you get close, he goes all "LOOK MOM I CAN PRESS R AND LEFT AT THE SAME TIME" to the other ledge. Has anyone beaten one, and if so, how?

 

[AreJay25]

I'd like to start by saying this isn't me being sarcastic or trolling. It's a serious question.

You know the For Glory Toon Link, right? That guy who goes to the edge and starts spamming projectiles? You can't spam back, because the shield blocks stuff, and when you get close, he goes all "LOOK MOM I CAN PRESS R AND LEFT AT THE SAME TIME" to the other ledge. Has anyone beaten one, and if so, how?

You have to basically be super aggressive. Shield his projectiles, and chase after him when he rolls away. Shield any obvious attempts to get you off of him. The key to beating a campy Toon Link is to not give him any space to zone you.

 

[MVboy39]

You have to basically be super aggressive. Shield his projectiles, and chase after him when he rolls away. Shield any obvious attempts to get you off of him. The key to beating a campy Toon Link is to not give him any space to zone you.

I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the term "zone" in this context.

(yes, yes, I know, gitgud, MVscrub39)

 

[AreJay25]

I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the term "zone" in this context.

(yes, yes, I know, gitgud, MVscrub39)

Zoning is basically using long range options, like projectiles, to tack on damage and limit your opponent's approach.

 

[MVboy39]

Zoning is basically using long range options, like projectiles, to tack on damage and limit your opponent's approach.

Any way to get them to lower that Hylian shield? Again, thanks for the tips.

 

[AreJay25]

Any way to get them to lower that Hylian shield? Again, thanks for the tips.

The shield is only active when they're standing still. When they're moving, they're open to hits. And no problem.

 

[MVboy39]

The shield is only active when they're standing still. When they're moving, they're open to hits. And no problem.

Got it. Thanks.