Custom Parts (aka Equippable Items) for High-Level \ Tournament Play?

[TroperCase]

Hey everyone I don't post much here but thought it would be interesting to hear opinions (well, mostly speculation at this point) on this.

Who thinks Custom Parts (known as Equippable Items on smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2) will be popular among high-level players?

The reasons to disallow them are obvious; excluding them keeps everyone on a level playing field, not giving an unfair advantage to players who have better parts (through playing more or just dumb luck). Online With Anyone disallows them, which might imply (though not necessarily) that character balance is better in the "base" state. There also appear to be a good number of special effects; take those with the high number of characters in the game, and there are probably some gamebreaking combinations out there, even if the game is well tested.

But OTOH, there are custom parts that increase speed (including drop speed). There might even be special effects that increase hit-stun, or other elements, in a good way, to make the game more competitively deep. If Custom Parts can be shared, that would take care of the unfair advantage also.

Maybe we'll even see Customizations allowed but with restrictions. Like you can have up to +100 extra speed, but no +effect for anything else, as a simple way of speeding up the game without having to hack it. My guess is this kind of thing is what we'll be seeing after the dust settles.

Anyone feel like speculating? This is about Equippable Items specifically; talk about Custom Moves, etc is optional.

 

[TryHardOliver]

Straight up banned!

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I do not expect them to be accepted in most tournaments. However, I can see them being allowed in minor tournaments, exhibition tournaments or side events on occasion.

 

[Fenriraga]

Let's get customizable movesets in and situated before even THINKING about equipment.

 

[joefz2]

I can see them being used in friendlies but not in serious play.
However, this smash has the most customization yet so I expect new "modes" in tourneys

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I can see two problems resulting from the inclusion of these parts in tournaments:

- Though it will be less pronounced in 3DS Smash tournaments, it will be a pain to set up your character repeatedly on various Wii U consoles in tournaments. This will heavily slow down the tournament.

- If the parts are anything like Kid Icarus's weapons, there will be a large element of chance in the generation of items. Someone could end up coming in with top-tier parts with bonus effects and little downside, wiping the competition with the advantage gained.

If limitations and counterpicking items are implemented, though tournaments will take quite a while regardless, it might actually prove rather interesting for the events that allow them to be used. In the case of 3DS tournaments, this will be rather feasible, considering there is a setup for every player, drastically speeding up tournament time. Each round would end up lasting around 20 minutes or less regardless of the number of entrants, which would be a huge boon to tournament time that can afford to be leveled back with equipment setup and customization.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Although I have no inherent objections to the use of equipment in matches, I cannot see them being allowed in tournaments. The reason is that we know from the official website that equipment has at least somewhat randomized +/- stats attached to it. You may have a Max-Power Glove with +50 attack/-10 defense, while I have a Max-Power Glove with +105 attack/-21 defense. In order for equipment to be allowed in tournaments, it's vital that everyone have access to the same pool, that a standard exists, that you're not at an advantage (or disadvantage) just because the station you're at has a better (or worse) piece of equipment than what you're used to, or that your opponent in a 3DS match had more time to grid for optimal equipment.

This argument, by the way, does NOT apply to custom moves since every character has a) a finite number of custom moves and b) they lack the same variance as the equipment. You don't have to worry about making do with a Fire Orb +5 when you know a Fire Orb +10 exists out there, you just need to unlock the damn Fire Orb and that's it.

 

[Memor3x]

I say let the custom move sets get their footing and see how well the community responds before even trying to get custom parts into competitive play.

 

[Renji64]

Tourney no. Friendlys sure or side events.

 

[Raijinken]

Several existing threads on this, but I support them for tournament play. Encourages diversity, keeps things more skilled and less rehearsed. At worst, they may need some restrictions (such as disallowing certain gamebreaker setups or certain passive properties), but for the time being, I support having them available and unrestricted for competitive play.

C'mon guys, it's like saying you can't play with your own Pokemon because the IVs and EVs are unknown to your opponent, and only allow Rentals because you can know exactly what kills against those. It's silly.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Several existing threads on this, but I support them for tournament play. Encourages diversity, keeps things more skilled and less rehearsed. At worst, they may need some restrictions (such as disallowing certain gamebreaker setups or certain passive properties), but for the time being, I support having them available and unrestricted for competitive play.

C'mon guys, it's like saying you can't play with your own Pokemon because the IVs and EVs are unknown to your opponent, and only allow Rentals because you can know exactly what kills against those. It's silly.

In Pokemon, you have your own cartridge and the amount of time and effort you're willing to invest (or not) is entirely your business. In Smash, a tournament setup will have many different stations with their own save files, where consistency of equipment is paramount. There's no guarantee you'd be playing on your own machine anyway. I'd also argue that the mechanics of Smash further emphasize any (dis)advantages conferred by superior/inferior equipment, whereas Pokemon is turn based and half the battle is prep work anyway (putting your team together, selecting a subset for battle where rules dictate, and figuring out your opponent's moves).

EDIT: Given the different logistics between the 3DS and Wii U versions, the above mostly applies to the latter. It may turn out that after the Wii U version drops, the 3DS version will shift to a more Pokemon-esque ruleset where equipment is allowed since you're guaranteed to be using your own device and save file, and therefore the onus would be on you to figure out how to make it work. I'm still a bit iffy on the whole thing unless it turns out to be very simple to obtain a specific piece of equipment, but it's still more palatable.

 

[Niala]

I think we need more information before being able to make a decision on that. The biggest issue I can see is the accessibility and variance of equipment. From what I can tell, the equipment makes changes to a specific stat, whether that's speed, launch power, falling speed, jump, etc. by a numerical value, one positive, one negative. The big issue I can see with that, competitively, is if those numbers are random. In that case, the competitive scene would become a "who's played the game the most and discovered the best equipment," rather than an actual 1v1 fighting game.

Now, that having been said, if there's a specific set of say 30 different pieces of equipment for each character, I don't think it's that much of a problem, as long as we monitor it and set limitations based on necessity. If, for example, you can make your character do very, very little damage, but give them massive launch power such that an F-Smash at 0% runs the risk of killing, then there's a problem. It becomes strictly beneficial, and turns the game into a gimmick of Rock-Paper-Scissors, where whoever lands the first hit wins.

As usual, the answer is that we don't have enough information regarding it yet to form an opinion on it.

 

[Raijinken]

In Pokemon, you have your own cartridge and the amount of time and effort you're willing to invest (or not) is entirely your business. In Smash, a tournament setup will have many different stations with their own save files, where consistency of equipment is paramount. There's no guarantee you'd be playing on your own machine anyway. I'd also argue that the mechanics of Smash further emphasize any (dis)advantages conferred by superior/inferior equipment, whereas Pokemon is turn based and half the battle is prep work anyway (putting your team together, selecting a subset for battle where rules dictate, and figuring out your opponent's moves).

EDIT: Given the different logistics between the 3DS and Wii U versions, the above mostly applies to the latter. It may turn out that after the Wii U version drops, the 3DS version will shift to a more Pokemon-esque ruleset where equipment is allowed since you're guaranteed to be using your own device and save file, and therefore the onus would be on you to figure out how to make it work. I'm still a bit iffy on the whole thing unless it turns out to be very simple to obtain a specific piece of equipment, but it's still more palatable.

Good points, I was considering the 3DS version since that's where this was posted, and it will be relevant sooner. I can see it applying differently to each game. However, I could also see these items being used for "balancing" characters, and making certain builds of them standard in pro play. We'll have to see, though.

I think we need more information before being able to make a decision on that. The biggest issue I can see is the accessibility and variance of equipment. From what I can tell, the equipment makes changes to a specific stat, whether that's speed, launch power, falling speed, jump, etc. by a numerical value, one positive, one negative. The big issue I can see with that, competitively, is if those numbers are random. In that case, the competitive scene would become a "who's played the game the most and discovered the best equipment," rather than an actual 1v1 fighting game.

Now, that having been said, if there's a specific set of say 30 different pieces of equipment for each character, I don't think it's that much of a problem, as long as we monitor it and set limitations based on necessity. If, for example, you can make your character do very, very little damage, but give them massive launch power such that an F-Smash at 0% runs the risk of killing, then there's a problem. It becomes strictly beneficial, and turns the game into a gimmick of Rock-Paper-Scissors, where whoever lands the first hit wins.

As usual, the answer is that we don't have enough information regarding it yet to form an opinion on it.

I've heard many arguments saying that people who play more SHOULD be the ones winning, though it's typically from a practice standpoint rather than an unlock standpoint.

That said, I agree, it will certainly be more reasonable if there is a cap to stats or list of options per character. Alternately, it's possible that tournaments could simply regulate the stat differences and require they be within certain bounds. Doing that wouldn't be very different from banning certain stages or character exploits (Infinite Dim. Cape, for instance), though it would take more research, which seems like the most likely deterrent.

 

[Niala]

Good points, I was considering the 3DS version since that's where this was posted, and it will be relevant sooner. I can see it applying differently to each game. However, I could also see these items being used for "balancing" characters, and making certain builds of them standard in pro play. We'll have to see, though.


I've heard many arguments saying that people who play more SHOULD be the ones winning, though it's typically from a practice standpoint rather than an unlock standpoint.

That said, I agree, it will certainly be more reasonable if there is a cap to stats or list of options per character. Alternately, it's possible that tournaments could simply regulate the stat differences and require they be within certain bounds. Doing that wouldn't be very different from banning certain stages or character exploits (Infinite Dim. Cape, for instance), though it would take more research, which seems like the most likely deterrent.

I don't disagree that the players who spend more time playing should probably be the ones winning, but they should be winning because they're better at the game, not because they've spent months grinding out exceptional equipment. That's a system more appropriate for generic MMOs than Smash, I think.

But yes, it does require a lot of research and careful restrictions as necessary for it to work. I think there would need to be a semi-competitive community testing it for a couple of months before it would work out wide-scale.

 

[laces]

I think it'd be a waste of potential to straight up ban equipment before we even give them a shot. If balanced enough I think equipment could add an extra level of strategy/personalization.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Good points, I was considering the 3DS version since that's where this was posted, and it will be relevant sooner. I can see it applying differently to each game. However, I could also see these items being used for "balancing" characters, and making certain builds of them standard in pro play. We'll have to see, though.

It's a nice thought, but I have a hard time imagining the community coming to any sort of consensus on using equipment to balance the characters. First there will be the inevitable debates on who's strong/weak enough to merit such a thing, then how big a stat change is necessary, and finally everyone who wants to play a tournament ever will need that precise piece of equipment. (That logistics issue popping up again.)

I've heard many arguments saying that people who play more SHOULD be the ones winning, though it's typically from a practice standpoint rather than an unlock standpoint.

That said, I agree, it will certainly be more reasonable if there is a cap to stats or list of options per character. Alternately, it's possible that tournaments could simply regulate the stat differences and require they be within certain bounds. Doing that wouldn't be very different from banning certain stages or character exploits (Infinite Dim. Cape, for instance), though it would take more research, which seems like the most likely deterrent.

There's a difference between saying "I practiced more than you therefore I should win" and "I spent more time grinding for better equipment than you therefore I have a statistical advantage even though we're using the same character." The latter may fly in an RPG like Pokemon, but it's counter to what I feel should be the main focus of a fighting game.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Editing a character's stats is far too varied to have a solidified metagame based around it. That aspect will most likely be banned.

Now, if there is custom equipment that does not edit a character's stats, and just changes certain mechanics? That could potentially be viable for competitive play...but it would have to be heavily monitored.

Custom moves? Those could easily be viable. And if something is overpowered, that solitary move could just be banned. But not custom moves in their entirety.

 

[san.]

I've been a part of competitive games where you can adjust stats and equipment. I'll be heading into this with an open mind and analyze them for their own merits, but I doubt any tournaments will legalize them. I would hope for some side tournaments if they end up being accessible. I never felt that people being unable to adapt was a good excuse.

It's unfortunate that equipment gives you a net positive gain on stats as I would have preferred 1:1 tradeoffs. The information regarding gathering equipment is not fully known, too. The extra abilities are also worrisome and many seem overpowered.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Do we even know the equipment is randomized? Couldn't there just be different power levels for the same pieces?

 

[TheOthin]

If they really are randomly generated, I can't see it being viable. A fixed listing of equipment that everyone could unlock end end up on a level playing field could potentially be fine, but not one where different people will have access to completely different stuff. So I don't think it's looking viable, at least not for standard tournaments. (Despite voting to the contrary due to first thinking this was about custom moves.)

 

[laces]

How about equipment that only increases speed, making the game play faster/ more melee like?

 

[DairunCates]

I'm actually one of the bigger proponents for custom movesets, but yeah. I gotta say the items likely won't slide, and even if they do, it will be for specialty tournaments. From what we know about items, they'll be handled similarly to Kid Icarus: Uprising. If that's the case, there's just too much variability between items. You'd either need a set of items provided by the tournament or some way to at least slightly standardize them. Some people argue that pokemon has stat training too, but it's possible to EV train a pokemon properly without hundreds of hours dumped into it (IVs take significantly longer, but they're a lot more consistent too).

How about equipment that only increases speed, making the game play faster/ more melee like?

The problem is that a +speed item is likely gonna have a random bonus. So, you wouldn't have a fixed speed bonus.

 

[Raijinken]

For what it's worth, Dota and derivatives are very focused on the flexibility and versatility coming from having a wide variety of items available, but that doesn't address the availability issue, nor does it necessarily mean that's a good sort of balance or variety for Smash. I just think it's worth considering, as it could lead to a more interesting long-term metagame (for instance, years into the meta, once most systems have the majority of items available, it could be used to freshen up the metagame, as opposed to Melee and Brawl's very stagnant metagames).

 

[L9999]

The stat boosts, specially speed, could only be allowed for the hopeless characters like Zelda and Ike to make them at least decent. Obviously certain characters, like Kirby, Bowser and Zero Samus wouldn't have them, because if they do, then we would have another Meta Knight. Why not having an entire game of Meta Knights?

 

[laces]

That could be true. But if there did happen to be items that straight up buffed speed, then wouldn't that make the game more competitive? From what I've seen, it seems that items improve one attribute and and weaken another, for example, shoes that grant more speed but lessen attack. Would people accept tournaments that had characters move fast, but hit weaker? Heightened speed could allow for more combo potential, making up for the lack of overall damage output. Just a thought.

 

[L9999]

That could be true. But if there did happen to be items that straight up buffed speed, then wouldn't that make the game more competitive? From what I've seen, it seems that items improve one attribute and and weaken another, for example, shoes that grant more speed but lessen attack. Would people accept tournaments that had characters move fast, but hit weaker? Heightened speed could allow for more combo potential, making up for the lack of overall damage output. Just a thought.

Yes, but that would make another N64 Pikachu. Because maybe the characters with bad natural abilities get boosted, but those with better natural abilities get even more powerful so its right back at the beggining were said characters with good natural abilities are still ****** the ones that don't.

 

[Captain Norris]

The huge problem with these are that they are all random in stats in such (I have no link but I remember reading it somewhere) if they were universally the same, there wouldn't be a problem. Another problem would be having this and custom moves on at the same time. Those, along with all the other set ups, would be too time consuming imo.
Custom moves should be legal (with possible restrictions) while these items should not be.

 

[laces]

The huge problem with these are that they are all random in stats in such (I have no link but I remember reading it somewhere) if they were universally the same, there wouldn't be a problem. Another problem would be having this and custom moves on at the same time. Those, along with all the other set ups, would be too time consuming imo.
Custom moves should be legal (with possible restrictions) while these items should not be.

Random stats? Crap. I was really looking forward to how equipment would lend itself to the competitive scene. But if everything's random then I see how this might be too imbalanced to implement.

 

[L9999]

The huge problem with these are that they are all random in stats in such (I have no link but I remember reading it somewhere) if they were universally the same, there wouldn't be a problem. Another problem would be having this and custom moves on at the same time. Those, along with all the other set ups, would be too time consuming imo.
Custom moves should be legal (with possible restrictions) while these items should not be.

With that we create 2 different metas, 3DS and Wii U. Those who want the old fashion Melee like scene play on Wii U, and those that want to explore more, play 3DS because its your own system and your own stuff.

 

[laces]

With that we create 2 different metas, 3DS and Wii U. Those who want the old fashion Melee like scene play on Wii U, and those that want to explore more, play 3DS because its your own system and your own stuff.

That could be really interesting actually.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The huge problem with these are that they are all random in stats in such (I have no link but I remember reading it somewhere) if they were universally the same, there wouldn't be a problem. Another problem would be having this and custom moves on at the same time. Those, along with all the other set ups, would be too time consuming imo.
Custom moves should be legal (with possible restrictions) while these items should not be.

Random stats? Crap. I was really looking forward to how equipment would lend itself to the competitive scene. But if everything's random then I see how this might be too imbalanced to implement.

It's true. Read the bit on "Equippable Items." It's near the end of that section.

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

 

[Captain Norris]

It's true. Read the bit on "Equippable Items." It's near the end of that section.

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

Ah there it is! Thank you!

With that we create 2 different metas, 3DS and Wii U. Those who want the old fashion Melee like scene play on Wii U, and those that want to explore more, play 3DS because its your own system and your own stuff.

Here is the problem with that: there would then be too many different tourneys going on. Melee will still be prominent (most likely) as well as Project M. Then there will Smash 4. Although I would love having both in the same place, the Wii U will more than likely take over. However, I could see 3DS at smaller tournaments (since there will have to be less people for the wireless connection to work well) with that idea in mind.

 

[eRonin]

Well, let's assume for any one item, there is a *best possible* roll on the stats. This makes it no different to something like Pokemon or a PvP MMO where people will of course grind for the best possible outcome on stats. Players with less-than-perfect rolls will be disadvantaged, but that doesn't stop competitive players in Pokemon/MMOs from striving to get the best items.

Having said that though, I feel that grinding for equipment isn't fun and distracts from the main components of the game. So I voted for banned.

 

[laces]

It's true. Read the bit on "Equippable Items." It's near the end of that section.

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

That's disappointing. But I think it'd be interesting to try out equipment anyway, just for the sake of experimentation and fun. Let's just go balls to the wall! Try and get the best equipment we can in game and use it. I still love the idea of personalizing your character to make it your own.

 

[Captain Norris]

Well, let's assume for any one item, there is a *best possible* roll on the stats. This makes it no different to something like Pokemon or a PvP MMO where people will of course grind for the best possible outcome on stats. Players with less-than-perfect rolls will be disadvantaged, but that doesn't stop competitive players in Pokemon/MMOs from striving to get the best items.

Having said that though, I feel that grinding for equipment isn't fun and distracts from the main components of the game. So I voted for banned.

The difference is that Pokemon is based entirely around that randomness and movesets and strategy. Plus, there are ways of getting that max stat quite easily.
Smash is a fighting game that everyone should have access to the exact same stuff they have own their game back at home. They do not want things to change when they are used to something.

 

[eRonin]

The difference is that Pokemon is based entirely around that randomness and movesets and strategy. Plus, there are ways of getting that max stat quite easily.
Smash is a fighting game that everyone should have access to the exact same stuff they have own their game back at home. They do not want things to change when they are used to something.

Yep, this is why I am okay with breeding in Pokemon but am in favour of banning custom parts in Smash. It was somewhat possible in Kid Icarus to "breed" items together and that might be a thing in Smash, but unless you can always keep your items then yeah, definitely baaaanned.

 

[Captain Norris]

Yep, this is why I am okay with breeding in Pokemon but am in favour of banning custom parts in Smash. It was somewhat possible in Kid Icarus to "breed" items together and that might be a thing in Smash, but unless you can always keep your items then yeah, definitely baaaanned.

Yeah. But I think custom moves are still possible.
Great to see another Falcon fan.

 

[Gabukin]

Honestly I don't know. I feel like they will be fun for a side tournament but Definitely banned in serious tournaments.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

I don't really see the competitive scene accepting custom parts, there's far too much diversity to it.
But on the bright side, custom moves have a good shot. ^^

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

It's true. Read the bit on "Equippable Items." It's near the end of that section.

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

But is that random or preset?