Culture of Banning certain Custom moves. Creating better logistics aswell.

[Electric91]

In the end, it all comes down to sets being banned or just 4 moves maximum. And even then, most are debatable.

Many of you are giving feedback, a lot are aggressive too, which I don't get the attitude, but can understand the point of the posts. This is an experimental post, after all.

We're reduced to a couple of options now:

Banning sets

Banning 1 or 2 custom moves permanently

Finding Ban criterias

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Like i said earlier, i really don't want that version of "ban all or ban nothing" posts. I get them. And in return, this is an alternative for pro-costum people. Really, last thing we want is to stall once again. All i feel from this vibe, is that we're stalling ourselves rather than advancing in the situation, which is why, it is OK to experiment those things.

We're trying the ban with 2 moves in a customs on tournament. We'll see how it goes on Friday.

If it can get better and ban "sets" rather than "moves", why not? All I personally want is to unlock the stalling and move forward with this project. The Hiatus isn't fun, and any of you going back to the whole "ban all or nothing" is starting to become ridiculous. LET the others experiment, without having to bring in your grain of salt in here. We got your opinions, there are like 5 threads where everyone went head and heels over every situation.


---

I don't see much of the point in banning "vanilla" moves. They're supposed to be the most balanced move in the game. I'd actually prefer banning sets with vanilla moves, and not a default move itself. This is conceptually deficient. At a point, we could even ban falcon's jab for being too long because we don't agree with the way sakurai made the game.

This isn't a post for you guys to vent your frustration, it's a post to ADVANCE IN THE PROJECT. This is maybe not the perfect solution, at least, We're trying some and this is the important part.

My rant is over, and I want to go back to the project.

---

BEFORE we ban anything, some of the things others said are right.

We need a definition of what is BANNABLE. On my end, it was "degenerate" gameplay, overamplification of a playstyles characteristic or even not great to watch / perform.

In the end, banning means restriction, which means restricting a characters playstyle to an extent, for x or y reason.

 

[Goesasu]

If you are willing to ban customs you must be willing to ban default moves as well, only way to achieve true balace am i right?

Needle storm, Bouncing Fish, Vanish, Boost kick, monkey flip etc... are even more powerul than kong cyclone, explosive ballons, hammer spin dash and heavy skull bash.

Banning customs and not default moves would be hypocrital.

 

[Electric91]

The title does state "banning custom moves" ... Who would want a standards in a competition where even a default move isn't accessible?

In all honesty, would you see evo using custom moves again if we banned Bouncing Fish?

 

[Goesasu]

The title does state "banning custom moves" ... Who would want a standards in a competition where even a default move isn't accessible?

In all honesty, would you see evo using custom moves again if we banned Bouncing Fish?

Then banning any custom lacks of sense at all.

If you are banning a custom move for being too powerful then you must also ban equally powerful default moves. If you are not willing to do that then you are just banning custom moves for no reason.

If you are not willing to do this then no ban is acceptable at all.

 

[Electric91]

So, where would the whole thing lead to you? What's your point?

If it is giving sense to banning a custom, it's not helping.

By the way, it's not "me" who wouldn't be willing, i'm doing this for the community. It's not my call, if you want to ban a default move, you can, I just don't see how it would help customs to be viable for the next major. If anything, this'll make things more ridiculous then they are.

Did anyone say anything about Default moves? Yet everyone is speaking about how certain custom moves is making the game unenjoyable, etc.

I simply don't see the desired qualification in your statement. It gives me trouble taking it seriously as a whole. No disrespect, it's all being said with my outmost respect.

EDIT: Adding back the question as it has NO answer still: Would you see Custom moves back to Evo if we banned Bouncing fish?

 

[Goesasu]

So, where would the whole thing lead to you? What's your point?

If it is giving sense to banning a custom, it's not helping.

By the way, it's not "me" who wouldn't be willing, i'm doing this for the community. It's not my call, if you want to ban a default move, you can, I just don't see how it would help customs to be viable for the next major. If anything, this'll make things more ridiculous then they are.

Did anyone say anything about Default moves? Yet everyone is speaking about how certain custom moves is making the game unenjoyable, etc.

I simply don't see the desired qualification in your statement. It gives me trouble taking it seriously as a whole. No disrespect, it's all being said with my outmost respect.

EDIT: Adding back the question as it has NO answer still: Would you see Custom moves back to Evo if we banned Bouncing fish?

Thats the whole point, people are just been childish. No custom moves deserves a ban anymore than a lot of default moves. People actually cry a lot about needle storm but they just accept it for being a default move. Kong cyclone is a custom move so if people whine its ok to ban it in a custom meta? double stantard right here.

"If" the whole point of custom is making the game more enjoyable, with more competitive viable chars, with better balancing, then overpowered default moves should be treated just like overpowered customs moves. I bet ya that in any poll needle storm would be voted banned if that was an option.

For all of the above, as long as we arent willing to ban any default moves we shouldnt be willing to ban any custom move.

 

[Electric91]

Anyway,

A ban would be acceptable, as stated for me, to dampen an overamplified playstyle (Villager, Donkey kong?) and to appease viewers.

Appeasing viewers means dampening the overamplified camping from Villager.

Donkey kong's kong cyclone is really fun to watch, but combined with storm punch, it's simply too much. That's why it warrants a ban, at least, we can even go back and say that Storm punch and Kong cyclone as a set can be banned.

I'm pretty sure other moves are also causing problems as a whole, since they're mostly not patched. If i made a whole thread for just 2 moves to be banned or 2 sets, than at least, it went somewhere, and i'd personally start by banning them in online & local tournaments we host.

Thoughts over this?

Are there other factors that people could bring out about ban criterias?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wouldn't bet all my coins to the viewers. They are important, yes, but you can't let them dictate your ruleset.

You MUST be at least able to put Default and Custom moves under the same scope and judge them for being "overcentralizing" or #broken" all the same.
If you think Kong Cyclone is too good, and that some Custom moves are too good for Doubles, then at least suspect default Needles, and GnW's Bucket.

I'd be fine with banning certain customs if the ban criteria is clear and non-biased towards the default.

 

[Electric91]

I wouldn't bet all my coins to the viewers. They are important, yes, but you can't let them dictate your ruleset.

You MUST be at least able to put Default and Custom moves under the same scope and judge them for being "overcentralizing" or #broken" all the same.
If you think Kong Cyclone is too good, and that some Custom moves are too good for Doubles, then at least suspect default Needles, and GnW's Bucket.

I'd be fine with banning certain customs if the ban criteria is clear and non-biased towards the default.

I'll give credit to this. Maybe one of the few answers that isn't heading towards mindlessly bashing this thread and actually is helping out a point of view or another;

I'll give this another thought later on as I got pretty frustrated & angry at some of the answers I read earlier. To be completely honest I've rarely felt disgusted from some peoples behaviour. Thank you for acting decent.

It's maybe another way from the official custom set that is stickied above from AA, i'm only acting in emergency because too many states are dropping customs, which is really alarming. It's forcing a division in the community imho.

Anyway back to what you said, we can definitely scope the default moves as well. Ban them so early, not sure.

The ban criteria must be clear, I can't define it on my own, though. We have to use what we have been seeing and read the lines through recent feedbacks to establish a clear & structured ban criteria.

Actually, it should really be "innocent until proven guilty". So far, extreme balloon trip is the only one that is coming back.

 

[Raijinken]

Pikachu (TWave/HSB)? Fox (Twisting Fox/Falco laser)? Luigi (Quick Missile)? Diddy Kong (Rocketbarrel Attack)? Villager (Timber Counter/Extreme Balloon Trip/Pushy Lloid)? Sonic (Hammer Spin Dash/Double Spring)?

Pikachu's the closest of those to actually being top-tier, and Thunder Wave just got nerfed (I do not consider HSB banworthy alone). I've never seen a Fox run Falcolasers, and while I've heard some theory on Twisting Fox, I've never observed it in action either. He's also high, not top, tier. I've never seen use of Quick Missile (or, for that matter, any Non-Iceball customs on Luigi). Rocketbarrel Attack is very decidedly a double-edged sword for hindering his recovery (Diddy's also one of the more wishy-washy characters in terms of whether he's currently top or high tier), Villager isn't top tier on any list I've seen, and Sonic, regardless of tier placing (typically high, not top, from what I've seen) is degenerate by design (and there've been discussions elsewhere about whether Double Spring does anything but let him run away better).

Rosalina gets one "vital" (Shooting Star Bit), and one situationally useful (Luma Warp) custom. Sheik has two very situational ones. Zamus gets a situational one. (This is using the Community Voted tier list as of the time of posting and marking the top two tiers as top tier). Meanwhile, by the same list, every character from Swordfighter up through at least DK and possibly as far as ROB, bar Mewtwo because DLC, generally gains improvement from customs, even if such improvements aren't enough to result in a tier hop.

 

[Electric91]

About fox, i'm not sure if his moves alone are ban worthy, I don't think fox is degenerate by himself. Even less with customs. That's yet to be seen imo.. Maybe some set can get banned if it's horrible, i just can't think of one with fox.

Right now the only banned one is Extreme balloon from villager. I'm thinking we should ban in sets, and lots above are cheering for "defaults" to get a ban. I'm unsure where this is going.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm kind of fine with banning EBT, mostly because there's no downside to it.

Balloon Trip alone is a move that goes REALLY far but it is vulnerable.
Exploding Balloon Trip covers less distance by mashing, but pressing A gets you a really high jump, on top of that (no pun intended) is safe thanks to its explosions, basically allowing Villagers to recover from anywhere while covering themselves from attacks (both onstage AND offstage).

Counter Timber itself is negligible.

 

[Electric91]

I agree with you, Counter Timber is mostly just a banana peel that stays in place. It's really easy to avoid if you're on a stage like battlefield or even castle siege where it would mean nothing in certain transformations.

 

[Charey]

While I would overall prefer to not ban any customs, I go think we may need to ban some to get customs accepted as a whole. We need to be VERY careful with bans, if we are not careful we will start to remove good customs with the bad.

The move I would first think about banning would be EBT. While banana sapling is annoying it has good non-stalling play as a part of Villager's overall playstyle, so far the ONLY use of EBT has been stalling/planking. Most of the other moves that are complained about are complained for how strong/strange they are. EBT on the other hand is actually promoting degenerate play by bringing back a tactic that got so bad in the last game that we made a rule just to remove it's prevalence and got the ledge mechanics as a whole reworked in this game to prevent it.

Even if banning defaults seems like generally a bad idea, I would still put G&W default Bucket under suspect for doubles, it's the broken part of the Sheik + G&W strategy that got that team banned at EVO already, and before they patched it was the center of a G&W + Pikachu tactic that also got that team banned.

 

[Electric91]

I've edited the ban criteria, hopefully this clears things up a bit.

Also, i added your suspicions over the list!

 

[Electric91]

I really hope this thread comes to a conclusion to where people will be convinced about the result.

On my end, if this doesn't work and we're not convinced about it, no one else will be. We all have to work together. If we're not willing to that, RIP customs for me.

 

[clydeaker]

I understand why Mii Fighter custom moves should be legal in a non custom tournament. But what about Custom Height and Weight?
Let me explain...

In a Customs-Off tournament there aren't any custom sets like at EVO. This is alright because every character including DLC fighters all have a default 1111 set... That is except for Mii Fighters. This means that in order for Mii Fighters to be legal in tournaments they need to have custom Mii Fighter sets made on or transfered to every Wii U in one way or another.

Custom Mii Fighters can easily be made using the default height and weight guest Miis, but if you want to make your own custom Mii Fighter with height and weight customizations you would ether need to make it on a 3DS (assuming you have one) to transfer to each Wii U, use a custom pre-made height and weight set with the correct custom moves made before the tournament like the EVO sets. or spend an extensive amount of time making it from scratch on each Wii U before each match (not recommended).

Making a default Height and Weight 1111 Mii for Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner is quite ease, but when you start to include custom Moves, Height, and Weight. let alone visual Mii Faces, head, color, outfits, and headgear customizations. Things can get a little messy.

Remember one of the main reasons people choose 'vanilla' Smash over Custom Smash is because its there by default. No custom move farming, transferring, taking time to make each set, taking time to customize and test each Mii etc. Because Mii Fighters don't have a default set you ether need to have a 3DS (this shouldn't be required for tournaments) or you need to use a custom pre-made set (most likely the EVO sets).
On a side note Custom Hight and Weight in addition to Custom Moves may offend other players due to the massive scale of mechanical customizations possible. Let alone visual customizations such as Mii faces, heads, colors, Outfits, and Headgear.

Just for fun lets break this down mathematically:

Spoiler

- On the Nintendo 3DS Mii Maker there are a total of 53 notches on both the height and weight sliders. this means there are a total of 2,809 possible individual customizations of height and weight possible on the Nintendo 3DS.

- On the Wii U Mii Maker there are a total of 128 notches on both the height and weight sliders. This means there are a total of 16,384 possible individual customizations of height and weight possible on the Wii U.

- Whether or not each customization of height and weight play differently in Smash I do not know.

- Due to the massive number of customizations lets break it down to only a total of 5 evenly spaced notches placed at every 1/4 point on the slider of both the Wii U and 3DS Height and Weight sliders. This means there are a total of 25 different average height and weight customizations possible.

- If we were to make all 25 Mii Height and Weight customizations on one Nintendo 3DS and transfer them to each Wii U ahead of time this would allow for every Mii Fighter main to easily pick their height and weight customization as easily as picking a Default guest mii would be. then all they have to do is name it (Preferably with something unique), pick the custom moves, and finally save it. This would only take about 2 minuets.

- Let's top this off with Mii fighter mains who have there own 3DS with them. they can upload their own personal custom Mii Fighter(s) w/ height and weight customizations very easily. this would only take about 1 minuet. probably just a fast as it would take to sync a Pro controller and customize a controller scheme. Also if you don't have a 3DS and your TO or a fellow player is nice enough you could easily make your Mii Fighter on their 3DS and use it transfer it for each match up quickly. you can even include custom Mii faces/ heads, cloths colors, outfits, and headgear without waisting any more tournament time.

- In addition to all of this lets include the already popular Mii Fighters EVO Custom Move sets. this means that they can pick a character just as fast as any other character without having to waist any time. Not even to change the custom button from off to on. and if they don't want to use these lame small height and they can easily transfer from a 3DS or make their own in only a few minuets.

- Finally to top it off in addition to the EVO sets, Include a Default Mii fighter set for each of the 3 Mii Fighters (preferably to look like the the release photos of them) with the default Height and Weight with the default 1111 Custom special moves set. and if thats not enough include the 2222 and 3333 sets as well. This will hopefully make it up to all of the people who think Mii Fighters should have a default set like everyone else.

- There are a total of 99 custom Miis that can be stored on each system. With the 49 total EVO sets along with the 9 default additional sets you will have 41 empty spots for any other custom Mii Fighter mains. other players are welcome to delete these if theres not enough room for their own personal Mii fighter sets.

- Compared to the normal or DLC character who has 1 possible custom set (the default 1111) along with the 8 (sometimes 16) possible alternate consumes. the Mii fighters custom height and weight (25 average placed combinations), 3 possible characters, 3 up specials, 3 side specials, 3 down specials, 3 neutral specials, theres a total of 2,025 possible mechanical combinations for each of the 3 Mii fighters compared to the 1 possible mechanical combination for each character with customs off.

- let alone the massive amount of visual customizations of Mii's face, head, hair, eye, eyebrow, nose, mouths, facial hair, facial additions, Clothes colors, Outfits, and headgear to get much more that 227,529 x 3 compared to the possible 8 (sometimes 16) possible alternate costumes for other characters.

In conclusion Mii Fighters with Customized Special Moves, Height, and Weight are very much possible.

My personal opinion:

Spoiler

Just like how Custom moves were very much possible at EVO, Custom Mii Fighters in a non-custom tournament are as well, however they completely contradict with major reasons Custom Moves are getting banned for. (excluding time custom farming) the massive amount of time, planning, and setting up for only 3 characters is reasonable. Although we love the idea of Mii fighter being legal in non custom tournaments, Many people fell for the future of Smash 4 Mii fighters would be better off with customs on. but if they were to be legal in a non custom tournament TO's would say there customs would be better off dumbed down to only a few default and popular sets (yes with some custom sets), but with less possible customizations for height and weight for each Mii Fighter character, or off like in For Glory mode.

 

[Electric91]

They're perfectly possible. I'm completely in favor for mii's to have their customs. Actually that's already activated in our tournaments. The only debates revolves around "height" and "weight";

 

[erico9001]

Anybody seen this video?:

 

[Wintermelon43]

ugh I hate when people suggest this. it's either all customs allowed or all customs not allowed people, make up your mind.

 

[Electric91]

ugh I hate when people don't read my thread. It's either read all the thread and say something conclusive or don't, make up your mind.

 

[Illuminose]

I think Overswarm's video is really bad and understates every single move he mentions. It's not...'just' that easy. I don't like when people bring up that video because it's not really representative of much.

 

[smashbro29]

Banning certain customs is going too far. None of them are extreme enough for that. If people like this were in charge of 3S Chun-Li's Legs Super would be banned within a month.

I hate this ban culture in smash, don't ban it. Adapt.

Yes, unlike other games we need to cull some stages and make a standard format for time reasons but that should be the exception not the rule.