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DB and Dtilt Combo/Trap Help?

Shonoun

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Hey guys, I'm training as a Marth main and I've seen a bunch of guides stating that I can use DB to start up insane combos and Dtilt to trap enemies, but I have no idea how they work. For DB, how exactly would I start a combo? Use a SH and only the first hit, then combo? Or do I not SH at all? And for Dtilt, once I hit the enemy, what exactly would I do and when? None of my followups seem quick enough (even at low %) to connect with them before they have a chance to shield. Help would be appreciated!
 

Darklink401

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My favorite thing to do:

SH fair -> jump autocancel dair -> right before landing behind opponent, bair.

Marth's bair is interesting because it flips him, so you can bair to fair in other situations.
 
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Shonoun

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That combo sounds pretty deadly, as I already know what his fair can do...

It'd be cool if you can answer my original questions though xD
 
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Darklink401

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It's more for shield pressure

And oookay, back from my bath, ready to think


Honestly, I havent tried to combo with Dancing Blade, but the down one lands the opponent, so you can dtilt from there cant you?
 

EternalFlame

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Hey guys, I'm training as a Marth main and I've seen a bunch of guides stating that I can use DB to start up insane combos and Dtilt to trap enemies, but I have no idea how they work. For DB, how exactly would I start a combo? Use a SH and only the first hit, then combo? Or do I not SH at all? And for Dtilt, once I hit the enemy, what exactly would I do and when? None of my followups seem quick enough (even at low %) to connect with them before they have a chance to shield. Help would be appreciated!
Well, being one of those guys who wrote a guide with that on it, I'll just say that some of the DB stuff is more setups then combos xD I'll firstly direct you to mine (since I'm not sure if that's the one you read):

http://smashboards.com/guides/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.89/

Though I'm pretty sure I was the only one writing on the DB setups/combos, but now I'm curious if someone else wrote on this too xD I'd love a link to those if ever

Next up is asking which one exactly you're having troubles with and I can elaborate further. Just as a general thing, the SH DB and ground DB both have their setup options.Setups as a principle are escapable, and true combos Marth lacks alot of (except for 2 hits like his Dthrow > UAir/BAir, or the Air DB > UAir at 130+%, or the UAir > FSmash at 40-50%)

As for the Dtilt, consider that as well a setup, as it is quite escapable, but you're relying on hesitation to get the followup after the initial hit. Whether it be a FAir, grab, or what have you, the Dtilt is a reaction type of trap, and those of fast reflexes can escape as long as they can guess your followup right (Unless it's the double Dtilt, which is both safe and really hard to get out of).
 
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Shonoun

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My question was actually about your post... xD
Thanks for the info, but how would I do a setup for air DB? Is it the first hit only then a followup fair or what? I need elaboration on that part.

And I read somewhere that Dtilt is a really effective trap, because the enemy has no options once you hit them. 'If they spotdodge, do another, if they roll behind, punish with DB' etc.
 
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EternalFlame

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My question was actually about your post... xD
Thanks for the info, but how would I do a setup for air DB? Is it the first hit only then a followup fair or what? I need elaboration on that part.
You could have just asked me on the discussion section on the guide post though xD
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.379525/

If there are futher question's, I'd like the conversation to be continued there please xD

Air DB in short is in one part a positioning tool for the NAir and UAir combos, and second part a means to approach (like SH FAir). The DB cuts your vertical momentum and has you stall in the air a tiny bit once it's used. Your opponent may get confused and may think you made a mistake, but then you have every air option available as well.

If you hit with the first Air DB slash, your opponent gets lifted off the ground a tiny bit. They only have a few frames to get out, and if they mess up by midair dodging or committing to a slow air move, they'll immediately land on the ground with landing lag, then they're wide open to any of your aerials (ideally NAir or UAir, as you can easily combo/setup into a number of other options). The Air DB (Particularly in SH) is actually more ideal when your opponent tries to challenge you in the air, and you connect with the first hit. They will be forced to fall with you and their options of intercepting your next attack are quite limited if you're at a sword's length away). Even if you miss, their hesitation or thinking you're open can still be punished by a FAir/BAir, or you can double jump to safety.

The ground DB setup is similar, where you lift your opponent off the ground, and it has the same quality as before if your opponent can't react fast enough. So the input is Side B > Up B > choose one of the options I listed. This one is more ideal at lower percents, as anything high like 60% and up, they will fly too far up to follow up with anything but like a chasing UAir/Dolphin Slash. At that point, you may just want to go for the regular full DB xD

Of course, weight come into play as well, as floaty characters like Jigglypuff, frame 1 moves like Ness, or fast fallers like Shiek can escape much easier than the rest of the cast. Heavy characters get abused by this pretty badly, and medium weight characters vary on results. You also need to keep in mind at what point you do the SH DB, as you can do it as soon as you jump, but it limits your choices to just the NAir/2nd DB/SB/jump options. Around half a second is the time you need to wait before executing the DB, so you have room to do any of the followups, including the ones listed to protect yourself with.

CPU's vary on whether they fall for it or make a perfect timing, and more so against human players who know the proper ways to get out of it. It heavily relies on hesitation, misinputs, and reading your opponent well. It has its flaws, but it does work. If you need the visual examples, go check the video examples section or just go to my YT page on my sig and see how it's used for yourself (granted, I taught my friends how to get out of it, so the SH DB is much harder to get on them ^^")

EDIT: Hopefully this clarifies the setup's purpose for ya. So please again, feel free to ask me any further questions you may have, I'm always happy to help
 
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Shonoun

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All right, thanks. The post you made was a little confusing on that part, but I got it now. :D
 

EternalFlame

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All right, thanks. The post you made was a little confusing on that part, but I got it now. :D
Well, at least I know I should add more details to explain that section more thoroughly xD I'll be editing that whenever I get more time (or I'll just rip the explaination I have here and post it there xD).

I've gotten something from this too, so thanks for the feedback, and all the best with improving your Marth ^^
 

EternalFlame

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The dtilt trap is on BLOCK.
Yes, on block/dodge is one of it's other trap applications due to the speed of the move xD A move of great application to say the least - probably why its one of our best spacing tools.

But you're more qualified to speak on the trap application, since I didn't write about that xD Only went off what I wrote from my guide
 
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Shonoun

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Wow, both the creators of the two best Marth guides have actually communicated with me!
I feel special
 

EternalFlame

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Wow, both the creators of the two best Marth guides have actually communicated with me!
I feel special
More like the only Marth guide writers for this Smash that's still active xD Who knows if another, if ever, will show up to represent Marth in terms of guides
 

Darklink401

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More like the only Marth guide writers for this Smash that's still active xD Who knows if another, if ever, will show up to represent Marth in terms of guides
When I git gud I might.

No but actually, Marth IS my 2nd main, so if I find any cool stuff I might compile a guide.


Already got one thing in mind... :3
 
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EternalFlame

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When I git gud I might.

No but actually, Marth IS my 2nd main, so if I find any cool stuff I might compile a guide.


Already got one thing in mind... :3
Then hopefully neither Emblem Lord or I beat you to the punch >: D

But seriously, don't need to be good to write a guide per say (though it does help to know what you're talking about at least xD). If ya got something to offer, just start small then build up from there. That's how I got to where I am with my guide. Give it your best shot dude ^^
 

Darklink401

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We'll see, eh? ;P Your stuff seems to be really detailed, but I guess I'll check them out in the Marth forums so I only include stuff not touched on yet ;3

Thanks :3
 
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