Crouch canceling

[kupo15]

Ok, I hated this mechanic for a very long time until just recently while I was studying ganon's dsmash. Then I realized how great it was at making the game better.

One problem I see is that DI is too easy and one problem in particular would be DIing down while on the floor to tech the ground a few feet from where you where hit. This is more common on Yoshi's Island but nonetheless happens on flat ground either by accident or on purpose. I think that being able to do this is too easy and it hurts the game which is why I propose we add crouch canceling. But first, let me break down CC because it acts differently:

Low percents acts like heavy armor
Midish high percents insta knocks you down on the floor

I am not interested in adding the heavy armor, but interested in the insta knockdown part. Here is an example. As I was testing ganon's dsmash to make it like melee, I noticed how easily techable the first hit was. When I went to melee to try and tech it I couldn't at first which didn't add up. But in actuality, you CAN tech ganon's first hit of the dsmash in melee but CCing is what made it difficult.

Because CCing insta knocks you down, you can not tech this. This means that for the dsmash, you have to DI down the moment you are hit by the kick and the move is so fast that if you miss it by a little, you can't tech because you lost your DI window and if you do it too early, you CC it causing you to slide along the floor. In brawl, you can simply take the hit while crouching which allows you to DI before the hit and tech with ease. So as you can see, teching the first hit of ganon's dsmash is very powerful and being able to destroy it easily with a tech is bad instead of the player being highly skilled to deserve the reward. This doesn't only happen with this move, it has happened with the gentlemen and ganon's jab as well as other moves.

CCing was also in 64 and melee so keeping it consistent by having some form of CC would be a plus especially since it makes this powerful form of teching not so noob proof which as we know, we have changed a lot of these mechanics do to this problem like powershielding.

 

[CT Chia]

I disagree with adding this to the game. What you said isn't exactly how it works in Melee, and for this you especially being keen on the knocking you down when you get hit is not good at all.

I'm still a little confused at how you exactly plan to implement this. Overall though, people were more indifferent about CC'ing in melee, as simply holding down ruined many combos that would work other wise, and it practically makes jabs useless for direct setups.

There will be too much confusion on trying to implement it properly, and it can ruin a lot of the balancing we have done to other moves. I would say avoid this idea.

 

[Alopex]

Did you test the Ganon Dsmash are varying tech windows to rule out the possibility that the ease of teching isn't due to the (in my opinion rather large) tech window we currently use?

Furthermore, did you test it with the vBrawl teching system to see if it only occurs due to our teching code?

We verify all the things available to us in order to properly understand a phenomenon before we think of changes to it.

 

[kupo15]

I disagree with adding this to the game. What you said isn't exactly how it works in Melee, and for this you especially being keen on the knocking you down when you get hit is not good at all.

I'm still a little confused at how you exactly plan to implement this. Overall though, people were more indifferent about CC'ing in melee, as simply holding down ruined many combos that would work other wise, and it practically makes jabs useless for direct setups.

There will be too much confusion on trying to implement it properly, and it can ruin a lot of the balancing we have done to other moves. I would say avoid this idea.

If you don't like the fact of the insta knockdown, then I suggest disabling DI during the crouch so this doesn't happen. It may have ruined combos but the alternative right now is not much better seeing how in melee, the move sends you away like it was supposed to do. I didn't like CC stomps though.

Teching a few feet from where you got hit on certain moves is punishable and crippling to the move especially since teching doesn't carry momentum (which it should) I'm not sure if you can just remove downward DI but something has to be done.

Did you test the Ganon Dsmash are varying tech windows to rule out the possibility that the ease of teching isn't due to the (in my opinion rather large) tech window we currently use?

Furthermore, did you test it with the vBrawl teching system to see if it only occurs due to our teching code?

We verify all the things available to us in order to properly understand a phenomenon before we think of changes to it.

This has happened to me in vbrawl as well (mainly ganon jab, zelda's dsmash, ganon ftilt) and I don't see why that should a concern since we don't use that teching system. Melee's teching window was fairly forgiving yet it was really hard to tech the move. I am positive CCing was the reason why it has hard in melee because you had to be precise about when you DI, not just hold it down way early in advanced.

So maybe disabling DI in some way during the crouch will be brawl's version of CC. It makes DIing down to tech low attacks harder without nerfing stomps. So the decision would be to attempt to DI down and tech at the risk of doing it too early and having no DI on the next hit which doesn't ruin that combo. Or you can take the easy way out and DI in another direction.