Critique against Marth Please

[Ledge_g2]

I have been having alot of trouble against Marth lately, and got knocked out of winners brackets the first game of my last tournament from one , it frustrated me a fair bit and threw my game off for the rest of the day. heres some vids of me playing marth.

The match from my last tourney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaXCIvM425Y

Some friendlies against a marth a few days before
(this is after i pressured him a bit in a few friendlies before so his spacing is off alot, and he was winning in the games before.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0scLA4YZFBQ

What mindset should i have when fighting a Marth?
and im a technical thinker so you can be as technical as you want in criticizing my olimar XD.

and as you could probably tell i was getting a bit frustrated towards the end and making bad judgements lol.

Thanks for any help .

 

[Llumys]

Was this played on WiFi? 'Cause I know a Dekar who lives in New Mexico. It could just be the recording, though.

Anyway, I'd rather not critique laggy matches, but...

Don't roll so much. It's generally a bad option, especially against Marth. Anyway, when you were returning to the stage from the air, you should've utilized WAC more often, because your air dodges were getting far too predictable. I also saw a lot of times when you missed a usmash when a fsmash would've been totally appropriate. I suggest learning how to SH whistle to get around Marth's spaced fairs, and improve your spacing so you don't get caught in the dancing blade.

tl;dr: Don't roll. Pivot grab more and be smarter with your smashes and recovery.

 

[Ledge_g2]

ok thanks Llumys, but yeah this isnt on wifi.

I used to not roll against marth untill i realized that his range is like nearly asmuch as Olimars. so i thought the best idea would be to stay close so its harder to tipper. ill learn not to roll again then XD. what should i do instead of roll to get inside or on the other side of a marth?

 

[Llumys]

Olimar has no walk or run, so he can only move by DAC pivot grabs.

Try doing that.

Seriously, though. You don't want to get close to Marth. You should just stand your ground and wait for an opening. You can suggest Marth for the next match-up discussion if you want.

If you want to get behind him, though, try timing your pivot grabs to go under him, I guess.

 

[Ledge_g2]

<3 Llumys.
cool, so my mindset should be more of trying to bait him into pivot grabs instead of pressuring him by getting too close for his liking. ill give that a try next time i play a Marth XD thanks.

also if theres anything else i need to improve on or anything i could have done better (like CP stage) im still all ears XD

 

[DanGR]

It didn't seem like you did anything horribly wrong. I mean, of course you did things wrong, but nothing bad enough to totally hinder your growth as a player. The mistakes I expect normal people to make- I saw a lot of random unshielding against dancing blades, spacing mistakes, bad rolls, etc.

Anyways, as far as strategies and tactics go, the two big things I noticed was your bad rolling habit and shield approaching.

Don't roll towards him when you feel like you don't have any options. Use one of the very few decent options you have instead. For example, you get up off the ground from being hit into the ceiling platforms of LM. He's within dancing blade distance. Don't just automatically roll towards him. Maybe try a retreating short hopped whistle. Then you can throw a pikmin, fair, fast fall->shield/spotdodge or something as a response to what the Marth players does. It's not an awesome option, but it's better than doing a predictable roll.

Secondly, don't approach with your shield against a grounded Marth. He's got a lot more options on the ground than in the air to deal with it. I'm actually a bit surprised he didn't grab you right out of it. It got predictable. :/ If you're ever going to approach with a shield against Marth, do it when he's about to go to the air, and definitely don't do it often. Marth has the ability to punish it hard.

Lastly, you looked really rattled. That's just a mental error. There isn't a way to keep that from happening besides focusing, and working on your Oli and getting better at dealing with what's causing you to get frustrated.

Random tips:
-fsmash is a great zoning tool against Marth. (NOT a great spacing tool. That's what pivotgrabs are for. fsmash=zoning, pivotgrabs=spacing)
-Attempting to edgehog a good Marth is pretty pointless if he has his second jump with him.
-More pluck canceling!

edit:

so my mindset should be more of trying to bait him into pivot grabs instead of pressuring him by getting too close for his liking.

This^

You can't force Marth to do anything. Zone him with fsmashes and grabs, and then bait with shields and punish with pivotgrabs, using the occasional running upsmash or aerial to catch him off guard as he approaches.

That's the approaching/defending side of the matchup in a nutshell.

 

[Ledge_g2]

Thanks DanGR .
That should help me heaps.
Ive got a meet on tonight and ill try these stratergies and mindsets out
thanks again XD.

 

[Llumys]

Good luck!

 

[Fino]

Well ****, you guys covered just about everything I was going to say already <.<

I'm getting slow... lol.

One thing I noticed that others aren't talking much about is that you're very predictable with aerial dodges. Use mix-ups with your air recovery, don't be afraid to FF a whistle if it gets you back on stage; against marth (for the most part) it will set-up for free upsmashes. Work on your whistles

When marth, or any character for that matter, is at low percents... don't throw them off stage <.< try to get some form of a grab combo.... You're freaking olimar... you're not going to ledge guard to gimp them <.< Once you pull a couple grab combos off on marth, they'll get smart and DI the throw away and then fair, or something to that extend. Use counter tactics for whatever they seem to be doing, watch your opponents reactions to grab combos, and follow up those reactions with different moves on the next grab. For the situation I mentioned before, if the marth sees he can DI away and fair you, he will most definitely be doing it the next time, with this in mind you have two good options, either uthrow and then uair (uthrow is slow and can be caught, so use sparingly) or just dthrow and then run up and shield grab the fair.
Don't be afraid to use more than just one grab combo... there are an endless variety of options out of dthrow. There was one time you did a dthrow (lylat) and he prat-fell on the platform... and you retreated and tossed a pikmin!?!?!??!?! Uair that **** man. lol.

When marth is in the air above you, be aggressive with uairs and pikmin chains (make sure to either land cancel or platform cancel them!!!!). This of course follows suit with most char. In fact... just try to cancel tethers more whenever your opponent is in the air, it's a good habbit

Also, don't shield shield breakers ^^;
Getting people to LRAstart is a good feeling isn't it :D
Save your usmash better.... it's such a good kill move ._.
You seem to know how to play olimar, there are just some odd things about your playstyle that just make me @.@ Like the grab combo thing... I saw almost 0... I saw f/bthrows at low percents //wrist lol.
you play too defensively sometimes... there are times where you just don't do anything. don't be afraid to get in peoples faces sometimes... you should always be doing SOMETHING (preferably not rolling or something stupid). If they're supa close, jab (not roll), if they're far away... camp da *****... don't just stand there, it's a waste of your options, and you allow your opponent time to find openings on you.

As for CP... halberd is a good option, or any stage you feel comfortable on with a low ceiling. When debating a match-up you should first consider several things, but the basics are: Are you trying to live longer or kill faster? Against marth you're trying to kill faster. When taking this option, your CP should follow your characters best killing options vs your opponents characters best killing options. Marth is a gimp machine, and wants to control the stage to be able to do so; so picking a big stage is disadvantageous to him, since he has to work harder for stage control. Olimar's purple usmash is easily one of the best kill moves in the game, and so for olimar you want a stage that has a low ceiling. Combining these two options I find halberd a good fit for a CP.
I didn't get to the LM match... cause it's 3 and I have class in a few hours... hope I helped ^^;


~Fino

 

[Llumys]

Fino, you fool. I already covered his air dodges.

 

[Fino]

Fino, you fool. I already covered his air dodges.

Just double checking to make sure he knows
+1

~Fino

 

[Dyyne]

Nooos, I'm late. Uhhhh nice music
One thing that I can say though is that you should try using some charged smashes, they're a great mindgame for oli.

 

[fraudster111]

Fino said exactly what i was thinking. MORE GRAB COMBOES. They look sexy too when you do a 0>53% combo. I dont feel like writing much since i commented on the VIDEO itself lol. Your playstyle is way different from mine. Not saying im a pro oli not that ive seen any >_>. I like being aggressive and hella campy when im like 140%+ but aggressive mixed in well with defensive is the way i go.

 

[fraudster111]

Well ****, you guys covered just about everything I was going to say already <.<

I'm getting slow... lol.

One thing I noticed that others aren't talking much about is that you're very predictable with aerial dodges. Use mix-ups with your air recovery, don't be afraid to FF a whistle if it gets you back on stage; against marth (for the most part) it will set-up for free upsmashes. Work on your whistles

When marth, or any character for that matter, is at low percents... don't throw them off stage <.< try to get some form of a grab combo.... You're freaking olimar... you're not going to ledge guard to gimp them <.< Once you pull a couple grab combos off on marth, they'll get smart and DI the throw away and then fair, or something to that extend. Use counter tactics for whatever they seem to be doing, watch your opponents reactions to grab combos, and follow up those reactions with different moves on the next grab. For the situation I mentioned before, if the marth sees he can DI away and fair you, he will most definitely be doing it the next time, with this in mind you have two good options, either uthrow and then uair (uthrow is slow and can be caught, so use sparingly) or just dthrow and then run up and shield grab the fair.
Don't be afraid to use more than just one grab combo... there are an endless variety of options out of dthrow. There was one time you did a dthrow (lylat) and he prat-fell on the platform... and you retreated and tossed a pikmin!?!?!??!?! Uair that **** man. lol.

When marth is in the air above you, be aggressive with uairs and pikmin chains (make sure to either land cancel or platform cancel them!!!!). This of course follows suit with most char. In fact... just try to cancel tethers more whenever your opponent is in the air, it's a good habbit

Also, don't shield shield breakers ^^;
Getting people to LRAstart is a good feeling isn't it :D
Save your usmash better.... it's such a good kill move ._.
You seem to know how to play olimar, there are just some odd things about your playstyle that just make me @.@ Like the grab combo thing... I saw almost 0... I saw f/bthrows at low percents //wrist lol.
you play too defensively sometimes... there are times where you just don't do anything. don't be afraid to get in peoples faces sometimes... you should always be doing SOMETHING (preferably not rolling or something stupid). If they're supa close, jab (not roll), if they're far away... camp da *****... don't just stand there, it's a waste of your options, and you allow your opponent time to find openings on you.

As for CP... halberd is a good option, or any stage you feel comfortable on with a low ceiling. When debating a match-up you should first consider several things, but the basics are: Are you trying to live longer or kill faster? Against marth you're trying to kill faster. When taking this option, your CP should follow your characters best killing options vs your opponents characters best killing options. Marth is a gimp machine, and wants to control the stage to be able to do so; so picking a big stage is disadvantageous to him, since he has to work harder for stage control. Olimar's purple usmash is easily one of the best kill moves in the game, and so for olimar you want a stage that has a low ceiling. Combining these two options I find halberd a good fit for a CP.
I didn't get to the LM match... cause it's 3 and I have class in a few hours... hope I helped ^^;


~Fino

GnW upsmash is the best kill move in the game just wanted to say that. Probably not true but idc.

 

[Ledge_g2]

Well ****, you guys covered just about everything I was going to say already <.<

I'm getting slow... lol.

One thing I noticed that others aren't talking much about is that you're very predictable with aerial dodges. Use mix-ups with your air recovery, don't be afraid to FF a whistle if it gets you back on stage; against marth (for the most part) it will set-up for free upsmashes. Work on your whistles

When marth, or any character for that matter, is at low percents... don't throw them off stage <.< try to get some form of a grab combo.... You're freaking olimar... you're not going to ledge guard to gimp them <.< Once you pull a couple grab combos off on marth, they'll get smart and DI the throw away and then fair, or something to that extend. Use counter tactics for whatever they seem to be doing, watch your opponents reactions to grab combos, and follow up those reactions with different moves on the next grab. For the situation I mentioned before, if the marth sees he can DI away and fair you, he will most definitely be doing it the next time, with this in mind you have two good options, either uthrow and then uair (uthrow is slow and can be caught, so use sparingly) or just dthrow and then run up and shield grab the fair.
Don't be afraid to use more than just one grab combo... there are an endless variety of options out of dthrow. There was one time you did a dthrow (lylat) and he prat-fell on the platform... and you retreated and tossed a pikmin!?!?!??!?! Uair that **** man. lol.

When marth is in the air above you, be aggressive with uairs and pikmin chains (make sure to either land cancel or platform cancel them!!!!). This of course follows suit with most char. In fact... just try to cancel tethers more whenever your opponent is in the air, it's a good habbit

Also, don't shield shield breakers ^^;
Getting people to LRAstart is a good feeling isn't it :D
Save your usmash better.... it's such a good kill move ._.
You seem to know how to play olimar, there are just some odd things about your playstyle that just make me @.@ Like the grab combo thing... I saw almost 0... I saw f/bthrows at low percents //wrist lol.
you play too defensively sometimes... there are times where you just don't do anything. don't be afraid to get in peoples faces sometimes... you should always be doing SOMETHING (preferably not rolling or something stupid). If they're supa close, jab (not roll), if they're far away... camp da *****... don't just stand there, it's a waste of your options, and you allow your opponent time to find openings on you.

As for CP... halberd is a good option, or any stage you feel comfortable on with a low ceiling. When debating a match-up you should first consider several things, but the basics are: Are you trying to live longer or kill faster? Against marth you're trying to kill faster. When taking this option, your CP should follow your characters best killing options vs your opponents characters best killing options. Marth is a gimp machine, and wants to control the stage to be able to do so; so picking a big stage is disadvantageous to him, since he has to work harder for stage control. Olimar's purple usmash is easily one of the best kill moves in the game, and so for olimar you want a stage that has a low ceiling. Combining these two options I find halberd a good fit for a CP.
I didn't get to the LM match... cause it's 3 and I have class in a few hours... hope I helped ^^;


~Fino

I dont know why but i dont usually play this defencive, I think i was just scared of marth lol. and im used to playing G&Ws and he knows to DI the Dthrow and Fair so i guess its given me some bad habbits to not Dthrow combo when there above 10%.
Thanks for all your help Fino, really appreciate it.
Im from Australia and the meta game here is different(behind), and i only started playing brawl March this year so my style is kinda unbalanced so ill put together all the tips you guys have given me and hopefully change that Thanks.

 

[Fino]

GnW upsmash is the best kill move in the game just wanted to say that. Probably not true but idc.

A lot of things are factored in when considering good kill moves. Obviously a reverse warlock punch is going to kill earlier than a purple pikmin usmash, but how likely is it going to hit?
You have to factor in attack lag (start-up and cool down), hit box size, vulnerability and rationalize those factors into damage/knockback output.

G&W can't really get away with spamming his upsmash like olimar can, which makes olimar's more effective in terms of versatility and viability in that he can use it without much of a set-up.

I dont know why but i dont usually play this defencive, I think i was just scared of marth lol. and im used to playing G&Ws and he knows to DI the Dthrow and Fair so i guess its given me some bad habbits to not Dthrow combo when there above 10%.
Thanks for all your help Fino, really appreciate it.
Im from Australia and the meta game here is different(behind), and i only started playing brawl March this year so my style is kinda unbalanced so ill put together all the tips you guys have given me and hopefully change that Thanks.

It's all good, don't let your region hold you back
Also practice with computers on what you can and can't do with throw combos. Throw combos are still good into mid percents (such as uthrow uair). To make it simpler... don't use f/bthrow until they're at higher percents.... and even then it should be a question of what you want to do to them from the throw ^^;
Practice dthrow fair, it's VERY useful. If you're not landing it, you're not doing it fast enough. dthrow fair is a bufer combo, and you should be able to pull it off on most characters at low %


~Fino

 

[DanGR]

Also practice with computers on what you can and can't do with throw combos.

Fino...

 

[Ledge_g2]

Fino...

lol, yeah its all good, ive already experimented with the combos and stuff, i just completely forgot about them and was just playing too defensive, will keep it a goal from now on to get the combo atleast once a stock for a huge % advantage =D. cant believe i was missing something so simple yet so effective lol.

 

[Llumys]

Make sure you get a lot of throw comboes down. They're obviously escapable, so make sure you read your opponent while comboing.

 

[Fino]

Fino...

Domo plays with computers to practice stuff, as well as several other "good people". there's nothing wrong with playing computers O.o
*lives in an area with no smash scene and still places well*
(smirk)


~Fino

 

[Llumys]

Playing computers can make you develop bad habits...

 

[DanGR]

CPUs are fine to play against to keep you from getting rusty as long as you realize what a real person could/would have done in each and every situation. Practicing against CPUs to find out/see what combos work and don't work, though, is a horrible idea.