Culture of Banning certain Custom moves. Creating better logistics aswell.

[Electric91]

Alright, so i've been a pro-custom since the beginning.

I strongly believe that they add strong flavour to the game, and expands the meta in a GOOD way.

Lately, I've seen a lot of threads about custom debates, but NO action. This thread, is made purely for action. What i've seen in debates are both pro custom and anti custom people coming in, with their different opinions. Sorry not so sorry, anti-custom folks, this has only resulted in a CLEAR division in the smash 4 community. It's a shame, and it is what it is. If you're NOT in favour for customs, this is NOT the thread to express it. This thread is made BY the pro costum community FOR the pro-costum community. I believe that both have the right to exist, and the day that they will be easier of access, you're most welcome to adopt them in your own tournaments / at home / wherever you are. Now that was your little filet as for my piece of mind to what these debates have become, today, i'm here to actually take an action as i'm one of the main person to support custom since its early release. I'm speaking here as a TO.

I believe that what we've seen in Evo was really good, customs showed good stuff, that more characters were viable thanks to them; i'm not here to name them.

The point of this thread, is that, I believe that in order for custom moves to be eligible in another major, if we do want to see them with a light at one point, we have to work HARDER on them. What we saw at evo was good, but not enough.

Do banning certain moves will make the path brighter for us? I believe so. Since Nintendo isn't really balancing some moves the way we'd like, it's up to us to take care of the "competitive" meta ourselves, and preserve the nature of what customs brings to the game: expanding/amplifying a characters characteristic.


This is a thread where we should proceed to ban customs, and discuss them. It has no intent to feed a system of manipulation of the Meta, it isn't there so that we eliminate the playstyle of a particular character. That means, if villager is campy, NOTHING here will be done to eliminate this process.

First of all:

• WHY ban certain custom moves?

We're banning certain custom moves because we are not getting the desired results from recent patches.

Banning certain moves will allow some characters to have this VERY amplified characteristic and degenerate aspect of their game dampened just at the right balance for the game with customs on, such as the villager tripping seed + exploding balloons setup.
The point in restricting people on using a certain move or even SET, is to disallow degenerate gameplay, are generally overcentralising, or give a chance for "broken" play. (Broken play means broken custom moves / set)

Broken, would mean that the move or set would react differently to the games will. It would mean that the selected move or set would be game-breaking, and would create great imbalance for the game / matchup.





Once again, I insist, Having this thread turn into a fest of "why ban, it's stupid ; "Ban everything or ban nothing;" will not get us anywhere. Please take this opinion with you and carry it elsewhere. I will not tolerate circle jerking over this thread.

It is just the way things are going right now, and we need to take care of what we are doing else everything will fall apart.

I personally prefer banning a couple of moves to make the game a little more enjoyable then to let it sink and not have them at all.


--------------


So far, i've decided on banning a couple of moves, but of course, as a community, one man cannot do all the shots. Which is why there are a lot of moves up for debates, and a lot of them to which i definitely feel we should ban.


I took the liberty to copy the Evo custom sheets, and revamp the layout to a more fitting "ban worthy" move or not.

Banned Moves:

VILLAGER:

• Up Special: Extreme Balloon Trip

This is the proposed banned move up for ban right now. I'm hosting Online tournaments in the Hypest Team, We will be running Customs ON tournaments with this setting. We may ban some other sets all together, but they're probably not as hard to counter with extreme balloon trip gone.

There are MORE moves that we'd like to make our researches on, and see if they are truly ban worthy.

Right now, we're looking at Fox, which has a lot of moves and can be controversial for the character itself.

Actually, here is the google doc we are working with. All the moves that have "To check" on the column are where our researches are put up.

To check doesn't mean that they're being looked upon for banning, it only means we have to test the move, and see if it is overpowered, or actually benefits the character in a slight way and is actually GOOD for the character.

GOOGLE DOC HERE

Remember, the point of this isn't to weaken and control the meta of our game, it is to balance match ups as much as we can for competitive play.


I'm also in debate with my team, to see if we should ban certain Sets instead of certain moves, since some moves by themselves are actually GOOD, and not threatening on its own, but can become very ridiculous in itself as a set - Like villagers Timber counter & exploding balloon.

Moves that I still haven't checked or are up for debate:


LUCARIO:

• Neutral: Snaring Aura Sphere - (Doubles only)

Pikachu:

• - Special: Heavy Skull Bash -
• Character banned for Doubles with sheik

Donkey Kong:

• Set: Cyclone + Storm Punch (Pretty much not a threat if you know the matchup)

Game & Watch:

• Bucket (For doubles with Sheik)

Mii's are only subjections to size restraints, as of the recent patch their customs are being balanced.

Anyones input over these are the best. They're still in for check because either i didn't unlock them, or didn't go through them yet. Fox is maybe the most looked upon for us right now.

 

[Pyr]

I am 100% against customs, but I will say none of them warrant a ban at all. I mean, polarizing and annoying stuff has existed in fighting games for forever. Not a single custom move listed is even really pulling results. Can't even think of a custom that fits one of the bigger ban criteria, namely degeneration of game play. Let people have the sappling or Avatar-Kong. None of them are destroying game play in a meaningful way. And, before anyone says anything, being able to turtle better is not destroying the game at all. Defensive play isn't bad.

 

[Raijinken]

I will start off by saying: Thanks for starting the discussion, I like your goals and generally agree with them.

However, just glancing over the list, I'm curious about your ban logic. From a generally competitive stance, there's this word the community likes throwing around, "Degenerate". It's the one quality I, personally, think a custom should cause before it's considered for banning.

I'd like to inquire about your proposed Banned Moves, and what reasoning went into them, and, to the point, whether or not you/your players find them annoying, or if they actually promote degenerate play. Perhaps to jump the gun a bit, I would like to comment on all five of them and why I don't think they are the problems.

Storm Punch: It essentially amounts to a stronger FLUDD on an otherwise-weaker character. It's air-dodgable, and trades off some direct-hit kill potential. Can't be comboed into or anything like that to my knowledge.

Kong Cyclone: Certainly a closer case than Storm Punch, but much of what I see with Cyclone is a result of unfamiliarity. It's grabbable, interruptable pre-start and at the end, and is essentially only a strong issue on Battlefield where platform-landings give DK a relatively strong approach or escape game. Aside from the clear questions like "why would you let Cyclone Kong go to Battlefield anyway", I have to wonder if/how this results in degenerate play when it has clear (and, in my experience and observation, actually quite easy) counterplay.

Timber Counter: I feel like hatred for Timber Counter is misplaced. It's irritating, yes, but hardly moreso than the Banana, and not throwable. It commits Villager for a very long time to a particular trap on-stage, and taking it instead of default sacrifices a rather strong kill move. It's rare to see it used for the tree, either, and promoting it to the tree is the only way to discard it for repositioning.

The bigger issue in terms of degeneracy is Extreme Balloon Trip. It provides Villager a very safe way to plank, and the risk/reward for doing so is heavily out of whack that choosing another strategy appears (currently) to be like trying to play rushdown villager (in other words, nonsensical or born of a significant skill gap). Timber Counter, in conjunction thereof, makes the issue more severe. However, unlike a moveset with just Timber Counter (which I wouldn't fear), a moveset with just Extreme Balloon Trip is far more likely to be run as a plank-fest.

At the very least, I now support banning both from being run on the same set, but if either is to be banned singularly, I believe Extreme Balloon Trip to be the offender.

Meteor Trampoline: As an on-stage trap, its benefits are rare: you might trick someone into stepping on it while it's red. As an off-stage trap, it's benefits are essentially unheard of. And as an off-stage recovery, it's a poor substitute for the default, as you don't gain repeat height on bounces. I don't see any way this is either degenerate or hard to play around.

Dire Hydrant: Perhaps your scene is different, but aside from some "what the heck" reactions from my friends when I was briefly maining Pac-Man, I've never seen this move used, much less used more effectively than default or On-Fire Hydrant. It sacrifices one of Pac-Man's key tools for an extremely limited version.

Looking over your doc a bit, there are several "to check" (and, if the green indicates one that was previously suspect and has been checked) specials that have me concerned for the thought process behind them, as well. For instance, Guardian Luma, which is a minor tradeoff only marginally useful in matchups against non-projectile-users. Or Stunning Straight Lunge, which relies on reaching the unlikely full charge in order to become relevant. Slip Bomb is suspect but the infinitely-more-flexible Banana isn't? Entangling Tornado, utterly unused by Metaknight players last I checked, is suspect? Meanwhile Wolf Flash is a... maybe suspect maybe banned sidegrade? Mario's Gust Cape is free of suspicion, but Dr. Mario's Breezy Sheet (almost literally the same move) is suspect? There's just a lot that seems logically inconsistent, or resulting from a smaller playerbase's narrow exposure, as if the players polled had only read the theory and description without actually using the moves. I'll (presently) defend Helicopter Kick to my last breath, but it (one of the more frequent arguments against Mii legality or customs) is assumed fine, as is Swordfighter's Chakram which now has what appears to be an infinite 0-death-able combo?

I'd also like to ask: Why, when the stated intent is to lead to balanced matchups, are default specials given a free pass? It's generally considered a given that Needles are one of, if not the, most broken specials in the game from a versatility and effectiveness stance, yet Penetrating Needles, a variant almost strictly for shield damage and Castle Siege, is considered suspect?


Again, I agree with the need to discuss and consider some bans, but I feel like a lot of your criteria and considerations are misplaced. This could well just be my views on the moves not aligning with your own, but I'd be interested to hear some analysis or explanation.

 

[Electric91]

Thank you very much for those much appreciated point of views.

I will start by saying that this is specifically a draft still, and nothing is final in here, it's all completely open for debate, and the point of this thread is to hopefully set us on the right path and have a stop at all the debates we've seen, as this was a long standstill.

We'd end up never banning anything if we had to prove that some customs are broken. They're not. I'm talking in reaction to "degenerate" play. What players are telling me, are usually after "finding" a pair of set completely hard or incredibly hard to counter, as they have just lost to them. It's very rare for me to take account of what they tell me, because 80% of it is emotion. The rest of it is a discovery, and it's up to us to see if the set is "broken" or actually can be countered. For all the cases i've been shown, there IS an actual counter to the sets, and it's part of the process for players to adapt against the offending sets.
Once I ban a move, it's either to dampen a playstyle to an extent, or because it is completely degenerate, and that nintendo/sakurai never made anything about it, and suspect they never will.

I'll start by going on your point per point analysis. You are right about a lot of things, I didn't get the chance to test everything still, it has been literally tens of hours i'm working on the documents and sets, so at a point, without much break, it's normal that I did mistakes.


I think too, that some moves in "sets" should be banned, and not so much themselves. At this point, i'm convinced that my view was misplaced over Villagers exploding ballon & the tripping seed.
I'll go over & edit this in a little.

I myself am one of the people who found VERY early the counter to kong's cyclone & storm punch; ganon found to be a perfect counter, the only reason i've got them banned, was because of all the complaints i've been hearing, or at least, to dampen the way this set have been played. Donkey kong can be played really well with other sets, and be just as strong. We could actually keep one of the two moves, or simply ban the set as well. The point of it all is to start somewhere.

Meteor Trampoline: I've played a couple of people who used it, and it is extremely disgusting. It promotes an easy playstyle of pushing you away from the ledge, recovering, and pushing you back to the trampoline to spike you. It's not hard to counter, just a disgusting promotion of a playstyle.

Dire Hydrant: Very Arguable, I'd love to hear more about it, I'd unban it if it's a "wtf" move from my part, as exhaustion can be a part of this.


Over the doc - Once they are in a green "no" it means they have been suspicious and released of suspicion. There were actually 60 of them. I've been playing this game since the early 3DS release, and there are still some moves i didn't unlock. So some just seemed a bit "wtf", and put them on suspicion, once we saw what they actually were, we just took them off. We can be suspicious for the least thing, once I've put something in suspicion, I start by looking at everything about the move. The frames, how it changes from range to range, if rage affects, and how it could fit in with other sets of the characters. We also think of what way the character could be played, and actually, by using some moves, Experimenting with them, there are actually even more cool ways to play these characters we have yet to see.

Each ban I did was never taken lightly, and went with several debates before even bringing them up here.

I'll start and add each of your suspicions in the list, and have them tested later on.


The point about default playstyles: We definitely brought that point up, and I too think that at a point we can force a "vanilla" playstyle to be off the charts. It's part of the process, maybe just too early right now for it to happen. I fear that if I do this now, this thread might have no future, I really am just putting a foot on the door, and seeing the reaction in general. I'm actually glad you brought this up, I just don't want to be hasty.


Thank you so much for your input!

 

[Raijinken]

Thank you very much for those much appreciated point of views.

I will start by saying that this is specifically a draft still, and nothing is final in here, it's all completely open for debate, and the point of this thread is to hopefully set us on the right path and have a stop at all the debates we've seen, as this was a long standstill.

We'd end up never banning anything if we had to prove that some customs are broken. They're not. I'm talking in reaction to "degenerate" play. What players are telling me, are usually after "finding" a pair of set completely hard or incredibly hard to counter, as they have just lost to them. It's very rare for me to take account of what they tell me, because 80% of it is emotion. The rest of it is a discovery, and it's up to us to see if the set is "broken" or actually can be countered. For all the cases i've been shown, there IS an actual counter to the sets, and it's part of the process for players to adapt against the offending sets.
Once I ban a move, it's either to dampen a playstyle to an extent, or because it is completely degenerate, and that nintendo/sakurai never made anything about it, and suspect they never will.

I'll start by going on your point per point analysis. You are right about a lot of things, I didn't get the chance to test everything still, it has been literally tens of hours i'm working on the documents and sets, so at a point, without much break, it's normal that I did mistakes.


I think too, that some moves in "sets" should be banned, and not so much themselves. At this point, i'm convinced that my view was misplaced over Villagers exploding ballon & the tripping seed.
I'll go over & edit this in a little.

I myself am one of the people who found VERY early the counter to kong's cyclone & storm punch; ganon found to be a perfect counter, the only reason i've got them banned, was because of all the complaints i've been hearing, or at least, to dampen the way this set have been played. Donkey kong can be played really well with other sets, and be just as strong. We could actually keep one of the two moves, or simply ban the set as well. The point of it all is to start somewhere.

Meteor Trampoline: I've played a couple of people who used it, and it is extremely disgusting. It promotes an easy playstyle of pushing you away from the ledge, recovering, and pushing you back to the trampoline to spike you. It's not hard to counter, just a disgusting promotion of a playstyle.

Dire Hydrant: Very Arguable, I'd love to hear more about it, I'd unban it if it's a "wtf" move from my part, as exhaustion can be a part of this.


Over the doc - Once they are in a green "no" it means they have been suspicious and released of suspicion. There were actually 60 of them. I've been playing this game since the early 3DS release, and there are still some moves i didn't unlock. So some just seemed a bit "wtf", and put them on suspicion, once we saw what they actually were, we just took them off. We can be suspicious for the least thing, once I've put something in suspicion, I start by looking at everything about the move. The frames, how it changes from range to range, if rage affects, and how it could fit in with other sets of the characters. We also think of what way the character could be played, and actually, by using some moves, Experimenting with them, there are actually even more cool ways to play these characters we have yet to see.

Each ban I did was never taken lightly, and went with several debates before even bringing them up here.

I'll start and add each of your suspicions in the list, and have them tested later on.


The point about default playstyles: We definitely brought that point up, and I too think that at a point we can force a "vanilla" playstyle to be off the charts. It's part of the process, maybe just too early right now for it to happen. I fear that if I do this now, this thread might have no future, I really am just putting a foot on the door, and seeing the reaction in general. I'm actually glad you brought this up, I just don't want to be hasty.


Thank you so much for your input!

Thanks for the detailed response! It's reassuring to see that this is an in-process and open-to-review system. I've actually not seen that sort of Meteor Trampoline play, but it sounds interesting (if still rather finicky, due to how short a time the trampoline stays around).

That said, I feel like it's worth being cautious about banning things simply over face-value complaints. Of course, as a TO, we each have a right (and to a large degree, expectation) to appease our players. But one dangerous part of any ban mentality is that it can quickly start spinning out of control. It can seem easy to ban a move for being lame yet not ban characters who play thus by design (i.e. Sonic), but if there's something I've noticed about a lot of the Ban Customs crowd, it's that if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. It's important to be very specific about why things are being banned (or should be banned). Without that sort of process and having, essentially, a definite list of "qualifications" for ban-worthiness, you could end up with ruleset scenarios where a lot of things are assumed without proper analysis (such as the suicide clause, stage lists, walkoffs, etc).

 

[Electric91]

Actually, i'll work onto putting that up, that way the views aren't skewed. I'm relooking over the list, and i'm having more and more suggestions by our pool of players.

Lightweight palutena would be a threat to early kill setups..

I took out dire hydrant and replaced the trip sappling with villagers extreme balloon.

For Donkey Kong, i'll wait and see a little bit. You're completely right about the bans though, just a simple word would turn this in and out.

I think that the bans should limit themselves to just a couple of moves, and mostly sets to avoid ridiculous match ups. That said, there is still a long way to go.

The point of this, is to be able to see customs back at a major, Like the title mentions it, i'm also out to find easy ways to transfer customs and making it logistically easier for TO's. I'm one of them and use Customs in our tournaments.

 

[Tito Maas]

I'm against the idea of banning them because the lists of proposed banned customs (like the one in OP) start off big and only get bigger. I mean, there's a whole thread on here somewhere that proposes banning every single Up Special custom and still more. And in that thread there are a bunch of people agreeing that yes, they can understand all Up Special customs being banned off rip. That's just absolutely ridiculous.

The idea is to ban a "few" customs but nobody ever wants to ban a "few" customs. Has anyone ever stopped to think about the customs viability of these characters who you're proposing bans for without those customs? Donkey King is low tiered in standard. Take away Kong Cyclone and whatever else y'all are so afraid of, and does he get any better in customs? Or is he just straight up worse? Because for as many good and great customs there are, there are customs that are totally useless or niche.

Take away Kong Cyclone, so now you have Chopper Clone which is only good for recovery. That's cool, but only serves a single utility. Take away Lightning Punch or whatever and that leaves you with Whirlwind punch, which is niche at best. I'm not a DK user, but why would I with the remaining customs I have to choose from?

There's the idea of single bans for customs moves in matches but that idea hurts characters who have only like, one good custom like Ness and Pit.

I feel like the whole idea would have more merit if any of the characters with these proposed banned customs made it very far at EVO.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm against the idea of banning them because the lists of proposed banned customs (like the one in OP) start off big and only get bigger. I mean, there's a whole thread on here somewhere that proposes banning every single Up Special custom and still more. And in that thread there are a bunch of people agreeing that yes, they can understand all Up Special customs being banned off rip. That's just absolutely ridiculous.

The idea is to ban a "few" customs but nobody ever wants to ban a "few" customs. Has anyone ever stopped to think about the customs viability of these characters who you're proposing bans for without those customs? Donkey King is low tiered in standard. Take away Kong Cyclone and whatever else y'all are so afraid of, and does he get any better in customs? Or is he just straight up worse? Because for as many good and great customs there are, there are customs that are totally useless or niche.

Take away Kong Cyclone, so now you have Chopper Clone which is only good for recovery. That's cool, but only serves a single utility. Take away Lightning Punch or whatever and that leaves you with Whirlwind punch, which is niche at best. I'm not a DK user, but why would I with the remaining customs I have to choose from?

There's the idea of single bans for customs moves in matches but that idea hurts characters who have only like, one good custom like Ness and Pit.

I feel like the whole idea would have more merit if any of the characters with these proposed banned customs made it very far at EVO.

On the brighter side for Ness and Pit, they're solid characters without customs. But any sort of drafting/banning phase that isn't related to stages gets shot down pretty hard on "but mah mains and practice time" grounds.

 

[san.]

If there's some agreed ban criteria, then I'd be able to agree. How good must a move be for it to be banworthy? Does this also include default specials? Right now, too much is left up in the air that discussion wouldn't be helpful vs. the whims of the TO since they'd be able to take action purely on community feedback.

 

[Electric91]

If there's some agreed ban criteria, then I'd be able to agree. How good must a move be for it to be banworthy? Does this also include default specials? Right now, too much is left up in the air that discussion wouldn't be helpful vs. the whims of the TO since they'd be able to take action purely on community feedback.

This'll certainly include Default Specials. I think it's necessary. I've actually left a lot in the air to see how this idea would be perceived by the community. I'll put up criterias tomorrow as an edit. Thanks for your feedback, I'll work on it in a different way now that I know there is support for this.

 

[clydeaker]

Banning certain custom moves but not others?
Although I prefer customs on, I would rather ban all customs and Mii Fighters rather than only allowing certain custom moves.
Are these custom moves Meta Knight bad? NO THEY ARE NOT! Shiek is still a better character with or without these customs. It would make more sense to ban Shiek than to ban half of the custom moves. Or how about we ban shieks 1111 set. all of her default customs are banned. Is that fair? No it is not!

Sorry, I don't mean to be so negative, but this really grinds my gears. I would love to ban Little Mac, Olimar, and sonic because of how annoying they can be sometimes, but that doesn't mean they are ban worthy.

I feel like the smash community has become trigger happy with bans because of how big of an issue Meta Knight was in Brawl. Meta knight was legal for a long time before he was widely banned, Smash 4 hasn't even been out for a year and people are already banning character and their moves. Baning Mii Fighters and customs hardly solves anything. In fact I would say it creates even more problems.

 

[Illuminose]

Penetrating Needles are worse than normal needles in most matchups (excluding Rosalina, Villager, certain projectile characters that normal needles aren't that useful against as far as long range is concerned, and maybe if you feel like they're getting too cosy in their shield against needles). The range of normal needles largely outweighs most of the benefits associated with Penetrating Needles in most cases. Honestly find it pretty amusing that people consider them problematic.

 

[Jrzfine]

For me, the only customs that should be considered banworthy are those that are almost universally considered to be annoying and/or unfun for the opponent and audience.

For instance, I dont think there's one person who isn't a villager main who can look you in the eye and tell you that they fully enjoy playing Trip Tree + Extreme Balloons + Multihit Lloyd in tournaments. Customs like these I believe should be the only ones considered for the banlist. In this specific example I would choose to ban only one or two of the three, since it's really the combo that makes it so annoying, rather than any of them on their own.

Customs like Dong Cyclone should be spared unless a vast majority (More than 3/4) of people agree to ban it because of how much it would hurt the character to not have it in a customs environment.

TL;DR
Custom bans are a very sensitive topic that must be used as sparingly as possible. Remember, every custom banned drastically worsens many peoples' mains, which should be avoided whenever it's not absolutely necessary to ensure a healthy meta. Focus on the universally hated customs, then consider the characters' viability without it. Can the character survive in tournament using the other variants? Does everyone hate fighting/watching it? If so, THEN you can decide to ban it.

 

[hiramsthoughts]

This is pretty much what I think, we're already banning customs by not having them among the legal sets, all we need to do is vote for the ones we don't think are fair and revote and rebuild the legal sets without them.

 

[Raijinken]

This is pretty much what I think, we're already banning customs by not having them among the legal sets, all we need to do is vote for the ones we don't think are fair and revote and rebuild the legal sets without them.

Of course, with the sets in general needing revision, there's a lot of power in the hands of Ampharos and friends to do this with or without everyone else's input.

 

[Infinite901]

Banned Moves:

DONKEY KONG:

• Neutral: Storm Punch
• Up Special: Kong Cyclone

VILLAGER:

• Up Special: Extreme Balloon Trip

PAC-MAN:

• Up Special: Meteor Trampoline

[...]

Moves that I still haven't checked or are up for debate:


Mario:

• Side Special: Gust Cape

LUIGI:

• Down Special: Clothesline Cyclone

ROSALINA & LUMA:

• Down Special: Guardian Luma

BOWSER JR.:

• Side Special: Grounding Dash
• Down Special: Big Mechakoopa

DIDDY KONG:

• Down Special: Shocking Banana Peel

LINK:

• Down Special: Meteor Bomb

SHEIK:

• Neutral: Penetrating Needles

TOON LINK:

• Up Special: Flying Spin Attack
• Down Special: Short Fused Bomb

SAMUS:

• Side Special: Relentless Missile
• Down Special: Slip Bomb

ZERO SUIT SAMUS:

• Neutral: Spreading Shot

DUCK HUNT:

• Up Special: Super Duck Jump

META KNIGHT:

• Neutral: Entangling Tornado

FOX:

• Neutral: Impact Blaster AND Charge Blaster
• Side Special: Wolf Flash
• Up Special: Twisting Fox

Fox's sets are more up to debate than his actual moves on our end.

LUCARIO:

• Neutral: Snaring Aura Sphere

R.O.B:

• Down Special: Fire Gyro

VILLAGER:

• Down Special: Timber Counter

OLIMAR:

• Down Special: Dizzy Whistle

DR. MARIO:

• Side Special: Breezy Sheets

SONIC:

• Hammer Spin Dash

Mii's are only subjections to size restraints.

Anyones input over these are the best. They're still in for check because either i didn't unlock them, or didn't go through them yet. Fox is maybe the most looked upon for us right now.

Alright, no offense, but this ban list is really bad. Like, really, REALLY bad. I'm super pro-customs, and I do think some need to get axed, but this list is awful.
-Meteor Trampoline is not broken. Not even CLOSE. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard complain about it.
-Storm Punch should be put on the "considered" list. Personally I don't think even Kong Cyclone is that bad, but I can get why that would get banned. Storm Punch, not so much. It's pretty much just FLUDD with a hitbox up close.
-Not sure what about Clothesline Cyclone, Meteor Trampoline, Grounding Dash, Giant Mechakoopa,
Flying Spin Attack, Slip Bomb, Relentless Missile, Shocking Banana peel, Spreading Shot, Super Duck Jump, Entangling Tornado, Impact Blaster, Charge Blaster, Fire Gyro or Dizzy Whistle would make anyone even consider banning them.
-And yet you lack on this list Heavy Skull Bash (one of the few customs I think should be banned) Thunder Jolt, Meteor Quick Attack, Paralyzing Falcon Kick, Pisces, Rocketbarrel Attack, Lightweight, Shooting Star Bit, Speeding Bike, Luma Warp, Gravity Grenade, Dark Fists, Warlock Blade, Wizard's Dropkick, Zigzag Shot, Dragon Rush, Leaping inhale, Pushy Loid, Jumbo Hoop, Weighted Header, Hyper Monado Arts, Power Vision, Doc's Clothesline Tornado, Double Spring, Gravitational Charge, or Helicopter Kick. Wow, that's a lot. Now, I'm not complaining about ANY of these (except HSB) but these customs are ALL complained about WAY more often than some of the ones on your list (read: at all)
-Guardian Luma gets rid of a very good move against projectile users, so it's use is purely matchup-based. Don't see much wrong with it other that slightly increased camping on an already campy fighter.
-Meteor Bomb makes using a bomb to restore your recovery impossible.
-Short Fused Bomb is just a quick projectile, much like a Fireball. Nothing wrong there.
-Penetrating Needles have much less range.
-Snaring Aura Sphere is only a problem in doubles.

Now, if I were to make a ban list, it would look like this:
-Extreme Balloon Trip
-Heavy Skull Bash
-Snaring Aura Sphere in doubles
-Default Bucket in doubles
-[The infinite Lightweight glitch]

With the maybes being:
-Timber Counter
-Kong Cyclone
-Thunder Jolt

That's it. Anything else, in my eyes, is fair game.

 

[Raijinken]

Alright, no offense, but this ban list is really bad. Like, really, REALLY bad. I'm super pro-customs, and I do think some need to get axed, but this list is awful.
-Meteor Trampoline is not broken. Not even CLOSE. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard complain about it.
-Storm Punch should be put on the "considered" list. Personally I don't think even Kong Cyclone is that bad, but I can get why that would get banned. Storm Punch, not so much. It's pretty much just FLUDD with a hitbox up close.
-Not sure what about Clothesline Cyclone, Meteor Trampoline, Grounding Dash, Giant Mechakoopa,
Flying Spin Attack, Slip Bomb, Relentless Missile, Shocking Banana peel, Spreading Shot, Super Duck Jump, Entangling Tornado, Impact Blaster, Charge Blaster, Fire Gyro or Dizzy Whistle would make anyone even consider banning them.
-And yet you lack on this list Heavy Skull Bash (one of the few customs I think should be banned) Thunder Jolt, Meteor Quick Attack, Paralyzing Falcon Kick, Pisces, Rocketbarrel Attack, Lightweight, Shooting Star Bit, Speeding Bike, Luma Warp, Gravity Grenade, Dark Fists, Warlock Blade, Wizard's Dropkick, Zigzag Shot, Dragon Rush, Leaping inhale, Pushy Loid, Jumbo Hoop, Weighted Header, Hyper Monado Arts, Power Vision, Doc's Clothesline Tornado, Double Spring, Gravitational Charge, or Helicopter Kick. Wow, that's a lot. Now, I'm not complaining about ANY of these (except HSB) but these customs are ALL complained about WAY more often than some of the ones on your list (read: at all)
-Guardian Luma gets rid of a very good move against projectile users, so it's use is purely matchup-based. Don't see much wrong with it other that slightly increased camping on an already campy fighter.
-Meteor Bomb makes using a bomb to restore your recovery impossible.
-Short Fused Bomb is just a quick projectile, much like a Fireball. Nothing wrong there.
-Penetrating Needles have much less range.
-Snaring Aura Sphere is only a problem in doubles.

Now, if I were to make a ban list, it would look like this:
-Extreme Balloon Trip
-Heavy Skull Bash
-Snaring Aura Sphere in doubles
-Default Bucket in doubles
-[The infinite Lightweight glitch]

With the maybes being:
-Timber Counter
-Kong Cyclone
-Thunder Jolt

That's it. Anything else, in my eyes, is fair game.

Curious, would you still ban HSB/Thunder Jolt even though Thunder Jolt can no longer chain pseudo-indefinitely?

 

[Electric91]

Alright, no offense, but this ban list is really bad. Like, really, REALLY bad. I'm super pro-customs, and I do think some need to get axed, but this list is awful.
-Meteor Trampoline is not broken. Not even CLOSE. In fact, you are the first person I have ever heard complain about it.
-Storm Punch should be put on the "considered" list. Personally I don't think even Kong Cyclone is that bad, but I can get why that would get banned. Storm Punch, not so much. It's pretty much just FLUDD with a hitbox up close.
-Not sure what about Clothesline Cyclone, Meteor Trampoline, Grounding Dash, Giant Mechakoopa,
Flying Spin Attack, Slip Bomb, Relentless Missile, Shocking Banana peel, Spreading Shot, Super Duck Jump, Entangling Tornado, Impact Blaster, Charge Blaster, Fire Gyro or Dizzy Whistle would make anyone even consider banning them.
-And yet you lack on this list Heavy Skull Bash (one of the few customs I think should be banned) Thunder Jolt, Meteor Quick Attack, Paralyzing Falcon Kick, Pisces, Rocketbarrel Attack, Lightweight, Shooting Star Bit, Speeding Bike, Luma Warp, Gravity Grenade, Dark Fists, Warlock Blade, Wizard's Dropkick, Zigzag Shot, Dragon Rush, Leaping inhale, Pushy Loid, Jumbo Hoop, Weighted Header, Hyper Monado Arts, Power Vision, Doc's Clothesline Tornado, Double Spring, Gravitational Charge, or Helicopter Kick. Wow, that's a lot. Now, I'm not complaining about ANY of these (except HSB) but these customs are ALL complained about WAY more often than some of the ones on your list (read: at all)
-Guardian Luma gets rid of a very good move against projectile users, so it's use is purely matchup-based. Don't see much wrong with it other that slightly increased camping on an already campy fighter.
-Meteor Bomb makes using a bomb to restore your recovery impossible.
-Short Fused Bomb is just a quick projectile, much like a Fireball. Nothing wrong there.
-Penetrating Needles have much less range.
-Snaring Aura Sphere is only a problem in doubles.

Now, if I were to make a ban list, it would look like this:
-Extreme Balloon Trip
-Heavy Skull Bash
-Snaring Aura Sphere in doubles
-Default Bucket in doubles
-[The infinite Lightweight glitch]

With the maybes being:
-Timber Counter
-Kong Cyclone
-Thunder Jolt

That's it. Anything else, in my eyes, is fair game.

Thank you for your input, while doubles is another subject, I've not gone there yet;

The one on the list that are on the "to check", aren't considered to be ban worthy, they just mean, i haven't personally tried them. I specifically said it in my introduction. This doesn't mean they are considered for banning, it only means i've yet to try them as they caught my eye. I quote, specifically:

To check doesn't mean that they're being looked upon for banning, it only means we have to test the move, and see if it is overpowered, or actually benefits the character in a slight way and is actually GOOD for the character.

I'll remind you that I don't have them ALL unlocked.

Some of the points you made are very good, and this isn't my personal ban list, it's for the whole community. You're the X person who's saying that Storm punch is actually just a FLUDD. I can agree on that, i'll have it removed.

I'm not a robot though, so you'll have to see the updates a bit delayed. I'll strikethrough some but will do the real updates tomorrow.

Thank you for your great input.

I'd also want to say to others: We should consider removing sets rather than banning some customs. Some of the customs are actually good, but in set in pair with others can be just too amplified.

It's true that Heavy Skull Bash should be up there for consideration. My bad on that.

 

[clydeaker]

Captain Falcon - "The Face of Smash." Arguably the most widely played character in all of Smash 4. He is often considered one of the best default characters in the roster.

What if we were to ban one of his most iconic moves such as the infamous Falcon Punch or his classic Side Special the Raptor Boost? This is will infuriate thousands of players. Not only is it one of his best default specials. Your messing with the nestalga of players. He's had these moves sense 1998 and 2001. They haven't been ban worthy until now. Although these moves are extremely powerful and arguably more OP than most of the moves you listed to ban. No one will do so because they are part of his default set and they've been around sense the beginning of Smash.

Although banning Captain Falcon might seem crazy, it's just as crazy as banning other custom moves. People play to win and taking the tools they're using to do so forces them to adapt to the next best character. Then that characters moves will seem too OP and will get banned, and another, and another. Where's the cut off line for what we can and can't ban? I would ban half of the legal stages if I could because they favor some characters more than others, but I won't because it's unfair to the rest of the community. This idea of banning customs has gone way too far out of hand. Banning certain custom moves, but not others is ridiculous and unfair to certain characters. Ether ban all custom moves or don't ban any.

 

[Raijinken]

Captain Falcon - "The Face of Smash." Arguably the most widely played character in all of Smash 4. He is often considered one of the best default characters in the roster.

What if we were to ban one of his most iconic moves such as the infamous Falcon Punch or his classic Side Special the Raptor Boost? This is will infuriate thousands of players. Not only is it one of his best default specials. Your messing with the nestalga of players. He's had these moves sense 1998 and 2001. They haven't been ban worthy until now. Although these moves are extremely powerful and arguably more OP than most of the moves you listed to ban. No one will do so because they are part of his default set and they've been around sense the beginning of Smash.

Although banning Captain Falcon might seem crazy, it's just as crazy as banning other custom moves. People play to win and taking the tools they're using to do so forces them to adapt to the next best character. Then that characters moves will seem too OP and will get banned, and another, and another. Where's the cut off line for what we can and can't ban? I would ban half of the legal stages if I could because they favor some characters more than others, but I won't because it's unfair to the rest of the community. This idea of banning customs has gone way too far out of hand. Banning certain custom moves, but not others is ridiculous and unfair to certain characters. Ether ban all custom moves or don't ban any.

Banning Falcon Punch would be reasonable, no matter how silly, if it functioned by default like the powered-up version does in Brawl Minus (aka near-instant with a mini-Smart Bomb at the end). At some point, if you undertake balance as a goal, nostalgia cannot be given preferential treatment.

 

[clydeaker]

Banning Falcon Punch would be reasonable, no matter how silly, if it functioned by default like the powered-up version does in Brawl Minus (aka near-instant with a mini-Smart Bomb at the end). At some point, if you undertake balance as a goal, nostalgia cannot be given preferential treatment.

Good point. I see your a Marth main. what if the community were to ban Marths default side special Dancing Blade or his Counter? They are reasonably over powered and removing them would help "balance" the game. Would you prefer to change your main or would you resort to using Marths other custom moves?

 

[Tito Maas]

Good point. I see your a Marth main. what if the community were to ban Marths default side special Dancing Blade or his Counter? They are reasonably over powered and removing them would help "balance" the game. Would you prefer to change your main or would you resort to using Marths other custom moves?

I don't see how suggesting/hypothesizing banning non-overpowered moves is going to advance your argument. Inequivalent argument from the start.

 

[clydeaker]

I don't see how suggesting/hypothesizing banning non-overpowered moves is going to advance your argument. Inequivalent argument from the start.

Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that...

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm against customs, and banning a few doesn't sway me at all. My problem is that Customs On isn't as balanced as Customs Off, and just short of banning practically all of them and farting out new ones for Zelda and Mewtwo it won't be more balanced.

 

[Tito Maas]

Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that...

I'm not for banning custom moves, I just didn't think that argument could go anywhere, lol.

But I'll say, for example, if Dark Pit's Guiding Bow custom was banned, I'd still use Dark Pit since he's my best character but I would basically be using no customs, which puts me at a disadvantage from the get-go in a customs tournament.

But why should I have to change my main just to play customs? Because the elites banned enough of my character's custom moves to make him not viable in a customs setting? So now I'm at a disadvantage either way; because I'm not using my main, because I'm not using customs, or because I'm forced to use customs that just don't work for my character or simply aren't good.

Maybe the whole idea of customs is that they're not supposed to keep the same tier list as standard. Sheik may be the #1 in standard, but why does DK have to still be D-tier for customs when he has the tools to be much better than that? I mean finally, there's an area where DK can be a viable character. We're taking that away because Sheik might not have the same advantage over him due to the Kong Cyclone? And believe me, I get wrecked by that **** too, but I can see clearly through these threads about banning custom moves how banning Kong Cyclone has to spin out of control (pun) and ban like a hundred moves across a whole bunch of different characters. Ban enough of the good customs and then there will be no point in playing customs because the characters who actually need to use them won't even be able to.

Maybe a compromise could be to limit characters to one custom move at a time. That way characters won't be tricked out like an NBA 2K MyPlayer character, even though that takes an element out of customs that makes the whole ordeal basically standard play anyway.

 

[Raijinken]

Good point. I see your a Marth main. what if the community were to ban Marths default side special Dancing Blade or his Counter? They are reasonably over powered and removing them would help "balance" the game. Would you prefer to change your main or would you resort to using Marths other custom moves?

I'd take Iai Counter over default any day, and I'm the one Marth in the universe who thinks that somewhere, somehow, there is a use for Heavy Blade.

However, I also have an extremely loose definition of "main". If you've (for some reason) been tracking my sig lately, I've hopped from Robin to Shulk to Roy to Marth, and that's not counting longer-ago stints of Pac-Man, Captain Falcon, Ness, and Brawler. As a result, if somehow forcing Marth off his defaults made him worse (he's finally getting towards the good end of mid tier), and I couldn't figure out the new style (on a character who, comparatively, is under-reliant on specials to begin with), then I'd just change to Roy. I do not value my "time investment" so much as to oppose an honestly-intended and properly-thought-out move towards actual balance.

I'm against customs, and banning a few doesn't sway me at all. My problem is that Customs On isn't as balanced as Customs Off, and just short of banning practically all of them and farting out new ones for Zelda and Mewtwo it won't be more balanced.

What makes On less balanced than Off? Sonic and Villager? Or is this about how Zelda with a handful of decent options still has relatively garbage normals, which are a significantly larger part of most of the roster's playstyles?

If all "average characters" get an increase and Zelda doesn't, that doesn't make the game less-balanced, it makes Zelda an outlier. If high-tiers were the only characters to benefit, though, I'd totally agree. But normals are so huge a part of every character that it takes a special few (i.e. Sonic, Villager) with already good normals to gain disproportionate power with customs.

 

[Electric91]

Alright, now i'm home, and can definitely can get back to work on that. Yay! So, after all the posts of yesterday, I may have done some bloops. Actually, the best way to start off is with a clean slate and that each one of us brings up the dabatable moves / sets on board, and THEN we add them up there.

Thoughts?

Right now, there's HSB from Pikachu up to debate.

 

[FSLink]

I really think results need to play into this, and customs really hasn't been around long enough to show any consistent results.

I don't believe in just banning customs because people find them "jank" or "lame" or whatever but I do see that people dislike a lot of say, Villager's zoning gameplan with customs. I also don't believe that we should attempt to "balance" the customs game through banning customs without letting the meta have time to develop counter strategies (unless it's extremely obvious it leads to mindless and/or degenerate strategies and play like Order Tackle + Amplifying Reflector in doubles before it was patched). It's okay to have a meta that's unbalanced as long as the viable strategies are found to be fulfilling with options. For example, see Marvel vs Capcom 2.

Only one I was definitely for banning was HSB + Thunder Wave on the same set, and Thunder Wave seems to be fixed now to not cause an infinite. I do think Trip Sapling + Extreme Balloon Trip and Kong Cyclone could be suspect but as of now, people seem to be able to have figured out tech against these.

So if we do have to have a ban list, I really only propose Trip Sapling + Extreme Balloon Trip on the same set. Kong Cyclone I think people just need to better utilize the counter strategies available out there, and to stop picking Battlefield against DK.

 

[LancerStaff]

IWhat makes On less balanced than Off? Sonic and Villager? Or is this about how Zelda with a handful of decent options still has relatively garbage normals, which are a significantly larger part of most of the roster's playstyles?

If all "average characters" get an increase and Zelda doesn't, that doesn't make the game less-balanced, it makes Zelda an outlier. If high-tiers were the only characters to benefit, though, I'd totally agree. But normals are so huge a part of every character that it takes a special few (i.e. Sonic, Villager) with already good normals to gain disproportionate power with customs.

Zelda and Mewtwo makes two, and debatably Lucas makes three. There's more characters knocked out of the viable range then there are characters that replace them. and probably are what I can think of off the top of my head, and then to "replace" then we get a stronger and who were already good. I can't think of anybody who makes it to where they actually matter in customs besides maybe .

 

[Raijinken]

Zelda and Mewtwo makes two, and debatably Lucas makes three. There's more characters knocked out of the viable range then there are characters that replace them. and probably are what I can think of off the top of my head, and then to "replace" then we get a stronger and who were already good. I can't think of anybody who makes it to where they actually matter in customs besides maybe .

,, and by many accounts. I'm also still not convinced Diddy gets harmed by a customs environment when he still has one of the best specials in the game. Greninja, too, can get some situational mileage out of some of his shuriken and counter customs. I personally haven't seen enough Lucas in any meta to have an opinion on him. There are a lot of characters who are better, even if they still don't "matter", and I'm of the opinion that they won't get any better any time soon if people don't feel like they have access to the "closest to viable" form of their character.

 

[19_]

One thing I would like to mention is that it would be nicer if we had wii u power saves. This does not only solve the logistics issue but also allows more freedom for sets instead of just locking them down to 10 sets only.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One thing I would like to mention is that it would be nicer if we had wii u power saves. This does not only solve the logistics issue but also allows more freedom for sets instead of just locking them down to 10 sets only.

Wasn't the 10 sets only thing due to the sheer scale of EVO? In smaller environments there should be fewer issues surrounding ad hoc set creation.

 

[LancerStaff]

,, and by many accounts. I'm also still not convinced Diddy gets harmed by a customs environment when he still has one of the best specials in the game. Greninja, too, can get some situational mileage out of some of his shuriken and counter customs. I personally haven't seen enough Lucas in any meta to have an opinion on him. There are a lot of characters who are better, even if they still don't "matter", and I'm of the opinion that they won't get any better any time soon if people don't feel like they have access to the "closest to viable" form of their character.

Mii Brawler is just a walking ball of jank in customs, and Miis get their customs anyway with customs set to off. That's a different argument.

Palutena and WFT though, I don't think they're real strong contenders with customs. Leagues better then without, but enough to seriously compete? I'm not thinking so.

The thing is that the top tiers also get a boost, and that leaves bigger gaps in between viable and not viable.

 

[Raijinken]

Mii Brawler is just a walking ball of jank in customs, and Miis get their customs anyway with customs set to off. That's a different argument.

Palutena and WFT though, I don't think they're real strong contenders with customs. Leagues better then without, but enough to seriously compete? I'm not thinking so.

The thing is that the top tiers also get a boost, and that leaves bigger gaps in between viable and not viable.

Rosalina specifically excluded, it seems that no top-tier prefers any custom aside from niche scenarios (i.e. piercing needles for Castle Siege).
Even the high-tiers are pretty limited in their customs benefit. Mario and Wario have some nice ones, but most of the rest are niche or downgrades.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina specifically excluded, it seems that no top-tier prefers any custom aside from niche scenarios (i.e. piercing needles for Castle Siege).
Even the high-tiers are pretty limited in their customs benefit. Mario and Wario have some nice ones, but most of the rest are niche or downgrades.

Related, Rosalina may be falling from grace a bit. Current discussion in the character thread is trending towards her being mostly carried by Dabuz, with a real placement in top 10 but not top 5. Still a good character, with some polarizing matchups (Ness says hi), but not on the same level as, say, Sheik or ZSS.

</armchair>

 

[Elixar]

Bowser: No bans, no glaringly obvious need for a ban on any customs. Really benefits from side b. Bowser bomb customs are balanced by having reduced knockback

Jr: No bans, half of his customs are terrible anyway, the only decent one IMO is impatient mecha koopa which functions like Tink's Short Fuse Bomb

Capt. Falcon: No bans, situational customs, good luck geting his footstool para kick infinite. Really only works on heavies, with no DI and expert timing. Key point: NO DI

Charizard: No bans, but can I just say how **** Sinking Skull and Fire Fang are?

Dark Pit: No bans, Pittoo's customs are mostly unimpressive, guiding arrow allows you to get a more versatile version of pit's normal arrow, whilst retaining your electroshock arm and differing physical aspects from pit. Striking Orbitars are a good 'get off me' tool but aren't remotely broken. All of the other customs, especially electrocut arm are situational to the point of useless.

Diddy: No bans, Shocking and Battering Banana aren't particularly more useful than Default.

DK: I'm no longer in favour of banning Storm Punch. It DOES make some matchups impossible, like Doc and Little Mac, but that's all part of the counterpick I guess.
- Ban Proposal: Kong Cyclone - The move completely dominates most matchups with its super armour, janky windboxes and ability to ledge cancel. Extensive research has made people learn how to deal with it, but as it stands, I feel that if people want to use the move, they should be forced to lose certain other moves to discourage the usage of it.
Proposal: Lightning Punch is a weaker and much less effective giant punch. Forcing Lightning Punch onto all Kong Cyclone sets could potentially discourage usage of Kong Cyclone (Perhaps coupled with another less than stellar custom?)

Doc: No bans - Breezy Sheet got flagged but as potential but I want to put that to rest: Doc's moveset as it stands is incredibly unsafe. Even things that should work like Dthrow -> Up air are actually unsafe as the up air leaves doc open enough that he can get punished mid combo. His lack of options is broadened out by the "get off me" windbox of the wind sheet. The windbox slows approaches enough to give him a slight chance at defending, and the cape sweetspot acts like a horizontal spiking move, giving a strong distance between the two like a meteor strike or spike would do. Bring back Mega Capsule that ****'s dope <3

DHD: No bans, Zigzag can is ridiculous when it works... but that's when it works... which it doesn't unless you're dunnobro lmao. -Somebody else check Super Duck Jump for me plz.

Falco: No bans, the bird is fine as is. Of note, Burst Blaster makes falco's back and up throw kill far later, so uh... never use it. Accele-Reflector I've found to have an incraesed (but not gaurunteed :C) tendency to trip opponents, which is pretty neat.

Fox: Potential - Wolf Flash Haven't tested to see if blasters affect fox's throws, but iirc Charge Blaster didn't turn it into a falco style kill throw which is kinda sad. Fire Fox customs are fine, I personally feel Twisting Fox goes further than normal, but I'm wrong apparently. It also can't be used into the floor, if it does you'll skid along the ground in the direction you were facing, you won't ledge snap and you WILL SD, so it's fine. Free Wolf. I've seen issue with Wolf Flash, but the sweetspot is just below fox. The move's aggressive use comes at low percent where it lines up with downthrow for early kills if you have poor vertical recovery. After that, there are NO SETUPS into spiking with Wolf Flash, and the upper hitbox is weak.
- Doubles Ban: Amplifying Reflector banned with Olimar for pikmin abuse

Ganon: No bans, this man needs buffs, not bans.

Greninja: No bans, the only notable one is the one that draws you in for up smash, but, Sheik has it, so why not Greninja?

Ike: No bans, we like Ike, but some of his customs are just bad. Tempest isn't as good as you might be lead to believe. the windbox is stronger at the centre, so it only really leads to kills when its sufficiently charged at the ledge and you miss your sweetspot.

Jigs: No bans, someone mentioned the sing customs, but I guess they were joking? Leaping Rest is dope but doesn't need a ban at all.

King D3: No bans, Taste Test and the other gordo are good mixups, but nothing crazy.

Kirby: No bans, Jumping Inhale DESTROYS heavies and characters with poor horizontal recovery by chaining into itself. If this move catches your jump, expect the next one to catch your stock.

Link: No bans - Denying meteor bomb a ban due to you losing a huge aspect of Link's recovery, being bomb jumping. Link still gets meteored with the move, so unless you're mashing Up B with his whirlwind up special, you'll be losing ground with each jump. Additionally, the move's spiking properties depend solely on the direction the bomb was thrown: Foward gives an alright spike. Up has a much weakened spike that basically just brings the opponent down to Link's level. Down and Z drop are the only directions that result in a spike capable of killing at mid-high percentages.

Little Mac: No bans, no problems here.

Lucario: No bans - Snaring Aura Sphere has come under scrutiny from some players, but after spending a huge deal of time on the Lucario boards (being a Lucario secondary myself), they feel that the move itself is not worth using. It's slow, which makes it harder to reflect, but easier to be absorbed/pocketed, but harder to be used against them. The windup is huge when fired and the move is slower to charge. The aura sphere at max aura IS larger than default, but the amount of time it takes to release it means that Lucario is now MUCH more limited in its usage of b reverse AS into Jump Cancelled Up Smash.
- In doubles I'd say ban this move with Villager, or force villager to use the pocket that doesn't provide a multiplier. Without a multiplier, the move isn't nearly as broken as it is on default pocket. So rather than banning this move in doubles. I'd say limit pocket to Pocket Plus (3).

Marth/Lucina: No bans - she's fine at the moment, heavy dancing blade can net some quick kills, but it's slow and you lose the normal aspects of dancing blade. Adding a tipper onto these did not give any drastic changes for me, hence I'm lumping them together, because neither seemed ban worthy.

Luigi: Quick Missile - Up for debate. The move aids Luigi's recovery massively. It's ridiculous. It's said to be weaker, yes, but a misfire will still kill from around 115%. Misfires are also nonsensical with this move. Misfiring onstage from the edge can take you over to off the edge on the other side of battlefield. Mashing provides a good set of small, but useful burst for recovery, and the misfire is almost a garunteed recovery. Otherwise his customs seem fine. Clothsline tornado is terrible. Terrible. There's no reason to use this move, let alone ban it.

Mario: Gust Cape - Up for debate. Similarly to doc, the move has great "get off me" properties and works as a great kill move. The problem I have with this move on Mario over Doc is that Mario's speed and general solidarity give him no reason to see the cape upgrade to cover his flaws. The move is fundamentaly similar, but I feel the buffed cape provides him with too many options. In practically every situation offstage you would go for a cape, you can forward air instead. On stage, normal cape should also suffice. Mario also has the added benefit of having fludd or high pressure fludd to do his windbox nonsense anyway, so why give him two powerful gimping options on an already solid character. This move's ability to stall in the air helps his recovery further, and seeing as this move on THIS CHARACTER is a already solid enough in default, I'm opposed to giving Mario the buffed cape.

Mega Man: No bans, I personally love seeing Mega Man's setups, Danger Wrap usually comes as a finisher for juggles or off of Mega Man's considerably not stellar grab game, it's launching and kill potential off the top does require the opponent to be put in the right place in order to use, and the move is otherwise very difficult to hit with.

Meta Knight: No bans, Entangling tornado is nowhere near as good as it seems on paper. Nothing else is banworthy either, most if not all MK will be running 1111

Miis (This aught to be fun.)

Brawler: N specials - No bans, to each their own, they all benefit different playstyles so it's down to the user, as is the case for pretty much every mii user.
Side Specials: Onslaught selective ban (See below), no bans otherwise.
Up Sepcials: Helicopter Kick cannot be used in the same set as Onslaught - Helicopter kick, we all know kills early, but its priority isn't great and its vertical recovery is laughable. Coupled with Flip Kick it'll keep you from dying off the side, but once you get to a certain point below the stage, if you can't wall jump, it's GG. In terms of killing, the reason I'd ban Onslaught from being on the same set is Onslaught is quick, had decent priority and kills early off the top. It even kills super early off the top in mid air due to the move RISING whilst attacking. Give the user two options, one being a very early kill option with a hard airdodge read should be avoided. (Secondary Brawler)
Down Special: No bans, but if you're not using Flip Kick, you're doing something wrong.

Gunner: No bans, the only one to look at is the Shine, but it's not that good at shine spiking even after shine spiking got buffed a little this patch.

Swordfighter: No bans, the invincibility with the shuriken of light is 1 frame, so good luck ever landing that. The side B all (bar chakram) have great recovery, buuuuut they put you in helpless when you hit shields and the surging slash doesn't let you grab the ledge after you slash, which allow for easy gimps if someone jumps in the way to take the hit. The Up Bs are fine. The Hero Spin only kills early if the last hit hits, which it doesn't... Sakurai, plz fix. Down Bs, The Cape is weak, the counter is solid, and if you want a falcon kick, then be my guest.

MIIS SIZE: Personally I see no reason to place restriction on size. Mii users all really have their own flavours to their playstyles, mixing up customs and sizes. 0/0 is quick and deadly, but sometimes lacks that little bit of range that it needed to get the job done. 25/0 could fix these things, but you lose just a little bit of speed. 100/100 Swordfighter has the strongest counter in the game iirc, second only to (hyper)smash shulk power counter. Depending on YOUR UNIQUE PLAYSTYLE I feel Mii Users should be entightled to play THEIR MII FIGHTER, not an arbitrary Mii Fighter with the same moveset. In terms of appearance, if it's unacceptable, then don't allow it to be imported, that's their fault for testing the waters.

Mr G&W: No bans, the moves aren't broken or terrible, RNG is RNG, you're either Gimz or you don't winz.
- Doubles bans: Ban default bucket for obvious reasons. Forcing Efficient Panic or Overload panic on teams with notorious setups such as Sheik, Samus, Lucario etc would limit bucket strategy to a shadow of its former glory. You could instead force that some characters, such as Sheik be forced to switch their setup move to something else (IE, Sheik be switching to the Vanish with no explosion) to prevent it instead however. As long as the standard bucket and a notrious bucket setup aren't on the same set together, it should be fine.

Ness: No bans, these are all balanced fine IMO, I know how some people feel about PK Thunder's tail so I'll leave that to you guys, you can't ban all 3 of the moves, and the Default has PKT2 which is hard to hit and great to see, so...

Olimar: Hardy Pikmin and Sticky Pikmin throw seems kinda... eh... I'm not sure however, they kinda balance out to normal pikmin, so I'm not sure if this combo is particularly ridiculous.
- Doubles: These don't need to be banned with fox as Fox should have Amplifying reflector banned with Olimar in doubles.

Pac Man: No bans, the fruits are a good mixup for the user, but I don't see a problem with it. Same goes for the pellets, they're not broken. Meteor Trampoline - Red Trampoline put you in helpless anyway as default which means you're dead off stage, so what's the problem here, if anything you get a less satisfying disrespect coupled with a weakened recovery. I also have no problems with dire atm.

Palutena: No bans - honestly, as good as Lightweight is, it's not unbeatable. Palu's grab isn't great, and her jab confirm is slow, you're basically just avoiding grabs whilst it's active and get the kill. She's light as hell with Lightweight, the move is beatable, and gets her killed super early when you land a solid hit.

Peach: Sleepy Toad could be a great kill confirm, but it requires both of you to be on the floor to sleep the opponent, therefore really can only punish smashes and dashes, and Peach to give up her float in order to use it. The bombers are different and interesting, but none of them broken. Veggies and parasol all balanced.

Pikachu: Heavy Skull Bash - up for debate. Often the target of fierce debate, but now that the patch has fixed Jolt's infite into HSB, HSB's potential has been nerfed. It can still score off of a hard read, and I'm against it acting like a fully charged smash attack at point blank with no charge. Still, with Jolt gone, it's back to a hard read a la Ganon move rather than one jolt into many jolts into finisher. Perhaps you could weaken this move by forcing a weaker custom onto it, such as the 3rd Jolt move - Thunder Shock, or the less favourable Distant Thunder special, making Pika mains really weigh up whether HSB is worth it or not. I feel that that may sort out some problems with an overcentrilisation on HSB in pika custom play.

Pit: No bans, Same as Pittoo, The only noteworthy ones are guiding arrow and striking orbitars, maybe quickdash arm, but really, you're not looking at anything other than those two for usage, and they're perfectly fine customs on their own or coupled.

ROB: Slip Gyro - up for debate. It's not impossible to deal with by any means, and is really MU dependent on whether to use it vs Fire Gyro. The move loses its slipping properties once picked up, so you're only looking at one, maybe 2 trips before you're using the gyro as a WEAKER gyro.

Robin: No bans.

RosaLuma: No bans, as scary as luma warp can be, it's doesn't have a hitbox, so luma is vulnerable. Nothing else is remotely ban worthy.

Samus: No bans, I've seen scrutiny for Dense Charge Shot, but DCS is slow, takes longer to charge, has no hitbox when charging, and like ALL of Samus' Charge Shots, can't be charged in the air (or B reversed in my experience). This makes the move linear, and really results in you having to just blast it point blank and hope for the best. It can be left to mess with linear recoveries, which is your best bet, and using DCS removes a great kill setup in the form of forward tilt to Charge Shot, as DCS is too slow to hit from forward tilt, which with normal CS will kill at ~100% once you land the f tilt. Slip bomb is like normal bomb, but meteors, but the bombs are so difficult to hit with that she needs it. The bombs are all also capable of stealing Samus' jump by turning her into a morph ball, which makes it easy to accidentally gimp yourself with ANY of the bombs.

Sheik: No bans, None of her moves are particularly ridiculous by themselves. Sheik is good, but not Brawl MK good, so we don't need to put some of her 'less effective' customs on here. The grenades and needles are down to preference, and so are the bouncing fishes. Pisces will mess with your DI hard and is a phenomenal kill move, killing around 90% when it hits + bad DI, but you lose the infamous bouncing fish as a trade off.
- Doubles: Potentially force "Gale" onto Shiek when coupled with G&W, otherwise you could attempt to weaken her recovery etc with "Abyss" but then you're adding a meteor spike. It kills differently, can't kill above the stage, but is still a meteor spike, which Sheik really doesn't need, she currently has options to kill reliably (as reliably as sheik can) off the top and side, she doesn't need a spike as well.

Shulk: No bans, once Power visio is whiffed, it can't be used for a decent amount of time (rough/exact number of frames or time plz) everything else comes down to preference.

Sonic: No bans, both Hammer and Buring SD are beatable and don't realistically help camping with sonic all that much. Springing Headbutt makes a hard to punish move even harder to punish, but you lose height, which sonic kinda needs. Also makes it so dair offstage isn't as safe as it is with default spring.

Tink: No bans, Flying Spin Attack is silly, yes, but very hard to bomb jump with. It grants armour on the lurch, which causes some bombs to not work unless you learn a new timing for them. I've seen many times people panic with short fuse bomb and forget about their armour, falling in freefall to their death because the armour soaked up the explosion.

Villager: Extreme Balloon Trip - Definate.
I've tested soft banning the EBT and Tripping Seed set with friends and I found that all of the villager players just dropped Tripping seed, deciding to keep to EBT for its safeness, and granting a frame 6 kill option with the Axe. Tripping tree is annoying, yes, but EBT is the real problem behind that set. Even on its own, it allows people to plank reliably due to having manual detonation of the balloons. Even after the patch its still a stupidly powerful move.
- Doubles: Force Pocket Plus onto Villager when coupled with Lucario, Samus or Ness/Lucas to nerf the healing and Pocket Strats.

Wario: No bans, WAH WAH HWAH WAHAHAHAAAA

Wii Fit Trainer: No bans, WFT's Heavy Hoops have some mad priority, but they're vulnerable from above or below if you can wriggle under there. I'd like to see a test on Hoop Hurricane because it sounds interesting on paper, but otherwise WFT's customs are fresh, interesting and unique, but not close to broken.

Yoshi: No bans, Yes, Egg Launch is polarising against poor recoveries, but so is getting stuck in an egg for ages in default. Yoshi doesn't need bans, unless you can ban that dair lol.

Zelda: No bans, Zelda is fine, as much as I hate getting sniped by Farore's Windfall, it can only teleport straight up, and if they miss their sweetspot/don't b-reverse to face the stage, they can be punished hard once the meteor hitbox fades.

ZSS: No bans, Nothing is particularly polarising, the blaster and whip may change depending on MU, but it's not brawl whip, so there's no problems here.

^These are my notes: Discuss.

 

[Infinite901]

Zelda and Mewtwo makes two, and debatably Lucas makes three. There's more characters knocked out of the viable range then there are characters that replace them. and probably are what I can think of off the top of my head, and then to "replace" then we get a stronger and who were already good. I can't think of anybody who makes it to where they actually matter in customs besides maybe .

Zelda and Mewtwo suck anyway so it doesn't exactly matter. i'd say Lucas is good regardless of customs. (after all Ness doesn't really have much with customs either but he's still Top) greninja and Diddy both have some powerful customs and Diddy and Meta Knight are really good regardless. As shown by EVO Top 32, Palutena, WFT, and Charizard all rise into viable level.

 

[19_]

Wasn't the 10 sets only thing due to the sheer scale of EVO? In smaller environments there should be fewer issues surrounding ad hoc set creation.

It was, but I think having 10 sets make more issues mainly because not everyone has a say in what custom sets are chosen (Japanese players had no say what so ever being the biggest example).

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Bowser: No bans, no glaringly obvious need for a ban on any customs. Really benefits from side b. Bowser bomb customs are balanced by having reduced knockback

Jr: No bans, half of his customs are terrible anyway, the only decent one IMO is impatient mecha koopa which functions like Tink's Short Fuse Bomb

Capt. Falcon: No bans, situational customs, good luck geting his footstool para kick infinite. Really only works on heavies, with no DI and expert timing. Key point: NO DI

Charizard: No bans, but can I just say how **** Sinking Skull and Fire Fang are?

Dark Pit: No bans, Pittoo's customs are mostly unimpressive, guiding arrow allows you to get a more versatile version of pit's normal arrow, whilst retaining your electroshock arm and differing physical aspects from pit. Striking Orbitars are a good 'get off me' tool but aren't remotely broken. All of the other customs, especially electrocut arm are situational to the point of useless.

Diddy: No bans, Shocking and Battering Banana aren't particularly more useful than Default.

DK: I'm no longer in favour of banning Storm Punch. It DOES make some matchups impossible, like Doc and Little Mac, but that's all part of the counterpick I guess.
- Ban Proposal: Kong Cyclone - The move completely dominates most matchups with its super armour, janky windboxes and ability to ledge cancel. Extensive research has made people learn how to deal with it, but as it stands, I feel that if people want to use the move, they should be forced to lose certain other moves to discourage the usage of it.
Proposal: Lightning Punch is a weaker and much less effective giant punch. Forcing Lightning Punch onto all Kong Cyclone sets could potentially discourage usage of Kong Cyclone (Perhaps coupled with another less than stellar custom?)

Doc: No bans - Breezy Sheet got flagged but as potential but I want to put that to rest: Doc's moveset as it stands is incredibly unsafe. Even things that should work like Dthrow -> Up air are actually unsafe as the up air leaves doc open enough that he can get punished mid combo. His lack of options is broadened out by the "get off me" windbox of the wind sheet. The windbox slows approaches enough to give him a slight chance at defending, and the cape sweetspot acts like a horizontal spiking move, giving a strong distance between the two like a meteor strike or spike would do. Bring back Mega Capsule that ****'s dope <3

DHD: No bans, Zigzag can is ridiculous when it works... but that's when it works... which it doesn't unless you're dunnobro lmao. -Somebody else check Super Duck Jump for me plz.

Falco: No bans, the bird is fine as is. Of note, Burst Blaster makes falco's back and up throw kill far later, so uh... never use it. Accele-Reflector I've found to have an incraesed (but not gaurunteed :C) tendency to trip opponents, which is pretty neat.

Fox: Potential - Wolf Flash Haven't tested to see if blasters affect fox's throws, but iirc Charge Blaster didn't turn it into a falco style kill throw which is kinda sad. Fire Fox customs are fine, I personally feel Twisting Fox goes further than normal, but I'm wrong apparently. It also can't be used into the floor, if it does you'll skid along the ground in the direction you were facing, you won't ledge snap and you WILL SD, so it's fine. Free Wolf. I've seen issue with Wolf Flash, but the sweetspot is just below fox. The move's aggressive use comes at low percent where it lines up with downthrow for early kills if you have poor vertical recovery. After that, there are NO SETUPS into spiking with Wolf Flash, and the upper hitbox is weak.
- Doubles Ban: Amplifying Reflector banned with Olimar for pikmin abuse

Ganon: No bans, this man needs buffs, not bans.

Greninja: No bans, the only notable one is the one that draws you in for up smash, but, Sheik has it, so why not Greninja?

Ike: No bans, we like Ike, but some of his customs are just bad. Tempest isn't as good as you might be lead to believe. the windbox is stronger at the centre, so it only really leads to kills when its sufficiently charged at the ledge and you miss your sweetspot.

Jigs: No bans, someone mentioned the sing customs, but I guess they were joking? Leaping Rest is dope but doesn't need a ban at all.

King D3: No bans, Taste Test and the other gordo are good mixups, but nothing crazy.

Kirby: No bans, Jumping Inhale DESTROYS heavies and characters with poor horizontal recovery by chaining into itself. If this move catches your jump, expect the next one to catch your stock.

Link: No bans - Denying meteor bomb a ban due to you losing a huge aspect of Link's recovery, being bomb jumping. Link still gets meteored with the move, so unless you're mashing Up B with his whirlwind up special, you'll be losing ground with each jump. Additionally, the move's spiking properties depend solely on the direction the bomb was thrown: Foward gives an alright spike. Up has a much weakened spike that basically just brings the opponent down to Link's level. Down and Z drop are the only directions that result in a spike capable of killing at mid-high percentages.

Little Mac: No bans, no problems here.

Lucario: No bans - Snaring Aura Sphere has come under scrutiny from some players, but after spending a huge deal of time on the Lucario boards (being a Lucario secondary myself), they feel that the move itself is not worth using. It's slow, which makes it harder to reflect, but easier to be absorbed/pocketed, but harder to be used against them. The windup is huge when fired and the move is slower to charge. The aura sphere at max aura IS larger than default, but the amount of time it takes to release it means that Lucario is now MUCH more limited in its usage of b reverse AS into Jump Cancelled Up Smash.
- In doubles I'd say ban this move with Villager, or force villager to use the pocket that doesn't provide a multiplier. Without a multiplier, the move isn't nearly as broken as it is on default pocket. So rather than banning this move in doubles. I'd say limit pocket to Pocket Plus (3).

Marth/Lucina: No bans - she's fine at the moment, heavy dancing blade can net some quick kills, but it's slow and you lose the normal aspects of dancing blade. Adding a tipper onto these did not give any drastic changes for me, hence I'm lumping them together, because neither seemed ban worthy.

Luigi: Quick Missile - Up for debate. The move aids Luigi's recovery massively. It's ridiculous. It's said to be weaker, yes, but a misfire will still kill from around 115%. Misfires are also nonsensical with this move. Misfiring onstage from the edge can take you over to off the edge on the other side of battlefield. Mashing provides a good set of small, but useful burst for recovery, and the misfire is almost a garunteed recovery. Otherwise his customs seem fine. Clothsline tornado is terrible. Terrible. There's no reason to use this move, let alone ban it.

Mario: Gust Cape - Up for debate. Similarly to doc, the move has great "get off me" properties and works as a great kill move. The problem I have with this move on Mario over Doc is that Mario's speed and general solidarity give him no reason to see the cape upgrade to cover his flaws. The move is fundamentaly similar, but I feel the buffed cape provides him with too many options. In practically every situation offstage you would go for a cape, you can forward air instead. On stage, normal cape should also suffice. Mario also has the added benefit of having fludd or high pressure fludd to do his windbox nonsense anyway, so why give him two powerful gimping options on an already solid character. This move's ability to stall in the air helps his recovery further, and seeing as this move on THIS CHARACTER is a already solid enough in default, I'm opposed to giving Mario the buffed cape.

Mega Man: No bans, I personally love seeing Mega Man's setups, Danger Wrap usually comes as a finisher for juggles or off of Mega Man's considerably not stellar grab game, it's launching and kill potential off the top does require the opponent to be put in the right place in order to use, and the move is otherwise very difficult to hit with.

Meta Knight: No bans, Entangling tornado is nowhere near as good as it seems on paper. Nothing else is banworthy either, most if not all MK will be running 1111

Miis (This aught to be fun.)

Brawler: N specials - No bans, to each their own, they all benefit different playstyles so it's down to the user, as is the case for pretty much every mii user.
Side Specials: Onslaught selective ban (See below), no bans otherwise.
Up Sepcials: Helicopter Kick cannot be used in the same set as Onslaught - Helicopter kick, we all know kills early, but its priority isn't great and its vertical recovery is laughable. Coupled with Flip Kick it'll keep you from dying off the side, but once you get to a certain point below the stage, if you can't wall jump, it's GG. In terms of killing, the reason I'd ban Onslaught from being on the same set is Onslaught is quick, had decent priority and kills early off the top. It even kills super early off the top in mid air due to the move RISING whilst attacking. Give the user two options, one being a very early kill option with a hard airdodge read should be avoided. (Secondary Brawler)
Down Special: No bans, but if you're not using Flip Kick, you're doing something wrong.

Gunner: No bans, the only one to look at is the Shine, but it's not that good at shine spiking even after shine spiking got buffed a little this patch.

Swordfighter: No bans, the invincibility with the shuriken of light is 1 frame, so good luck ever landing that. The side B all (bar chakram) have great recovery, buuuuut they put you in helpless when you hit shields and the surging slash doesn't let you grab the ledge after you slash, which allow for easy gimps if someone jumps in the way to take the hit. The Up Bs are fine. The Hero Spin only kills early if the last hit hits, which it doesn't... Sakurai, plz fix. Down Bs, The Cape is weak, the counter is solid, and if you want a falcon kick, then be my guest.

MIIS SIZE: Personally I see no reason to place restriction on size. Mii users all really have their own flavours to their playstyles, mixing up customs and sizes. 0/0 is quick and deadly, but sometimes lacks that little bit of range that it needed to get the job done. 25/0 could fix these things, but you lose just a little bit of speed. 100/100 Swordfighter has the strongest counter in the game iirc, second only to (hyper)smash shulk power counter. Depending on YOUR UNIQUE PLAYSTYLE I feel Mii Users should be entightled to play THEIR MII FIGHTER, not an arbitrary Mii Fighter with the same moveset. In terms of appearance, if it's unacceptable, then don't allow it to be imported, that's their fault for testing the waters.

Mr G&W: No bans, the moves aren't broken or terrible, RNG is RNG, you're either Gimz or you don't winz.
- Doubles bans: Ban default bucket for obvious reasons. Forcing Efficient Panic or Overload panic on teams with notorious setups such as Sheik, Samus, Lucario etc would limit bucket strategy to a shadow of its former glory. You could instead force that some characters, such as Sheik be forced to switch their setup move to something else (IE, Sheik be switching to the Vanish with no explosion) to prevent it instead however. As long as the standard bucket and a notrious bucket setup aren't on the same set together, it should be fine.

Ness: No bans, these are all balanced fine IMO, I know how some people feel about PK Thunder's tail so I'll leave that to you guys, you can't ban all 3 of the moves, and the Default has PKT2 which is hard to hit and great to see, so...

Olimar: Hardy Pikmin and Sticky Pikmin throw seems kinda... eh... I'm not sure however, they kinda balance out to normal pikmin, so I'm not sure if this combo is particularly ridiculous.
- Doubles: These don't need to be banned with fox as Fox should have Amplifying reflector banned with Olimar in doubles.

Pac Man: No bans, the fruits are a good mixup for the user, but I don't see a problem with it. Same goes for the pellets, they're not broken. Meteor Trampoline - Red Trampoline put you in helpless anyway as default which means you're dead off stage, so what's the problem here, if anything you get a less satisfying disrespect coupled with a weakened recovery. I also have no problems with dire atm.

Palutena: No bans - honestly, as good as Lightweight is, it's not unbeatable. Palu's grab isn't great, and her jab confirm is slow, you're basically just avoiding grabs whilst it's active and get the kill. She's light as hell with Lightweight, the move is beatable, and gets her killed super early when you land a solid hit.

Peach: Sleepy Toad could be a great kill confirm, but it requires both of you to be on the floor to sleep the opponent, therefore really can only punish smashes and dashes, and Peach to give up her float in order to use it. The bombers are different and interesting, but none of them broken. Veggies and parasol all balanced.

Pikachu: Heavy Skull Bash - up for debate. Often the target of fierce debate, but now that the patch has fixed Jolt's infite into HSB, HSB's potential has been nerfed. It can still score off of a hard read, and I'm against it acting like a fully charged smash attack at point blank with no charge. Still, with Jolt gone, it's back to a hard read a la Ganon move rather than one jolt into many jolts into finisher. Perhaps you could weaken this move by forcing a weaker custom onto it, such as the 3rd Jolt move - Thunder Shock, or the less favourable Distant Thunder special, making Pika mains really weigh up whether HSB is worth it or not. I feel that that may sort out some problems with an overcentrilisation on HSB in pika custom play.

Pit: No bans, Same as Pittoo, The only noteworthy ones are guiding arrow and striking orbitars, maybe quickdash arm, but really, you're not looking at anything other than those two for usage, and they're perfectly fine customs on their own or coupled.

ROB: Slip Gyro - up for debate. It's not impossible to deal with by any means, and is really MU dependent on whether to use it vs Fire Gyro. The move loses its slipping properties once picked up, so you're only looking at one, maybe 2 trips before you're using the gyro as a WEAKER gyro.

Robin: No bans.

RosaLuma: No bans, as scary as luma warp can be, it's doesn't have a hitbox, so luma is vulnerable. Nothing else is remotely ban worthy.

Samus: No bans, I've seen scrutiny for Dense Charge Shot, but DCS is slow, takes longer to charge, has no hitbox when charging, and like ALL of Samus' Charge Shots, can't be charged in the air (or B reversed in my experience). This makes the move linear, and really results in you having to just blast it point blank and hope for the best. It can be left to mess with linear recoveries, which is your best bet, and using DCS removes a great kill setup in the form of forward tilt to Charge Shot, as DCS is too slow to hit from forward tilt, which with normal CS will kill at ~100% once you land the f tilt. Slip bomb is like normal bomb, but meteors, but the bombs are so difficult to hit with that she needs it. The bombs are all also capable of stealing Samus' jump by turning her into a morph ball, which makes it easy to accidentally gimp yourself with ANY of the bombs.

Sheik: No bans, None of her moves are particularly ridiculous by themselves. Sheik is good, but not Brawl MK good, so we don't need to put some of her 'less effective' customs on here. The grenades and needles are down to preference, and so are the bouncing fishes. Pisces will mess with your DI hard and is a phenomenal kill move, killing around 90% when it hits + bad DI, but you lose the infamous bouncing fish as a trade off.
- Doubles: Potentially force "Gale" onto Shiek when coupled with G&W, otherwise you could attempt to weaken her recovery etc with "Abyss" but then you're adding a meteor spike. It kills differently, can't kill above the stage, but is still a meteor spike, which Sheik really doesn't need, she currently has options to kill reliably (as reliably as sheik can) off the top and side, she doesn't need a spike as well.

Shulk: No bans, once Power visio is whiffed, it can't be used for a decent amount of time (rough/exact number of frames or time plz) everything else comes down to preference.

Sonic: No bans, both Hammer and Buring SD are beatable and don't realistically help camping with sonic all that much. Springing Headbutt makes a hard to punish move even harder to punish, but you lose height, which sonic kinda needs. Also makes it so dair offstage isn't as safe as it is with default spring.

Tink: No bans, Flying Spin Attack is silly, yes, but very hard to bomb jump with. It grants armour on the lurch, which causes some bombs to not work unless you learn a new timing for them. I've seen many times people panic with short fuse bomb and forget about their armour, falling in freefall to their death because the armour soaked up the explosion.

Villager: Extreme Balloon Trip - Definate.
I've tested soft banning the EBT and Tripping Seed set with friends and I found that all of the villager players just dropped Tripping seed, deciding to keep to EBT for its safeness, and granting a frame 6 kill option with the Axe. Tripping tree is annoying, yes, but EBT is the real problem behind that set. Even on its own, it allows people to plank reliably due to having manual detonation of the balloons. Even after the patch its still a stupidly powerful move.
- Doubles: Force Pocket Plus onto Villager when coupled with Lucario, Samus or Ness/Lucas to nerf the healing and Pocket Strats.

Wario: No bans, WAH WAH HWAH WAHAHAHAAAA

Wii Fit Trainer: No bans, WFT's Heavy Hoops have some mad priority, but they're vulnerable from above or below if you can wriggle under there. I'd like to see a test on Hoop Hurricane because it sounds interesting on paper, but otherwise WFT's customs are fresh, interesting and unique, but not close to broken.

Yoshi: No bans, Yes, Egg Launch is polarising against poor recoveries, but so is getting stuck in an egg for ages in default. Yoshi doesn't need bans, unless you can ban that dair lol.

Zelda: No bans, Zelda is fine, as much as I hate getting sniped by Farore's Windfall, it can only teleport straight up, and if they miss their sweetspot/don't b-reverse to face the stage, they can be punished hard once the meteor hitbox fades.

ZSS: No bans, Nothing is particularly polarising, the blaster and whip may change depending on MU, but it's not brawl whip, so there's no problems here.

^These are my notes: Discuss.

Onslaught usually doesn't kill from the ground until like 155%, not sure what the problem is. Most of the time I'd rather stick to a sliding USmash. It's a good punish for rolls, yes, but so's a Burning Dropkick if you're smart about it. Aerial Onslaught kills earlier thanks to the ascent, but it's still in the 80%+ range and it's quite hard to land in the air (aerial Onslaught gets less distance on the dash than grounded Onslaught, or at least it did last patch). Helicopter Kick is powerful though and is one of my favourite moves.

Aerial Hero's Spin isn't a kill move. The power is in 2nd stage grounded Hero's Spin. A 0/0 Mii Swordfighter can dash and slide along the ground while getting that little bit of charge, then release at point blank. Takes a solid read or a stalled Chakram to pull off, but it kills pretty early. On lightweights like Sheik and Pikachu, it gets kills from 70%.

 

[Illuminose]

Rosalina specifically excluded, it seems that no top-tier prefers any custom aside from niche scenarios (i.e. piercing needles for Castle Siege).
Even the high-tiers are pretty limited in their customs benefit. Mario and Wario have some nice ones, but most of the rest are niche or downgrades.

Pikachu (TWave/HSB)? Fox (Twisting Fox/Falco laser)? Luigi (Quick Missile)? Diddy Kong (Rocketbarrel Attack)? Villager (Timber Counter/Extreme Balloon Trip/Pushy Lloid)? Sonic (Hammer Spin Dash/Double Spring)?