Dair to Grab?

[deadPhoenix]

Hey all, have a question,

What's the science behind dair to grab/up smash? Why does it work?

 

[Mtank]

Because if you hit their feet it will be treated as a spike, which will put them into a spinning animation on the ground, giving you a chance to usmash or grab (or rest).

 

[Beach]

Sorry if I'm hijackig this thread but my friends have been able to avoid Dair to follow by mashing a smash and or tilt or what ever they may be. Do I have to hit their feet when I do dair or is there something else I'm missing here and is it different on shield because it's hitting shield instead?

 

[Mtank]

You do have to hit their feet and you also HAVE to l-cancel it, which is the hardest part. You have to account for whether you're hitting a shield or a person (yes the timings vary) and the timing is just weird in general. Oh but also you can't do this at like 0% because they can cc down smash or whatever. It depends on the character, but you can start getting guaranteed grabs and such around 50% for sure.

 

[tauKhan]

Dair grab starts working at 54% vs fox and 62% vs falcon. This is assuming you hit with the stronger spike hitbox, and the percentages are after last hit.

@ Mtank As long as you hit with the meteor hitbox last, the dair cannot be cc'd, since it hits frequently enough to catch the victims landing animation. Also hitlag is same on shield as hit, so the timing doesn't change on shield vs hit.

 

[Mtank]

Oh really? Good to know, good to know, ty.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

@ T tauKhan your percent for fox is off. The spin animation for fox starts at 47%. The first hit of dair initiates the spike spin. If you do the first hit and l-cancel it the opponent will only take a percent, be put into spin, and be unable to smash di the dair to avoid the rest/grab/f-smash follow up

 

[tauKhan]

@ T tauKhan your percent for fox is off. The spin animation for fox starts at 47%. The first hit of dair initiates the spike spin. If you do the first hit and l-cancel it the opponent will only take a percent, be put into spin, and be unable to smash di the dair to avoid the rest/grab/f-smash follow up

The change in animation type doesn't matter at all, the length of the hitstun still increases linearly. In any case, dair rest works a lot earlier. I calculated the hitstun using Toomai's hitbox spreadsheet, and got >= 22 frames of hitstun starting at 54% on fox.

Also on another note, a single hit dair can still be sdi'd to make rest follow up harder or in some cases impossible, it's just more difficult.

 

[chrbir5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ynH7mqqF4

goes over stage spiking. rest is a crazy but possible option, but hbox grabs out of it. Note that the opponent can smash di out of it if you hit with most of the moves.

 

[tauKhan]

@ chrbir5 What an useless video. As if the hitstun animation changes anything.

 

[Mtank]

@ T tauKhan it does.
and it would be a useless vid, not an

 

[chrbir5]

@ chrbir5 What an useless video. As if the hitstun animation changes anything.

It really does change stuff. They have in-actionable frames with a rotated hurtbox right towards your rest hitbox.

The reaction window is just too tight and too risky for most, so just grab!

It's super useful!!!

 

[tauKhan]

It really does change stuff. They have in-actionable frames with a rotated hurtbox right towards your rest hitbox.

The reaction window is just too tight and too risky for most, so just grab!

It's super useful!!!

Nope, the length of hitstun is directly based on the amount of knockback, which scales linearly depending on the % of the victim after hit. You can find the formula to calculate kb and hitstun here http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/

The rotating animation starts happening on kbs smaller than required for dair grab to work. On the other hand dair rest combos a lot earlier than the dair hitstun animation changes. The animation doesn't mean that everything will magically combo, it doesn't change anything. Though it does give a visual cue that a grab will never work if it doesn't happen.

Because if you hit their feet it will be treated as a spike, which will put them into a spinning animation on the ground, giving you a chance to usmash or grab (or rest).

It doesn't matter which hurtbox of the opponent you hit, it depends on which hitbox you connect with. The vid also had this wrong. The meteor hitboxes are inside puffs feet, so you have to be close to the victim to get the spike.

 

[Plunder]

Yea pretty much this ^

I think before you take some video you see on youtube as the gospel truth you need to actually test it out and ACTUALLY try it in a real setting. TauKhan seems to have an extreme amount of knowledge about Melee's mechanics so it would be foolish to challenge his opinion unless you've tried something and proven him wrong by experience or thorough testing in 20XX or debug.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Mtank @ chrbir5 Regarding the hitboxes and animations: I made a small mistake reading the hitbox spreadsheet, and did some testing on spike hitstun animations.

1. The dair is always the strong spike on a grounded opponent. There's 2 different hitbox groups for the dair, one of which can only hit aerial characters, and the other only grounded chars, and the grounded one is the strong spiking one. So it works like samus utilt for example.

2. When you spike someone on the ground, he's put into one of various animations depending on the knockback and the bone the victim got hit at. The animations have various lengths, BUT each of them becomes interruptable as soon as hitstun runs out. So while the spin that happens when you hit feet lasts longer than the animation that occurs when you hit chest, the opponent still becomes actionable at the same time in both cases.

However I also did notice that the spin really is helpful for landing rests, since it usually makes the opponent fall sideways on top of you when you get out of the landing lag. But getting the spin doesn't make linking the dair into grab any easier.