Crouch cancel questions

[reverie2]

Against samus/doctor mario who like to CC into down-smash/down-tilt for samus or down-smash for doctor mario, we generally want to dair shine them. If we dair a crouching samus/doctor mario and immediately l-cancel it and shine, is it guaranteed that they cannot down-smash/downtilt out? I heard it might be possible for them to downsmash/downtilt out if I start the dair too high but i don't know if that's true. I'm not too great at L-cancelling so it's hard for me to test

Should I fast fall my dair against a CC'er? That gives them more frames to SDI out, but if they don't SDI out, does my shine still hit?

Also does waveshine-> followup work against CC or can they downsmash out. Are there any other moves fox should use against characters who CC?



Also, does anyone have a ballpark estimate when nair starts knocking them off the ground when they CC? Does anyone know what factors affect whether or not an attack knocks them up? Is it just percent damage you do with your attack or are there variables like weight , etc

 

[Kayso]

samus's d smash hits as early as frame 6. fox's dair hitstun is 6 frames but cc reduces that to half. so if fox l cancels and shines then the d smash and shine will clink. im not an expert on ccing but im pretty sure dair shine is guaranteed against someone who is ccing because fox's dairs is a multihit move. If you believe your opponent is bad at smash di then you wont need to ff your dair when they are ccing unless if you dair to early in ur short hop. although I recommend fastfalling cuz ffing fox's dair is much safer.

I have no idea about the nair percents, but if im up to it i might test that at home later

 

[1MachGO]

You cannot CC a move that hits downward. Fox's dair hitboxes have a spiking trajectory so holding down would have no effect on the amount of hitstun.

Dair shine is a true combo barring they don't SDI out of it.

 

[tauKhan]

You cannot CC a move that hits downward. Fox's dair hitboxes have a spiking trajectory so holding down would have no effect on the amount of hitstun.

While the hitstun can't be ASDI down land cancelled, crouching still reduces the kb (and therefore hitstun) and hitlag of the first hit by 1/3. Consecutive hits will hit while the opponent is in hitstun, not crouch, so it only matters on single hit dair. According to rough estimates, samus can probably crouch -> shield/spot dodge/upb against single hit dair. It's a very tight scenario though, and some roundings and staleness might change the outcome.

 

[reverie2]

While the hitstun can't be ASDI down land cancelled, crouching still reduces the kb (and therefore hitstun) and hitlag of the first hit by 1/3. Consecutive hits will hit while the opponent is in hitstun, not crouch, so it only matters on single hit dair. According to rough estimates, samus can probably crouch -> shield/spot dodge/upb against single hit dair. It's a very tight scenario though, and some roundings and staleness might change the outcome.

So the very first dair hitbox that touches the enemy (can be the 2nd 3rd or later dair hitbox) can be CC'ed because their KB is reduced. Afterwards, the enemy is in hitstun and cannot CC the remaining hitboxes of dair because you can't CC in hitstun. Is that all correct?

When you say single hit dair did you mean hit with just 1 hitbox and immediately land+l-cancel? Or did you mean just the very first dair hitbox, and that they can potentially shield/spotdodge/upb the remaining dair hitboxes?

Also... dair shining a CC'ing falco is the same as doing it to a CC'ing samus right? We only have to worry about the first hitbox?

 

[tauKhan]

that all correct?

Correct if you change 'CC' into 'crouch'. I wouldn't say that single hit dair can be cc'd, see explanation below.

Spoiler

CCing is combination of several individual game mechanics. ASDI down to impact land is the part of 'CC' that is the most important, since it yields massive frame advantage. When you manage to impact land after a hit with ASDI, your hitstun is canceled, and you become actionable as soon as you would when landing normally (4 frames with most of the cast including fox). Note that ASDI down to impact land has nothing to do with crouching, and can be performed regardless if the kb doesn't knock you down and isn't too weak.

Since spikes like fox dair don't send you into air, they cannot be ASDI impact landed. However the crouch reduction to kb and hitlag still applies universally when you get hit while in crouch, so you can crouch the first hit of the dair. I just don't want to call it ccing because of the huge difference in frame advantage between just crouching and impact landing. For example, crouching a dair hit reduces the stun Samus would receive by about 8(?) frames in total, while when Samus crouch + ASDI lands a fox nair, she will cut her inactionable period usually by around 30 frames.

Also... dair shining a CC'ing falco is the same as doing it to a CC'ing samus right? We only have to worry about the first hitbox?

Falco receives 2 frames more stun from dair than samus, and has that scary 1 frame move, but otherwise yes.