Dabuz - "I feel like I'm the best player using [Olimar]"

[Freezie KO]

Article with theScore eSports

Dabuz recently was interviewed and spoke a lot about Olimar. Wanted to get the Smashboards' Olimar crew thoughts.

Key Quotes:

"But also it's just matchup knowledge. People don't know Olimar! When was the last time you went to a tournament, thinking to yourself "Dang, I really need to learn the Olimar matchup." That doesn't happen! It's a gimmick."

"I feel like I'm the best player using the character, [Olimar] and I play him the best at the top level because of that knowledge and my skill level."

"I think that five years into the meta, if the game's still around and still growing, and people actually know all their matchups, even weird ones, he won't be a viable pick."

"I feel like Mega Man is the Brawl Olimar of Smash 4. His strength is his very consistent neutral and as players get better with Mega Man, they're going to learn to leave less holes in their neutral. He's going to be harder to hit, and then I think he'll hit a point where people will almost perfect his neutral, so just fighting him and getting hits will be a huge hill to climb."

Dabuz seems to play a much more defensive Olimar than the Myran or Angbad combo-heavy Olimars. He also says that MegaMan is basically a better Olimar.

Any thoughts on Dabuz's Olimar? The optimal way to play Olimar? Where does Olimar fit in the newly-minted "counterpick meta"? Can Olimar players leave less holes in their neutral and ascend like MegaMan players or is the character a gimmick?

Thoughts?

 

[Blue Banana]

Even if Olimar's neutral is completely optimized, it doesn't solve his lack of ability to escape a disadvantageous state. Olimar won't be able to avoid taking a hit forever, and once he does get hit, it's hard to put himself back into a comfortable neutral position.

Because of this, I can see why Dabuz says Mega Man is the "Brawl Olimar" in this game. His neutral is probably as strong as Oli's, but his disadvantage state is a bit better. If he's in an offstage position and uses Rush Coil for recovery, he still can attack without the risk of the free-fall animation. The other reason I can see Mega Man as "Brawl Olimar" is his excellent aerial mobility, which is important in the metagame. Better mobility allows Mega Man to space himself better on the fly, which is important in higher level matches where mistakes will be punished heavily.

I'm not going to go into what is the optimal Oli playstyle because I haven't seen a lot of recorded high-level Olimar play recently. All I'll say is that the amount of experience on playing the character and the amount of experience of the player playing the (meta)game both contribute to how they play the character.

I haven't played Smash too much for the past couple of months, so I might be behind in my thoughts in terms of metagame awareness.

 

[koken]

I like the way you pull out their style; Myran - Aggresive and pressuring & Angbad - Combo-heavy.
I think Dabuz could be the Defensive - Planning type.
I am a very reactive player, which I believe is my biggest weakness.

But I don't agree that much about he being the best Olimar player, just because he use it as a pocket or situational circumstances.
I can't deny he is quite good with the character but... I don't know, I don't feel it's fair or it has justified his title or position.

According to my experience since I pick Olimar since the very beginning of the game, I can say if the metagame and the general knowledge of the MU keeps improving, it could become a bad pick for us to keep with. Only on the terms of viable at the top level or getting tournaments win.

I strongly believe you have to make your opponent play a certain style in order to get the best of Olimar, but if you don't make it, Olimar has very limited options.

I'm saying this in the point of view of Sheik. She has and can determine the speed of the match and the pressure of the fight. You don't usually see a Sheik player waiting for the enemy to decide what to do, they usually are forcing you to do some things and they take advantage of your mistakes because of they pressure and movements.

We can do some things to leave less holes in our play but at a heavy demanding cost. It is REALLY REALLY exhausting playing Olimar at the top of your level and keep doing things perfectly constantly and taking this to the end of the tournament.

My secondary is Marth and my last option is Sheik, but whenever I used them, I don't feel that "burden" of playing as I feel with Olimar. My attacks can't fail because the Pikmin didn't sync, my grab won't fail because the other character was too near to me or the Pikmin didn't came out.

Even though you can say "You are dumb because you can avoid those desync if you pay attention to your line" or "if you do this it won't happen", is one more thing to pay attention with the cost of paying less attention to another thing and other characters doesn't have to do that.

Sadly I won't stop using Olimar as my main xD.

 

[Myran]

I'll be honest. Dabuz's Olimar is a joke to me. He's highly unoptimized doesn't know proper combos and from watching his matches it seems more like his opponent doesn't know how to adequately deal with an Olimar that defensive. He's not terrible but he's far from the best person using Olimar. If that was the case I'd love to see him go all Olimar at a national and prove it. He talks poorly about the character often enough for me to not discuss things with him since I dont find it beneficial for either of us. Definitely no where near the best I'd say.

I call it a joke because he talks big about it but he doesn't go all Olimar or even a high percentage when matters. I'm pretty confidemt that as time goes on and more top players understand defensive Olimar his success with the character will diminish. It's very hard for Olimar to thrive going super defensive since most characters can find their way in. It's one of the reasons I play aggro.

Inb4 Dabuz comes in here to argue with me.

 

[Freezie KO]

My secondary is Marth and my last option is Sheik, but whenever I used them, I don't feel that "burden" of playing as I feel with Olimar. My attacks can't fail because the Pikmin didn't sync, my grab won't fail because the other character was too near to me or the Pikmin didn't came out.

I definitely agree with this. It can get so stressful when pikmin fail to work.

I was playing a match the other day where I rolled onto stage from the ledge and immediately did a dsmash. I would've won the match with my spacing, but when I rolled onto stage, a pikmin fell underneath Battlefield. This caused me to whiff one side of my dsmash (the side that would've hit), and then I got punished and lost.

When playing Olimar, you have to be hyper-aware of these things. I probably could've just not done the dsmash, but I assumed (hah!) that my pikmin would be there when I needed it. When playing secondaries, it does feel "freeing" to not have to worry about that.

I'll be honest. Dabuz's Olimar is a joke to me.

We love you because you're honest, Myran.

I call it a joke because he talks big about it but he doesn't go all Olimar or even a high percentage when matters. I'm pretty confidemt that as time goes on and more top players understand defensive Olimar his success with the character will diminish. It's very hard for Olimar to thrive going super defensive since most characters can find their way in. It's one of the reasons I play aggro.

Actually Dabuz would probably agree with you. Dabuz himself calls his Olimar a gimmick because he's winning off MU inexperience.

I tend to go more aggro because if you go projectile-for-projectile with an opponent, Olimar can lose that battle. Pikmin become disabled or we're required to pluck again if they die. On the other hand, we have poor mobility to chase down, and our weight means we have to be a bit more cautious.

I wonder what Dabuz's success can show about, perhaps, the optimal way to camp. As Sonics get more campy and other characters (like MegaMan) pop up that we may have campy stalemates with, I try to look at his style and think about what I can do when forced to go into those situations.

Personally, I tend to get desperate for grabs when I get too offensive, so I have been working on trying to consciously "calm down" when it looks like being defensive would be optimal.

 

[Sky Pirate]

EDIT: Never mind, I'm done with that.

 

[koken]

EDIT: Never mind, I'm done with that.

Does that means you are dropping the character ?

 

[Sky Pirate]

Oh, no! I'm so sorry! I meant that I'm done whining about things!
I don't think much of Dabuz's view on Olimar or his ego, but he's allowed to think what he wants.

I love Olimar and I do think he has potential. He's just really complex and changed so much from Brawl.
The style of play, pikmin needed, combos to use, etc. all change so dramatically depending on so many conditions throughout the match, so you have to be really perceptive and invest a lot in him.

 

[EternalFlare]

May I ask what proper combos you guys are referring to? I wasn't aware Olimar had much in the way of true combos outside of down throw-fair at low percents.

 

[Myran]

Dthrow up smash is guaranteed on most characters at low percent. Especially with the proper pikmin used. Dthrow rar Bair is also guaranteed to higher mid percents with the right colors too. There's nair into uair when spaced right and dtilt into aerial or smashes depending on there percents. Hes got some guaranteed stuff.

 

[Blue Banana]

Down throw doesn't just lead into fair, it also leads into up air (or two if percent is low enough), fsmash at very low percents, or back air like Myran said. Down throw can also lead into some extended strings like dthrow -> fair -> jab combo -> grab reset and dthrow -> dtilt (multiple depending on character) -> jab combo -> grab reset, but that tends to be less guaranteed.

 

[koken]

On some characters you can Dthrow -> Fsmash and usually extends that same combos with dash grab + dthrow + fair.