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Crouch Canceling Must DI

kirbykid

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Texas
Crouch Canceling is one of the most used and worst techniques in the game. And by extension, so is DI (directional influence = the ability for the player to control or influence the angle or direction that they fly away from attacks).
<p align="center"><a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/pikachu_070606b-l.jpg" title="pikachu_070606b-l.jpg"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/pikachu_070606b-l.jpg" alt="pikachu_070606b-l.jpg" /></a></p>
Naturally, this is a sensitive and tricky issue because without DI, the game would be a mess of predictability and combos. If you don’t believe me, try going back and playing smash64 again. Just seeing some of the combos in that game that are possible during competitive play remind me of Marvel vs Capcom 2. In other words, after the first successful hit, it’s just about over for you. However, as useful as DIing is, it’s a little too easy to execute. Do we really want a strategy like, “hold down = stay alive” to remain in Brawl? If not, what are the alternatives?
<!--more-->In Melee, each move has their own “tolerances” or ranges that the player can DI into. Math’s counter cannot be DIed. And on the other extreme, all of Kirby’s smash attacks can be DIed making them practically useless. I often smash my opponents at over 150%, and they’re able to DI even my forward smash straight up and survive without a problem. Does it make sense to be able to DI a forward smash straight up? In this case, the range of DI should be less extreme. DIing kirby’s attacks so extremely turns his already weak attacks into useless ones.

But DIing into the air isn’t the biggest problem. Crouch canceling, or DIing into the ground, has become increasingly more dangerous for the attacker, the character that successfully landed the attack. Most attacks in most situations can be countered just by holding down to reduce the knock back. I think this is a little too easy. Shouldn’t it take more precise timing to counter the wide variety of moves that Melee offers?
Don’t get me wrong. I like the idea of crouch canceling. Throwing the force of an attack into ground to prevent from flying away is fine. But when a light weight like Kirby can crouch cancel a clean hit at 130% and stay on the stage, something is wrong.

Perhaps the threshold needs to be lowered. We all know that 0% is the best time to “take a hit-give a hit.” We hardly expect a target to sail away from an attack at 0%. So, after a target is over 10-30% (depending on their weight) they shouldn’t be able to crouch cancel so effectively and so easily. This is one way to fix crouch canceling. Also, if the stun the character would have had flying through the air was transfered into being stunned while sliding on the stage, that would help balance things. As it is now, a Samus can crouch cancel a move even at high percentages, and almost immediately down smash the attacker.

Brawl has added new crouch and crouch-walk animations. I wonder if this means they’re changing how character interact with the ground. Perhaps, being able to crouch-walk eliminates our ability to crouch cancel.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
First post oh yeah. You know Ive probably been giving u a hard time so I wanna say Im sry. U probably know more about smash than I do. I like reading your stories they give us something to do over the weekend when theres no updates on the SmashDojo. Good Job.
 

Rockin

Juggies <3
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Oct 16, 2006
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Bronx, New York
Okay, so…are you saying that the DI and Couch canceling should match the mass and weight of a character themselves (Ex: Peach is a floaty character, therefore her couch canceling is easier to send flying back)
 
S

Salmon of Doubt

Guest
First I would like to say that I am very, very impressed by all of your blog entires, kirbykid. They are eloquent and offer tons of information, much of which is taken by your own perspective on this game and on various rumors. Since you seem to have such vast knowledge of Super Smash in all its forms, it seems likely that your thinking of the game is probably equal to that of the developers, which assures me that I’m not wasting any time reading your opinions.
I myself am a lover of Smash ever since the N64 days. But this post is a perfect example of what bothers me about the game: you seem to know too much about it, studied its mechanics too long, and I would hazard to say that you have consequently studied the fun out of it. I am a casual style player, I play with friends during weekends, occasionally with the video game club at my school, and I can beat most of them. But I absolutely use none of the techniques that you describe, and am not nearly as precise at manuevers and all of the terms that you use. I just play it like it was meant to be played, without looking too deeply into code, as it sometimes seems like you do. I have looked up some “professional” matches on youetube as well, it it looks like the most boring game on the ‘Cube when watching these masters go at it. Each of their moves it caculated to the point of perfection it seems, and they attack each other with a strategy I could never imagine doing, blocking move after move and speeding up recovery times frame by frame. To me though, it really looks like a crappy way to play. I believe taking advantage of single frames the developers placed in to give the characters animations is bordering on absurd. Now don’t get me wrong here, I am also impressed that this game was able to hold up even at these levels of scrutiny, and am impressed at the time the gamers must have spent to really get these moves to the point of making them reflexes, and being able to improvise on the fly. But, by god, if this is what every sport has come to in this day and age, I don’t understand how anyone starts off playing it. It is just impossible for me to imagine obtaining any enjoyment out of a game that is played under these conditions, be it baseball or soccer or Super Smash. Just play it to enjoy it, you don’t need to go to these measures to win. I think in some areas, such as in cetain carreers obviously, this is necessary. But when it comes to things originally invented to provide a break from those monotomous quests for perfection, I am disheartened. It really should be about getting into the game and playing it then way it was imagined, not looking past all of the things mapped directly to buttons in order to win. Timed shielding is one thing that makes sense; you are becoming better at one technique that was meant to exist. But when you start wavedashing around and the character starts to looks like it does inhuman (inpokemon, inanimal) things, I think the game starts to lose the level of enjoyment it was meant to have. I am not just a party gamer either. I am competative, obviously care about the game enough to be aware of these advanced tricks and read websites such as this, but please hear my plea:

Don’t ruin brawl in the way I feel melee was ruined, looking past what the developers had in mind and creating an entirely different, cold, precise beast.

Not to say that I was directly affected, but I feel that when I run into someone who is for me unbeatable by these aforementioed techniques, the fun will disappear. Especially when (if) brawl decides to go online, there will be so many of you out there that the rest of us who are in it for the enjoyment will be hindered and embarassed to the point of stopping playing. Which would be sad, since the game now seems to have so much promise. Remember what snaking did to mario kart DS? I feel it’s the same relative concept.

Again, awesome site, fantastic posts, and I’m so excited for brawl that I just might crap my pants when they announce the release date.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
Wow. That was a mouthfull salmon of doubt but I kinda agree. If u play the game that much to learn crazy techniques that make u unbeatable I think u need to put down the controller and go play a sport. I also agree in the fact that people are gonna get tired of losing and eventually never fight online again. As Salmon of Doubt said “play the game for fun”. Those are some words of true knowledge.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
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Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
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Master Makoku:
I never mind ramming heads and bumping shoulders with people. I encourage all questions and challenges. As long as you’re not upset by anything that I say, then it’s all a welcomed process of learning. Thanks for reading.

Rockin:
That’s exactly what I’m saying. The way things are in melee, it’s almost perfect. I know what I’m saying is pretty nit-picking. But I felt that I would do us some good to bring it up anyway.

Salmon of Doubt:
Thanks for the kind words. I am trying to become a game developer (or something like that) so I’ve been trying very hard to understand games on all their many levels. It is generally the responsibility of the developers to craft their games in a way that they can be enjoyed by the most number of people. This includes highly intelligent people (mathematicians, scientists, statisticians) and people who just want to unwind and smash some of their friends around (everyone at some point or anther). This may seem nearly impossible until you realize that, despite how different we are, we’re a lot alike.

You mentioned that I might know too much about the game. Well, personally, along with being a writer, I’m also a musician, artist, programmer, and a scientist. It would be safe to say that a lot of things appeal to my sense of entertainment and enjoyment. After all, I can lose my self in a scientific journal that would put a normal person to sleep. So a person like me is always looking and thinking in terms of data and how that data relates to each other. Therefore it is impossible for me to “study the fun out of it.” Of course, this is just me. I would never condone forcing others to think of smash like I do, because I know everyone wouldn’t enjoy it.

You mentioned how Smash is “meant to be played.” I believe this is impossible to determine. Even if you asked the developers of the game, each person might have a different interpretation of how the game is meant to be played. The only think we could say is probably that we were meant to have fun with it. How we have fun, is completely up to us. Though I don’t technically look at any of the code, I know what you’re talking about. Keep in mind, I love computers and games and programming. Thinking and looking at the game on this level is what someone like me enjoys completely.

It’s too bad that you were bored watching some of those high level matches on youtube. But to that end, I must say this. Knowledge is power. The more knowledge you have, the more you’ll begin to see of the world. If you’ve ever played a sport, it makes watching that sport that much more enjoyable. It’s the same with smash. If you’re out of the “know” you may not understand all the inter-workings that makes some videos such shining examples of what it is to play smash.

I know that counting frames may seem absurd to you, but clearly this level of detailed information questing, is for some people and not for all. Are you the type of person who isn’t satisfied with knowing half of an answer? Are you the kind of person who sees something strange and wonders why it happens? That’s the kind of person I am. And the wondering never stops. This is why I’m a scientist at heart. If you still think it’s crazy, then how about this example. Boot up smash and pick Kirby. If you look closely, you’ll see that Kirby has a slight swelling action due to his breathing. This is a level of animation detail that really brings the game to life. And there are some strategies that I have that depending on knowing and manipulating the timing of his breathing to execute. Sound crazy? That’s because it is crazy. And it’s also exhilarating to understand and pull off. Just knowing that there are people who are counting actual breaths in the game (much in the same way you would do in a real life sport) brings the game to life for me.

You’re comparison to real life sports is a bit off. Real life is vastly more complex than any video game. If you want to talk about calculations, Aristotle and others have been picking apart real life, digging out numbers and formulas just to understand the world better. The best part is, those guys were dealing with the same conditions we live in today. Knowing that a soccer ball is effected by the wind, grass and kick is complex. Because the human body is also vastly complex, real life never ceases to amazing me. Real life. Real sports. Or Real good video games like smash.

The best part about real life is, you don’t have to think or appreciate it on this complex level to be a part of it. No matter what kind of person you are, its still complex whether you want to acknowledge it, or participate in it. This way, we’re all in the same boat. But, harkening back to my inspiration knowledge quotes, the more you know, the more you can enjoy anything. This is a universal quality of living. And it always provides new levels of enjoyment.


Ultimately everyone is different. You can’t tell anyone how to live their life or how to have fun playing their video games. So ultimately you can only do what you want for yourself and your own enjoyment. Likewise, you can only expect other to do the same. If not wavesliding makes you happy, then you have to respect those who do to make themselves happy. That’s just the kind of world we live in. I think nothing less of the smasher who is absolutely terrible, than I do of Ken or Isai. Smash to me is respecting everyone’s style of play, even if it means some people shouldn’t play each other.

You called some levels of advanced play cold and precise. If you understood the game on that level, you would know that it’s not very precise at all. As much control as we think we have over the game (by taking out items and levels) we still can’t control some of the random crazy things that happen in the game. And this is what makes Smash so wonderful. This is also what made it last for so many years. I invite you to look at some of my matches on youtube. Whenever I play in tournaments, I always draw crowds because of how much I get into the game. People can tell how much I love smash melee when I cheer and scream and shout all in good spirits. My play style is as playful as it gets. I play Kirby after all. He is arguably the worst character in the game, but I just can’t stand playing anyone else. If you wondered where the spirit of smash is on the highest level of play, just follow my progress. You’ll get some laughs for sure.

The fun very well may disappear when you play a highly technical player. Unfortunately, your enjoyment is not their responsibility, or the game’s responsibility. Some people just don’t mesh in real life or in a game. The best thing to do is not play them. Find the group of people you enjoy playing with and don’t worry about the rest. Smash is too big for there to be just one kind of player, unless it’s a respectful one.

Snaking? Mario Kart DS? I invented snaking with Mario Kart DS. Just kidding. I was one of the forerunners for using the technique online though. Don’t blame the player for snaking. Blame the game makers. Like I said, it would do you good to find a group of non snakers and forget about the rest.

I hope I cleared up some issues without stepping on anybody’s toes. Feel free to ask any questions.

Thanks again.
 
S

Salmon of Doubt

Guest
Wow, thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail. Even though you were rather condescending, and indirectly (maybe not purposely) calling me an idiot, I can see how you value my opinion in the way in which you answered. Thanks.

I also can see your point, as I did before writing my comment. Anything, on any level, performed by any person can have different levels of depth depending on how much you get into it, your personality, your motives, ect. Super Smash is just one of those things that I cannot see as anything more than a fun diversion: if I took it more seriously, then possibly I would go through the various advanced training videos online and train to become better at those techniques, and enjoy the game just as much, but at a different level of complexity. Conversly, I could stay where I am, the crappy player that I am, and enjoy it there with other people who have the same perspective on it. Currently what I enjoy the most right now about the game is during those rare moments when I am in the perfect position, and spike my opponent off the side at just the right angle as Falco (the only character that I can, or will, play). I find it amazing that anyone could develop such a complex game that appeals to so many different people, which strangely enough wasn’t nintendo’s main initiative until relatively recently with the launch of the DS.

I also feel as if you were a bit preachy in your response. Trust me, I am not a simple minded n00b at life, at don’t need to be told how much more complex real life is than video games,. I actually play soccer, with about the same frame of mind that I play smash. In both, without trying, I have become better by acting on instinct and muscle memory, if you will, rather than consciously developing strategies. Other things in life, such as school work and music, have been my primary focus, where I can take your point from. But you seem to be a wildly intelligent and creative individual, if what you said is correct. I am amazed at how you can have so many talents. I am actually just graduating high school, and am about to enter an elite college. I don’t think, however, that I could win a ‘comment battle’ about life, the universe, and smash. You seem to outshine me in every way. But I would just like to go out asking you not to be condescending, as I attempted not to be as well. It’s not that I thought any lesser of you because you invested time in something I don’t find important. Quite the contrary, actually. I can appreciate the game as much as any other form of enjoyment, and the fact that you apply your ‘real life’ skills to it is even more amazing. And it’s not that I found watching the recorded pro games boring, it’s that I imagined playing as they do. I could see all the L cancelling and mini jumps and whatever else you call the special techniques. But since I don’t use them, or play like that, it is hard for me to visualize utilizing them in a precise way (or as you say it, imprecise) or having fun doing it.
The gaming world would be lucky to have a you as a game programmer or developer. I am actually surprised nintendo did not come to you for suggestions about Brawl (or did they?).
Finally, I can see how my philosophy about things like this is quite flawed. If no one in history took things to the very edges of insanity and put all their energy and brain power into it, we would not scientifically, artisically, socailly be the advanced race we are at this time. But certain people need to concentrate only on a few things, like you said. I’ll leave the snaking to you, while I go dig insanely deep into some other hobby. It is, after all, what makes a person great. But again, you make it sound as if you are saying to a mentally challenged person, “yeah, that’s okay, you just be content with knowing how turn a door knob. I’ll be over here doing physics equations.” I guess I should blame the unified field theory intead of game developers, huh?

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Seriously, I’m not being sarcastic. Maybe I’ll play you online when brawl comes out…
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
I have to apologize upfront for sounding condescending. I’ve been working on making my responses appropriate. This time, I had a little bit of an issue because I don’t know you or where you come from. So I made sure to include everything, even things you obviously already know, so that I wouldn’t leave anything out. Also, I try to take the teaching approach and tell you things you already know in the event that someone who doesn’t know anything might learn from our discourse.

Believe it or not, I have a lot of experience in listening and communicating with people. I had a feeling you were a high school senior, and that you were very respectful and understanding of all the topics you brought up. Believe me, I’ve been there. I’m 20, starting my Junior year at SMU as an English Creative Writing Major. I love words, and their use. I could tell a lot about you from your response.

On a side note, I tend to believe that Nintendo has had a bug in my house that allows them to steal my ideas. Before the wiimotes features were announced, I was preaching that it would come with a built in speaker. Absolutely no one believe me. We know how that one turned out.

If you have any online DS games we should play sometime. Currently I’m hooked on Planet Puzzle league and Pokemon DS.
If not, it’ll look like we’ll have to wait for Brawl.

Thanks for the re-response. You know where to find me if need be.
 
L

Lava

Guest
^^Wow, …it’s almost touching. (to both of you) Sorry, ha. No, but that was some good stuff. There’s no need to elaborate on such already elaborate posts, but… yeah, some of us (me) just find it most fulfilling to better our strategy and technique to the maximum our mind and body will let us. Most of us will never learn Kung-Fu or a Jeet Kun Do, but to a certain extent, playing this game and mastering it to high levels gives a similar satisfaction. When you take the community of allies and rivals into account, it is one of the most rewarding experiences in any sport or game. Well, just piping in with that… Peace.
 
S

Salmon of Doubt

Guest
No problem, man. I currently am taking a break from DS and playing an online RTS (age of empires 3 on mac) which is quite fun even though it isn’t developed by nintendo. Hard to believe, huh? I’m thinking about getting that yugioh championship 2007 game, but I’m not sure. I used to play the card game in middle school, and never could find enough people to play against (going to the tournaments at dream wizards was disturbing and why i stopped playing). I was considering getting it just to play online, because I always had fun with it.

What do you think about the new mario strikers game coming out next month? Will it be worth it, even if just for the online mode? I never played the original on the GCN.

Thanks again for being so chill. Keep up the good work, and I think I’ll go watch some games you played in smash on youtube.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
I played the GCN Strikers for a little bit. Then I got the chance to play someone who really knew what they were doing. The GCN version was deep in a way that reminded me of Melee.

I plan on getting Striker Charged. I know the gameplay will be even better, and with a fleshed out single player mode and online support, how can you go wrong?

I’m waiting for the day when they put a version of the pokemon card game into a video game with online support. Card games forever.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
This may be a little late but I think you’ll be perfect for a game designer KirbyKid. Heck you might be the one who makes a fourth Smash Bros. U also make me feel stupid. :)
 
R

Rupe

Guest
I always think it’s awesome to find people who can have intelligent conversations about games and are also involved with the creation of them.

KirbyKid:
It’s great that you’re getting into game dev; I’ve seen a few really interesting things come out of the Guildhall.
I had the opportunity to talk with an student a few months back and play his game, seemed like the Guildhall had a nice curriculum going.

Salmon of Doubt:
You mentioned an “elite college” in your second comment, can you tell us what it is? And are you also interested in development?
 
T

The Inker

Guest
Wow. Lotta big posts in here.

More to the point, both of you are right. Technical gameplay is good for some, but not all. Same for casual play. For every technical guy you find playing online, you’ll also find a casual guy. Don’t worry.

(Also, I can beat snakers without snaking.)
 
M

monkey fecies

Guest
whats this friend code im hearing about? do you nrrd to know someone to play online against them?
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
The Inker said he could beat snakers without snaking and I accepted his challenge.

But if you want to play me on DS I have

Mario Kart
Prime Hunters
Pokemon
Planet Puzzle League
 
M

monkey fecies

Guest
i found a really funny comic about smash bros, go to www.deviantart.com/deviation/57622812/
to see it
 
T

The Inker

Guest
Umm, that wasn’t really a challenge. I actually haven’t played Mario Kart DS in months. It was mostly groundless bragging. I didn’t mean it difinitively so much as a way of saying I’ve done it a few times.
 
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