Creating a Neutral with Lucairo? (Gameplay to critique included)

[UCDGhost]

I've been doing a lot of research on the neutral with Lucario, as well as comparing my own play to that of top level players, and, to no surprise, have found that my neutral is much worse than theirs.

I'm posting this in regards to discussing his neutral and the different options he has, that way I can develop a better understand of his neutral as a whole, and in turn apply it to my game.

If anyone has any free time, here's a link to my most recent gameplay, a friendlies stream from PMCUCD. You'll have to jump around to find my numerous Lucario matches.
http://www.hitbox.tv/video/778487
(I have some cool hype sets to highlight at 18:00 and 1:22:30, but please go through and watch all of them to see my faults as well)

Feel free to critique my neutral and find where I can improve it. Or even critique my gameplay as a whole!

Let's get this discussion rolling!


P.S. PMCUCD is the Project M Club at UC Davis. I was not introduced into competitive smash until around April of this year, and I went to their first club meeting with no knowledge of the game besides casual Brawl. They taught me everything from the ground up. I went in knowing nothing, not even wave dashing or L-canceling, but have become a dedicated player who loves this game. All thanks to them. They are a great group and are the reason I am here today, I would appreciate it if you gave them a follow.

 

[CND]

I have not watched it yet because my computer will not run hatbox, but I think Reslived did a video analyzing the neutral game of Lucario mains, so if you can you should probably check that out.

I am not really well versed enough to offer much here, but I will try:

Lucario's neutral is kind of tricky. Although it is typically considered bad, I don't know if I would say that; it's definitely not good though. Probably the biggest issue is Lucario's limited approach options. Everyone knows that Lucario players like to dash attack and will try and bait and punish it. It is however, besides DTC jab, the approach that leads into the most options on hit. Short hop aerials can only be canceled into specials, but does not necessarily mean they are not capable of leading into decent combos. If you are going to approach try to mix-up these approaches to be less predictable.

I think that essentially never approaching is the best approach (except in some match-ups). Force your opponent to approach you and try to bait them into missing attacks. To provoke punishable situations Lucario has a number of good movement options to implement. The first and most obvious is using Lucario's dash dance effectively to occupy a length of space and to threaten your opponent's space. Although Lucario's wavedash is one of the worst in the game, it can be used to make your dash dance more difficult to read. Also, I think b related tech is underutilized by Lucario players in neutral. A combination of b-turnarounds, b-reverses, and wavebounces can significantly alter Lucario's movement and make reading Lucario's movement more difficult ands provoke punishable approaches on the part of your opponent. I don't think Stauffy has played recently, but look for video of him and you will probably notice this kind of movement.

Although I don't know how to use platforms effectively, I know that they are helpful for camping and controlling space as well mixing up approaches. Although, aura sphere is not the greatest projectile it can still be used to some extent to pressure opponents into approaching. Also, although aura bombs are generally not good in neutral, if you happen to have one out in neutral for whatever reason be sure to try to take advantage of the space it can threaten. Also, try to practice power shielding to diminish the effectiveness of projectiles from your opponent. Also, it is kind of weird to describe, but forwards smash is a deceptive move that can be used to some extent in Lucario's neutral. The animation pulls in and it is deceptively long, so you can catch people who are approaching from a good distance with forward smash; however, it has a lot of end lag so use it sparingly and with confidence.


Unfortunately, my computer is barely functional and can not run hitbox, so I can't watch the video you suggested, so I watched your set with Notorious that is on Youtube on my phone. It is kind of bad set to critique because Captain Falcon can really wreck Lucario in many regards, and I think you may have just been off that game, also it's three weeks old:

The most prominent mistake I notice you doing in that set is some ill-advised use of DT. I really like to use down-b perhaps too much, but I usually fail to explain good uses of it or justify it. In that set, you too frequently DT right towards your opponent in neutral (mostly from the air). DT's startup and end lag and set distance leave you vulnerable to attack especially against fast characters like Captain Falcon. If you are going to use it in neutral, try to use it over platforms to mix it up and try to not go in the direction of the opponent unless you have a good reason to. You had some decent uses of DT in combos but in general it was excessively used.

You could definitely improve your use of dash dance. It was almost nonexistent in that set. It seems you try to use DT in place of dash dancing but for the reasons already stated, it is not an appropriate substitute. Also, your combo game could use some work I don't think you ever used a tilt other than down tilt and I don't think any were used in a magic series combo. By not using tilts in your combos, you are robbing yourself of damage on your opponent and easier setups into your next move.

Also, the moonwalk into forward smash early in the first game was really cool.

 

[UCDGhost]

Thank you for the reply!

I completely agree with your assessment of the neutral.

I've found that movement and patience is key when playing Lucario. The ability to mix-up movement is required due to the lack of approach options, and this is where I feel Lucario shines. Like you stated before, b-reversed aura spheres are an under-utilized tool, and combining that with dashdance/platform movement, or even DT movement, could really up one's game. I've been incorporating all these styles of movement into my game and have found I am able to get in more since my opponent cannot read me as well. I have also found wavedash back smash to be a powerful spacing tool. I'll continue to focus on the neutral you described to help improve my game.

Also, I can't believe someone actually went out of their way to look for footage of me! Thank you! Sorry that hitbox couldn't work!

I have definitely improved since that day. I actually do a lot of the stuff that you advised me to do now! I dash dance more now, and with more purpose. I use DT with more purpose and less excessively, and I use more tilts in my combo game. So everything you predicted was right lol!

I started analyzing videos lately and realized that's how I learn the best. It really helped my game increase a bunch.

I didn't do well that match simply because Notorious is the best falcon in my region so I was already expecting defeat, and I didn't have as much confidence in my play as I do now. Put those two things together, you are gonna have a bad time.

Thanks for the compliment on the moonwalk fsmash, I had actually found that tech the night before.

 

[CND]

Here is a link to a link to the analysis by Reslived I mentioned in the previous post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/20ASC/comments/3pk8gk/analysis_of_high_level_lucario_play_and_what/
Also, here is a reddit discussion on Lucario's neutral:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/3no257/neutral_game_with_lucario/

Thank you for the reply!
Also, I can't believe someone actually went out of their way to look for footage of me! Thank you! Sorry that hitbox couldn't work!

I have watched some of the button check streams before and I am always interested to know of other Lucario mains that are kind of near the San Francisco bay area. I saw that set when it is was being streamed (yay Hitbox mobile). I was kind of surprised that I could only find that set of recent gameplay.

Also, although I don't know specifics at the moment, but it helps to anticipate what your opponent's neutral options are and how they affect your neutral options. One of the mistakes I typically make against faster characters is failing to recognize they are faster. I think I get used to being the faster character, and just expect to outrun the opponent and being to catch them. When I play against characters like Sonic and Captain Falcon, I forget they are faster and I end up trying to catch them with dash attack but I miss and get put into punishable situations. I noticed you did that I couple of times, so I was thinking it could be a similar thing.

 

[UCDGhost]

Yeah, a lot of the Davis streams have been acting weird lately. My gameplay for the past few months are probably going to come back out in one big packet during my university's winter break, so that'll be nice. That's why there isn't any recent gameplay for me.

That analysis makes a lot of sense as well. I noticed I wasn't a very patient Lucario, so against opponents like Captain Falcon and Sonic, I would always be trying to get in and attack. And like you said, against faster characters that strategy doesn't work. Becoming more patient and taking more time to read my opponents has greatly helped my neutral.

If you are free Saturday sometime between 12-8, PMCUCD is have a friendly, and they are streaming it at hitbox.tv/PMCUCD.
I'd really appreciate it if you watched it! You could comment saying you know Ghost from this smash boards thread, and then I'll try to get on and play some matches so that you can critique my current gameplay.

Also, if you are going to Final Boss next month, I'm pretty sure I'm going and it'd be great to meet and play with you in person, especially since you're another Lucario main.

Edit: I just noticed the links you posted! I actually have watched that Reslived analysis before, and it did help a lot! I'll have to read more into the reddit post asking about Lucario's neutral, but so far I agree with all the talk about the importance of movement. Thanks, again.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I don't think we played, but a little while ago I went to the Ascension tourney in Davis. The one thing I think will help Lucario in neutral in general is to become more comfortable with your defense-to-offense in the neutral. Like trying to make the most out of the little stray hits that you can catch while punishing like CND recommended. One trick I personally like, as a shield grab punish, is to down throw, chase with a F-Air then DTC back to the ground, and wait for the opponent to try to come back down. Either you snag their jump, and they are defenseless, or they jump again, and you can choose how you like to punish the landing. But, idk that much about Lu yet, so I intend to practice a lot with him the more I play the game.

 

[UCDGhost]

Oh sweet, next time your are at a Davis event, ask around for Ghost/ the Davis Lucario main, hopefully we can play! I'd love to teach you what I know about Lucario.

Yeah, getting used to that defensive mindset is what has been helping me. Movement and patience seems to be key, then, like you said, taking that first hit as far as possible is the goal.

I am actually very confident with my offensive game, both combo and tech wise, and that sounds like a combo I do utilize at times. Just gotta be careful with that shield grab since it can be punished easily.

 

[CND]

Yeah, a lot of the Davis streams have been acting weird lately. My gameplay for the past few months are probably going to come back out in one big packet during my university's winter break, so that'll be nice. That's why there isn't any recent gameplay for me.

That analysis makes a lot of sense as well. I noticed I wasn't a very patient Lucario, so against opponents like Captain Falcon and Sonic, I would always be trying to get in and attack. And like you said, against faster characters that strategy doesn't work. Becoming more patient and taking more time to read my opponents has greatly helped my neutral.

If you are free Saturday sometime between 12-8, PMCUCD is have a friendly, and they are streaming it at hitbox.tv/PMCUCD.
I'd really appreciate it if you watched it! You could comment saying you know Ghost from this smash boards thread, and then I'll try to get on and play some matches so that you can critique my current gameplay.

Also, if you are going to Final Boss next month, I'm pretty sure I'm going and it'd be great to meet and play with you in person, especially since you're another Lucario main.

Edit: I just noticed the links you posted! I actually have watched that Reslived analysis before, and it did help a lot! I'll have to read more into the reddit post asking about Lucario's neutral, but so far I agree with all the talk about the importance of movement. Thanks, again.

I'll try to tune in kind of early to the stream if I can. Also, I will be at Final Boss. I will be photographing the event if I am not playing, so I will be (the one/one of the people?) with a camera. I think as of late I am better at theorizing about Lucario than I am at actually executing in gameplay.

I don't think we played, but a little while ago I went to the Ascension tourney in Davis. The one thing I think will help Lucario in neutral in general is to become more comfortable with your defense-to-offense in the neutral. Like trying to make the most out of the little stray hits that you can catch while punishing like CND recommended. One trick I personally like, as a shield grab punish, is to down throw, chase with a F-Air then DTC back to the ground, and wait for the opponent to try to come back down. Either you snag their jump, and they are defenseless, or they jump again, and you can choose how you like to punish the landing. But, idk that much about Lu yet, so I intend to practice a lot with him the more I play the game.

Yah, when playing Lucario I feel you have to balance your aggression and your patience. I think it is easy to get a little bloodthirsty for combos and try obscenely hard to start another combo and consequently behaving irrationally in neutral. Lucario players need to recognize an opening and know when to get in and out. One of the things I think is problematic when I play is I am really aggressive burning charges on ESCs in combos (but they look so cool), which is part of that getting out bit. Then again, I kind of have the mentality to extend a combo to its greatest length, but I think the former is a better mentality.

 

[UCDGhost]

Alright, hopefully you'll see me on stream and hopefully I'll see you at Final Boss.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I'll be there as well. I did the commentary for Boss 2 when sethlon and lucky came through.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I'll try to tune in kind of early to the stream if I can. Also, I will be at Final Boss. I will be photographing the event if I am not playing, so I will be (the one/one of the people?) with a camera. I think as of late I am better at theorizing about Lucario than I am at actually executing in gameplay.


Yah, when playing Lucario I feel you have to balance your aggression and your patience. I think it is easy to get a little bloodthirsty for combos and try obscenely hard to start another combo and consequently behaving irrationally in neutral. Lucario players need to recognize an opening and know when to get in and out. One of the things I think is problematic when I play is I am really aggressive burning charges on ESCs in combos (but they look so cool), which is part of that getting out bit. Then again, I kind of have the mentality to extend a combo to its greatest length, but I think the former is a better mentality.

I can see how that would be a good idea to proceed with. Going too ham doesn't always work. Resetting your positioning always helps. Doing it in a way that lets you off with the most resources benefits Lu the most too.

 

[atara]

To provoke punishable situations Lucario has a number of good movement options to implement. The first and most obvious is using Lucario's dash dance effectively to occupy a length of space and to threaten your opponent's space. Although Lucario's wavedash is one of the worst in the game, it can be used to make your dash dance more difficult to read. Also, I think b related tech is underutilized by Lucario players in neutral. A combination of b-turnarounds, b-reverses, and wavebounces can significantly alter Lucario's movement and make reading Lucario's movement more difficult ands provoke punishable approaches on the part of your opponent. I don't think Stauffy has played recently, but look for video of him and you will probably notice this kind of movement.

I think it might be criminal to write a paragraph about Lucario's movement mixups without mentioning dair. The simplest example is to pretend you're approaching from above (which is generally a terrible idea), float right over your opponent with dair, fall straight down and punish whatever your opponent did; if you time it right you can get a free bair. Of course people will learn to see this coming but there are many other ways to take advantage of it.

Using dair and b-reversal (which I can't do consistently...) together makes Lucario's movement significantly harder to predict, and you need mindgames to win the neutral. Bait and don't punish a few times, wear your opponent out mentally.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I can agree with the spontaneous use of D-air, but im not too sure that trying to make it a prime means of mixing up movement is something I agree with fully. The hitbox on dair is solid and fast, but its also kinda small and takes alotta dedication.

 

[CND]

I think it might be criminal to write a paragraph about Lucario's movement mixups without mentioning dair. The simplest example is to pretend you're approaching from above (which is generally a terrible idea), float right over your opponent with dair, fall straight down and punish whatever your opponent did; if you time it right you can get a free bair. Of course people will learn to see this coming but there are many other ways to take advantage of it.

Using dair and b-reversal (which I can't do consistently...) together makes Lucario's movement significantly harder to predict, and you need mindgames to win the neutral. Bait and don't punish a few times, wear your opponent out mentally.

Do you have more examples of dair usage? Although use it in combos and such I don't think I really understand dair in terms of movement. I know you can use it too stall your vertical momentum, but I feel like I have seen some usage of it that I don't really understand. I think I notice Stauffy use it to some weird effect where it almost seems like a DJC to change momentum.

Also, do you mean that there is something you can do from dair using b-reverse or just those things mostly exclusive to one another improve Lucario's neutral. I use b-reverses and b-turnarounds heavily in neutral (especially because I generally fail with wavedash/waveland usage) and I am trying to incorporate wavebounces. Smart usage of b-tech definitely has the potential to improve Lucario's neutral.

 

[UCDGhost]

I think I notice Stauffy use it to some weird effect where it almost seems like a DJC to change momentum.

Yeah, air slightly stalls movement, so when you combine this with a double jump, it will actually stall all your horizontal movement. IPK does this when he wants an offstage spike. He will jump towards his opponent then quickly double jump to dair in order to get above the opponent while staying in place. Then he just hits the dair and cancels into side-b.

I use b-reverses and b-turnarounds heavily in neutral (especially because I generally fail with wavedash/waveland usage) and I am trying to incorporate wavebounces.

I recommend getting wavebounces and wavelands down. One really cool option I like to use incorporates both of these. I like to run towards center stage, then full hop into wave bounce back towards the platform, waveland forward off the platform I just ran past, then go into fair. It is really useful because it can bait your opponent in and then surprise them with a quick/unexpected follow-up. Plus it looks cool.

 

[CND]

Yeah, air slightly stalls movement, so when you combine this with a double jump, it will actually stall all your horizontal movement. IPK does this when he wants an offstage spike. He will jump towards his opponent then quickly double jump to dair in order to get above the opponent while staying in place. Then he just hits the dair and cancels into side-b.

I am not sure I understand this correctly. Do you happen to know where in one of his sets he uses this?

I recommend getting wavebounces and wavelands down. One really cool option I like to use incorporates both of these. I like to run towards center stage, then full hop into wave bounce back towards the platform, waveland forward off the platform I just ran past, then go into fair. It is really useful because it can bait your opponent in and then surprise them with a quick/unexpected follow-up. Plus it looks cool.

Yah, this is a really good example of using both wavebounces and wavelands. I almost have wavebounces down reliably, but I still need to get wavelands down. Since it sounds like you have good movement, what is your opinion of platforms in Lucario's neutral? Since I am not good with wavedashing and wavelanding, I mostly just use them to make approaching with down special and approaching in general less predictable, so I generally prefer Smashville and PS2 instead of something like Battlefield.

Also, I tried checking Project M streams on that date but I didn't notice the stream being listed. Did you get more recent footage of your gameplay?

 

[UCDGhost]

Sorry for not getting back to you! I haven't been on smashboards in a while.

I am not sure I understand this correctly. Do you happen to know where in one of his sets he uses this?

https://youtu.be/zc9hVD6U9rM?t=3m30s Here's where he does it in his latest combo video. Notice how he cancels the first hit of down air into a command grab after he double jumps. The double jump gives him better positioning to give him more of a guarantee the grab.

Since it sounds like you have good movement, what is your opinion of platforms in Lucario's neutral?

Lol Thank you! In my opinion, platforms are crucial to Lucario's game. I recommend labbing and getting wavedashes. wavelands, b-reverse cancels, and wavebounces down, along with continuing to use your down-b approach from platforms. I incorporate all this and the options it opens up for me helps make up for the limited number of approach options Lucario's movies has. By giving myself multiple angles to approach from, it makes it harder for my opponent to read my approach, this improving my options. Just practice them as much as you can then just mess around and move all around the stages , once you get that down, begin adding attacks to the end of your movement set-ups. It drastically improved my game and hopefully it will l do the same for you.

Also, watch almost any IPK match, and you'll see he loves to move through platforms. I feel this is partially why he is such a great Lucario.

Just remember to always move with reason, whether its to avoid your opponent, bait your opponent, or to zone him. Don't get into the habit of doing all this just to do it, or else you'll get easily read and punished.

I generally prefer Smashville and PS2 instead of something like Battlefield.

I actually love all three! Once I got my movement options down, all three have platforms that give me many movement options to choose from as well as a decent amount of space to actually move around in. Once you get down the movement options I described I think you'll see what I mean.

Also, I tried checking Project M streams on that date but I didn't notice the stream being listed. Did you get more recent footage of your gameplay?

That's strange, everything on the most recent section should have my most recent gameplay. I haven't been on any streams or recordings for about a month, so anything there will be the most recent. Unfortunately, I haven't been on stream lately, as I don't place well at my local tournaments. It mostly has to do with lots of flubs due to nervous jitters, as well as still being relatively new to the game (The end of this month will be my 9 month anniversary), along with an unhealthy mindset while playing. However, I have been improving rather drastically over the past month! I even started beating people on my local PR during our friendly sessions! Hopefully that means these improvements can transfer into tourney matches and I can get you more footage.

If you are still going to FinalBoss, I'd love to play some sets with you and teach you what I know! My tag is PMC_UCD | Ghost, so hopefully they give out name tags and we can find each other. If anything, if you are walking around and you see some white kid playing with the white Lucario and the "ACME" tag over Lucario's head, that'll be me, feel free to introduce yourself!

P.S. What also increased my game immensely was just having fun with the game, while taking serious time to study footage. I will study all kinds of Lucario footage, including my own, and begin to theory craft once I have an more in-depth understanding of Lucario based off of the footage I watched. Then I will lab both by myself and against CPU's in order to test these theories and see what I can do.

However, I would try to analyze my own matches while playing, and this would just frustrate me and cause me to over think. This was very unhealthy because I would get so salty at my on mistakes that it would ruin my game. Once I just started playing just to play, and let my subconscious do all the thinking, I noticed I was making less mistakes. I was getting more reads based on the newfound instinctual knowledge I had obtained from watching videos. And most important of all, I was having fun.

So basically, Study and lab hard, do all of your in-depth thinking and theory crafting there, but when it comes time to play, just play and let your instincts do their thing. The more you study, and the more you play, the better your instincts will get. Don't try to analyze your own matches mid-game, just have fun with it!

Hope to see you at FinalBoss!

 

[CND]

Sorry for not getting back to you! I haven't been on smashboards in a while.

https://youtu.be/zc9hVD6U9rM?t=3m30s Here's where he does it in his latest combo video. Notice how he cancels the first hit of down air into a command grab after he double jumps. The double jump gives him better positioning to give him more of a guarantee the grab.

I extremely misread the earlier post. I thought you meant something really weird, but now that I re-read it that makes sense. Yah, I am definitely aware of dair into aFP.

Lol Thank you! In my opinion, platforms are crucial to Lucario's game. I recommend labbing and getting wavedashes. wavelands, b-reverse cancels, and wavebounces down, along with continuing to use your down-b approach from platforms. I incorporate all this and the options it opens up for me helps make up for the limited number of approach options Lucario's movies has. By giving myself multiple angles to approach from, it makes it harder for my opponent to read my approach, this improving my options. Just practice them as much as you can then just mess around and move all around the stages , once you get that down, begin adding attacks to the end of your movement set-ups. It drastically improved my game and hopefully it will l do the same for you.

Also, watch almost any IPK match, and you'll see he loves to move through platforms. I feel this is partially why he is such a great Lucario.

Just remember to always move with reason, whether its to avoid your opponent, bait your opponent, or to zone him. Don't get into the habit of doing all this just to do it, or else you'll get easily read and punished.

Yah, I mostly have b-tech down, but not wavelands and wavedashing. I was hoping to have all this down before Final Boss but that is definitely not the case. The b-tech can really change up Lucario's neutral although I am over-reliant on those and use them excessively. Although Lucario's waveland and wavedash distance are sad, they definitely have significant uses in conjunction with b-tech and dash dance. It is good to hear that incorporating these things has improved your gameplay.

I actually love all three! Once I got my movement options down, all three have platforms that give me many movement options to choose from as well as a decent amount of space to actually move around in. Once you get down the movement options I described I think you'll see what I mean.

That's interesting. I think Battlefield is not a bad stage for Lucario, but I don't think it's ideal. Theoretically, your opponent should be taking advantage of platform movement as well and unless they are playing Peach or Zelda they probably have better wavedashes and wavelands, but maybe Lucario's b-tech will make up for it. The problem I have with Battlefield is that the platforms are not distant enough to reliably continue combos on a lot of the roster. I am very up smash heavy so Battlefield doesn't let combos reliably except on floaties. I will definitely consider Battlefield for floaties. For floaties, Battlefield's platforms let you follow up a combo that could other stages will not provide.

P.S. What also increased my game immensely was just having fun with the game, while taking serious time to study footage. I will study all kinds of Lucario footage, including my own, and begin to theory craft once I have an more in-depth understanding of Lucario based off of the footage I watched. Then I will lab both by myself and against CPU's in order to test these theories and see what I can do.

However, I would try to analyze my own matches while playing, and this would just frustrate me and cause me to over think. This was very unhealthy because I would get so salty at my on mistakes that it would ruin my game. Once I just started playing just to play, and let my subconscious do all the thinking, I noticed I was making less mistakes. I was getting more reads based on the newfound instinctual knowledge I had obtained from watching videos. And most important of all, I was having fun.

So basically, Study and lab hard, do all of your in-depth thinking and theory crafting there, but when it comes time to play, just play and let your instincts do their thing. The more you study, and the more you play, the better your instincts will get. Don't try to analyze your own matches mid-game, just have fun with it!

Interesting. I think I might do the opposite though. I can definitely find the fun mindest (I had the most intense game ever at Prombay in a game we gentleman's to Rainbow Cruise, it went to the last thirty seconds with both of us at 120+%), but I play significantly better in tournament games and I think my biggest improvements come from frustration. I don't know really. I definitely don't critique myself midset other than trying to notice bad approaches. Even when it's frustrating though it's still fun.

If you are still going to FinalBoss, I'd love to play some sets with you and teach you what I know! My tag is PMC_UCD | Ghost, so hopefully they give out name tags and we can find each other. If anything, if you are walking around and you see some white kid playing with the white Lucario and the "ACME" tag over Lucario's head, that'll be me, feel free to introduce yourself!

I'll be at Final Boss. As I mentioned earlier, I'll be photographing when I am not getting destroyed in pools, so I'll probably be noticeable. Would you perhaps like to do some small money match like $2? It might help to quickly identify differences in our playstyles and make it easier to point out critiques to each other.

 

[UCDGhost]

Yah, I mostly have b-tech down, but not wavelands and wavedashing. I was hoping to have all this down before Final Boss but that is definitely not the case. The b-tech can really change up Lucario's neutral although I am over-reliant on those and use them excessively. Although Lucario's waveland and wavedash distance are sad, they definitely have significant uses in conjunction with b-tech and dash dance. It is good to hear that incorporating these things has improved your gameplay.

I also was very down-b reliant on movement, and I still am a bit right now, and personally I don't think there's too much wrong with that. Like you said, it's about the incorporation of all these options together, rather than using one piece in abundance.

The problem I have with Battlefield is that the platforms are not distant enough to reliably continue combos on a lot of the roster. I am very up smash heavy so Battlefield doesn't let combos reliably except on floaties.

I agree that they can't be used for combos as well, but the movement options they provide outweigh this in my opinion. I also agree that using upsmash heavy combos is difficult here, I'd recommend trying to use utilt or side-b combos on this stage. There are times were I have to adapt my combo game to the stage itself, by like I said, the movement options are great.

For example, when coming down the top platform, wavedashing off of the top platform to waveband off of a side platform to center stage and having an advantageous position in the neutral is a great thing to do on this stage.

Or, if you are really comfortable with your combo style for now, keep doing what you probably do now and don't pick to it lol.

Interesting. I think I might do the opposite though. I can definitely find the fun mindest (I had the most intense game ever at Prombay in a game we gentleman's to Rainbow Cruise, it went to the last thirty seconds with both of us at 120+%), but I play significantly better in tournament games and I think my biggest improvements come from frustration. I don't know really. I definitely don't critique myself midset other than trying to notice bad approaches. Even when it's frustrating though it's still fun.

Whatever suits you. I noticed for my the frustrated approach made me worse. However, if you feel its helps you, then by all means keep that up!

I'll be at Final Boss. As I mentioned earlier, I'll be photographing when I am not getting destroyed in pools, so I'll probably be noticeable. Would you perhaps like to do some small money match like $2? It might help to quickly identify differences in our playstyles and make it easier to point out critiques to each other.

Right, I remember you saying that now about the camera. Hopefully I don't get destroyed in pools either lol.

I'm totally down for a little money match. It'll be cool to see both our Lucario's in competitive action, and as you said, get each others advice. I'll do my best to give you a good fight.

 

[CND]

To summarize the following for people who aren't specifically Ghost:

• Be careful with use of down special. It has its uses, but positioning yourself in front of your opponent with endlag is not one of the most useful.
• Don't let your neutral game drop after taking an opponent's stock. You are at a disadvantage given their invincibility. If you want to be risky and mix up your position while your opponent is spawning, you can land an attack on your opponent and cancel into DT to mix up your position. Even though that attack won't deal damage, it will award you aura points
• You can do multiple things out of moonwalk to mix things up. Forward smash and back air are probably the best offensive options out of moonwalk, but double team and B-tech aura sphere spheres and ASC can make those other options less predictable

Alright, hopefully you'll see me on stream and hopefully I'll see you at Final Boss.

I just watched your amateur grand finals match (I just started watching the stream during the second game). I can write up a more extensive review of it if it gets uploaded to Youtube, but there were things I noticed I can mention now:

Your combo game is significantly better from the video I saw a while ago (I also knew that from Final Boss), but you still made a lot of ill-advised actions.

The most apparent was again "poor" usage of down special which seems to be something that has continued to carry over into your gameplay. I was surprised you did not get punished for it often, but you set yourself up multiple times. The silliest one was the Ganondorf player spawned straight down and stood there and you DT right towards him while he was invincible putting yourself in the perfect position to be punished, but luckily it did not provoke any sort of a response somehow (hence why I had to put poor in quotes). Although you didn't get punished in that situation, there was basically nothing to be gained from that DT use. This was the pinnacle of questionable DT usage in that set, but it wasn't the only example. As I mentioned in the first post I made in the thread. Double Team's lag and set distance make it dangerous to use in neutral if you are going to put yourself right in front of your opponent. Try to DT behind your opponent especially with hopes that you will DT through a move or at least do not enter the range of any somewhat quick moves.

Also, just because you KO'd an opponent and they have to spawn does not mean the neutral ends. You have a little time to breathe or whatever, but don't get caught staying in one spot. You had a tendency to stay in one spot as your opponent spawned which allows your opponent to either attack you while invincible or a least approach and limit the space you had to work with. Try move around especially on platforms so your position isn't so obvious. Also, if you want to be risky you can try to hit your opponent as they spawn while they are invincible and DT to the other side. Although that will give you aura it still is super risky and for the most part not advisable.

Also, I can't really speak on it since my wavedash skills are basically non-existent, but I felt your wavedashing was a little ineffective at times. Although it is merely speculative on my part, I think you try to dash dance into wavedash more rather than just wavedashing. I think you did do this in the set, but there were a few instances where you just repeatedly wavedashed backwards which could be too predictable or you wavedashed back and forth. Again, I am not one to speak on this but I would think these wavedash patterns would at threat to a character like Ganondorf with large sweeping aerials that can cover the space covered by your wavedash. If you dash forward wavedash backwards and dash dance into wavedashes, you can threaten more space and make your movement more ambiguous (my understanding at least)



I wrote up a bit on things you can do out of moonwalk since I mentioned at Final Boss that your moonwalk into forward smash was surprisingly predictable, but I don't know what happened and it didn't seem to post. I will just write other possibly useful actions out of moonwalk:

Moonwalk into:

• Forward Smash (or any other smash attack but forward seems especially useful)
• Short Hop Into:
• Back air
• Neutral Air
• Double Team
• Normal, B-Reverse, B-Turnaround, or Wavebounce AS and/or ASC

If one were to use moonwalk a lot in a neutral scenario, while back air and forward smash are probably the best offensive options, double team and B-tech neutral b can make the offensive options less predictable.

 

[UCDGhost]

Thank you for this reply!

I'm just going to do a quick bullet point summary on my thoughts since this is a big study week for me, but I really do appreciate the time you took up on this.

Also the video is now up on Youtube!

• Down Special: I completely agree with this statement. I'm getting a lot better at noticing my habits, and that is one I am working on breaking. Knowing that it is an easy habit to pick up on/punish just provides me more motivation to work on changing up my usage of it.

• KO'd opponent: I'm getting used to creating the neutral after a KO. Often times, I probably stopped to collect myself and prepare for the next stock. As I get better at this, I'll work on the movement you described.

• Wavedashing: While normally I would agree with your statement, in this particular match this kind of movement was allowing me to win the neutral. If you notice, the Gannondorf was extremely predicable with his approach. He would often float fair or raw fair, and all of his attacks were only from approaching from the front. Thus, I would use dash dancing wavedash back to wait him out, then punish his front-only approach. I feel that this movement is advantageous only for this situation.

• Moonwalk: I've been working on different moonwalk approaches in friendlies, and mixing it up has shown better results. I think the options you described out of moonwalk are very viable. One I would add is down air, actually. Its very safe if you can bait your opponent with the moonwalk, and it gives you a guaranteed side-b cancel if you get the hit-confirm (shield or not), or leads to down-b cancel mix ups. Casino Wolf actually recommended this when I got bopped by him in pools, and its been working well.

Also, I've implemented upsmash juggling a bit more since I saw you using it at FinalBOSS, and it's awesome. I don't rely on it but when I see the opportunity, I feel it's a great option.