Dair > Dtilt > Fsmash combo: Detailed information

[PhoenixAlpha]

Hey, Lucas users! Lately I've been experimenting w/ the combo
that appears in the topic title:

Full Hop, Fast Fall Down Air > D Tilt > Fsmash

It originally appeared within a Lucas guide here and was quoted
by pianodude700 as something he used in Houston. He, in turn,
said that he found the combo on another old thread.
I don't know who came up with the combo because I couldn't
follow that trail. If anyone knows who or is the person
that came up with this, I'll credit you here as soon as I know.

That's beside the point, though. The combo relies on a very
small window of opportunity to "tech" off of the ground
after hits 3 and 4 of the down air. This opportunity to tech
only shows itself when the opposing character is
"slammed" into the ground. This "slam" only happens
at mid-to-high percents and those percentages are different
depending on who the victim is.

I have researched the percentages at which this combo
is able to be executed and on what chars. Being able to
slam the character (w/out their tech) is the key
requirement for this combo. I have listed every member
of the cast and with it the EARLIEST possible % at
which they can be slammed into the ground
and beat up w/ the rest of the combo.

Tests are done in training (so no diminishing returns)
on FD. For the testing, all 4 hits of dair connect,
and no DI is used, blah blah blah.


Jiggs: 59
Squirtle: 62
GAW: 62
Kirby: 63
Pika: 64
Meta Knight: 64
Fox: 64
Olimar: 65
Falco: 65
Zamus: 65
Zelda and Shiek: 67
Marth: 68
Peach: 69
Diddy: 70
Toon Link: 70
ICs: 70
Ness: 71
Lucas: 71
Sonic: 71
Luigi: 72
Pit: 72
Mario: 73
Ivy: 74
Lucario: 75
Link: 75
Wolf: 75
Falcon: 75
Ike: 76
Rob: 76
Yoshi: 77
Wario: 77
Samus: 77
Ganon: 78
Charizard: 78
DeDeDe: 79
Snake: 79
DK: 81
Bowser: 83

Characters that are written in yellow were especially
difficult to send downwards w/ the dair. My guess is
that said chars are too small/tall. Whatever the case,
I wasn't hitting them downward with dair, so I
footstool'd off of said chars and then did a dair right
afterwards to get the numbers. I confirmed w/ a
handful of chars that this shouldn't affect the earliest percent.

This means that if you approach an opponent with a fresh dair
at the following percentages and connect with all four hits,
the slam will take place, and the combo can be finished.
The exception is the group of characters written in yellow
who really like to be sent upwards at 45 degrees, probably
because of their shape.

One last note: most characters on Final were killed
from these percentages when the combo was used.
Since extra down tilts can be added if you are good
with the jab lock, this can be a potential kill combo
if done correctly.

 

[Omair]

I just tried this out on a CPU and it actually works nicely.

 

[prOAPC]

in this fight at 00:30 i spike Marth at 46% only with the last hit, i could jab lock him, but i didn't know i would spike him with that %, so i used a PK Fire
btw, the first time i heard about this combo was here and Mitani uploaded some videos of different variations of this combo

 

[pianodude700]

this thread is win.

this combo is my favorite killing move, and has made me infamous in houston.
i first learned about this when minus made a thread about it i believe early august

and yeah APC if you hit just the last hit or two, the spike % is significant less.
however, that's far harder to do and probably less practical.
even if you spike that there, a bat isn't going to KO
you'd have to jab lock your *** off.
the tournaments i go to ban jab locks.

it's super easy to just connect a FH dair with a few mindgames and some good spacing.
MK can get killed fairly early with this according to Phoenix's data.

good sht

 

[Blackbelt]

This is valuable information.



Good work.

 

[Tyr_03]

Been doing it since a few weeks after the game came out but okay. I don't do the Dtilt because the people I played learned how to tech and DI it. If they DI to the side you have to chase with an Usmash. Same with teching. This is one of Lucas's most valuable combos until people learn the timing for the tech and DIing. Then they can make it effectively useless except for racking up the damage. Only way to avoid this is only hitting with the 4th hit and then going for a Dsmash, Uair or Fair depending on percentage. It's a great combo but don't expect it to be infallible. Dtilt will get you killed once they start teching because it doesn't have enough hitstun to stop them from attacking you.

 

[pianodude700]

Been doing it since a few weeks after the game came out but okay. I don't do the Dtilt because the people I played learned how to tech and DI it. If they DI to the side you have to chase with an Usmash. Same with teching. This is one of Lucas's most valuable combos until people learn the timing for the tech and DIing. Then they can make it effectively useless except for racking up the damage. Only way to avoid this is only hitting with the 4th hit and then going for a Dsmash, Uair or Fair depending on percentage. It's a great combo but don't expect it to be infallible. Dtilt will get you killed once they start teching because it doesn't have enough hitstun to stop them from attacking you.

This is true.
However, no one i usually play against has been able to tech it reliably yet.

However, M2K and Azen are coming down for the next houston tournament.
I'll try it on them haha

 

[lil cj]

I do this combo all the time but without the dtilt
its very effective
Maybe u can nair instead of a dtilt if its possible??

 

[Levitas]

No, the Dtilt is really important. It's lucas's version of the jab lock, and can be used to walk the opponent to the edge of the stage for the Fsmash if necessary. It also guarantees the fsmash.

 

[pianodude700]

No, the Dtilt is really important. It's lucas's version of the jab lock, and can be used to walk the opponent to the edge of the stage for the Fsmash if necessary. It also guarantees the fsmash.

yes
this way, if the dair connects and spikes, but on a large level where the combo wouldn't otherwise kill the opponent, you can rack up damage with the jab lock before finishing them off.

 

[prOAPC]

remember that dtilt can trip your opponent, so think fast and fsmash

 

[Tyr_03]

The dtilt either helps or hinders the combo. It all depends. The Fsmash is guaranteed without it as long as you fastfall. But if mess up the fast fall sometimes the dtilt can help and keep them from getting up depending on your timing. Obviously you can get off jab locks with this as well. On the other hand, if your opponent has teched it then your dtilt is giving them the opportunity to escape when an Fsmash would normally hit. If they tech to the sides nothing but techchasing will work. If they DI you have to chase as well since it will put them out of the range of your Fsmash or dtilt. If I remember right, Ftilt might be long enough.

The thing you need to consider when doing this combo is: will my opponent learn how to reliably tech or DI this move. Surprisingly few people are capable of doing this because of the way the move works and how few good Lucas players are out there. I have one friend who has played me enough that he DIs and techs it literally everytime so that the combo is completely eliminated. The only way to combo out of Dairs against him is to hit with only the 4th hit, knocking him up and following up with Dsmash, Uair or Fair. I would not be at all surprised if you played someone like M2K or Azen and even they were not able to tech Lucas's Dair only because it's probably not something they've run into all that often and if they have they had no trouble dealing with Lucas in spite of it. But when you come up against someone who can, do not use Dtilt. It will not work. If you notice that your opponent can tech Dair at any point, take Dtilt out of the combo completely. Fsmash or techchase are your only options besides just hitting with hit four.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Thanks for that bit, Tyr_03. We gotta know how to follow up
whenever this stops working. Until then, just get Jiggs in a
jab lock from 59%.

SRSLY! 59 percent?

 

[prOAPC]

the only one that has tech me the dair, has been CPU 9 lol

 

[LuLLo]

I've done this combo once on my friend's Wario, only I finished with D-Smash, he also couldn't escape it, but I'm not sure it was a real inescapable combo...He probably was so amazed, since he doesn't get comboed much ...I'll do some testing on it, but if anyone knows it's not a combo, please tell me now before my testing will be in vain

 

[Tyr_03]

Dsmash is escapable.

 

[LuLLo]

Kay, thanks

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Tyr, can you finish the combo if they DI but don't tech?
It sounds like a correctly timed tech ruins the combo, right?

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

A friend of mine told me that people can't tech spikes that have electricity in them... For example, he told me that continuously repeating Ganondorf's D-air is inescapable because of the electricity. That's why it is an infinite (he is new to brawl but he researched a lot on Ganon and stumbled across this in smash wiki.)

 

[pianodude700]

A friend of mine told me that people can't tech spikes that have electricity in them... For example, he told me that continuously repeating Ganondorf's D-air is inescapable because of the electricity. That's why it is an infinite (he is new to brawl but he researched a lot on Ganon and stumbled across this in smash wiki.)

lucas' spike has no electricity.
the 1st and 3rd hits have the electricity, and send the opponent up a little.
the 2nd and definitely the 4TH hits are the spikers, and are nothin but foot.


HOWEVER, if this is true, lucas' OTHER spike, the b-air would not be techable.
I'm assuming this is true, because if you're fast enough it has been known to lead into relatively low % jab locks.

good thought though

 

[Tyr_03]

I haven't heard anything about this untechable because of electricity thing. Sounds like BS to me but I've never looked into it so who knows.

If they DI but don't tech you have to either guess which way they're going to DI before you've finished your Dair and DI yourself in that direction or else chase. Fsmash won't have enough range. Teching does ruin the combo. It can be teched 100% of the time.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

I'm not saying that this is 100% fact. I just heard this from my friend. My friend might be wrong about this because he is new to brawl. It's just that he said he researched up an infinite where Ganondorf just continuously short hops down-air. He told me that since it has electricity laced on the hit, people can't tech it which is why it is an infinite from where he researched it. I guess that until I test it, this might as well be a myth.

 

[Tianxiazhai]

I think he called Ganons Infinite because you can Cancel all the lag of his D-Air spike.

You can definatly tech the Lucas's Dair, Ive seen Cpus and Humans do it alike. It is pretty hard though