Create 1.16!

[MarioMeteor]

You're the balancing team and you're on the last dredges of your budget. You have just enough money left for one more patch, but that's it. So make this one like your last, because it is. But be reasonable though, you only have so much money.

 

[Green Zelda]

pre 1.0.4 sheik

 

[Synchronize]

Falco
Reduce D-Air startup (Change it to Melee's please)
Bring back the Short Hop Lasers
BRING BACK SHINE

 

[E-Mann]

Buff all the low tiers. ALL OF THEM.

 

[Lavani]

Witch Twist

• Height reduced
• Lower hitbox changed to aerial-only; allows for OoS punishes
• +5 frames endlag

dABK

• Increased endlag on rebound (shouldn't be safe on shield)
• Slightly reduced rebound height/knockback

Witch Time

• Frame data matching Corrin's counter
• No longer works against unblockable moves

Bullet Arts

• Pointblank hits no longer have hitstun

Limit Cross Slash

• Hit 5 damage: 10% -> 8%
• Hit 5 KBG: Increased to slightly offset the knockback loss, should kill 5~10% later than current

Inhale

• Increased grabbox size (currently his lip tends to get hit by things like spin dash when trying to inhale, which Kirby and Wario can Inhale/Chomp just fine)

Gordo

• Immune to other projectiles; can only be reflected by direct attacks

Dthrow

• Reverted to 1.0.0 numbers

Rapid Jab Ender

• Deadzone on the tip of the blade fixed (matching Pit's)

Usmash

• Hit 1 angle 366° -> 365°

Dash Attack, Dash Grab

• Increased inertia

Dthrow

• Angle 70° -> 80°

Jab1, Nair, Fair, Uair

• +1% damage

Bair

• 12%/9% -> 14%/10%

All smashes

• -5 frames endlag

Auto-Reticle

• Hitbox size 2.3 -> 3.3

General hitbox buffs to match Marcina's range

Bthrow

• Reduced endlag, allowing for bthrow>bair

Flare Blade

• Hitbox size 8.7 -> 9.7

Fsmash

• Reverted to Brawl endlag (FAF 50 -> 40)

Fair, Bair

• Sourspot damage 4% -> 6%
• Sourspot BKB slightly increased to be safe on hit

Din's Fire

• Transcendent
• Faster animation
• Aerial version doesn't put Zelda in helpless

Phantom

• Charge can be shield canceled
• Gap between first and second hit on full charge reduced, preventing rolling out of hit 2 after shielding hit 1 among other silly things

Would buff, unsure how. I've messed around with some edits but haven't found anything I've liked.

 

[Mariofan13]

Witch Twist

• Hitbox size decreased
• 2nd Witch Twist puts her into freefall
• Triple jump glitch fixed

Afterburner Kick

• Hitbox size decreased
• Down-angled: more endlag on rebound, isn't safe on shield anymore

Witch Time:

• Framedata matches Corrin's counter
• Unstalls slower

Rapid Jab:
SDI multiplier added, so that SDIing out of it is possible

Clown cannon:

• Less startup and endlag
• Charge can be storaged like Samus's Charge Shot
• Projectile is a bit stronger

Dair

• Spike hitbox is smalle, so it's more difficult to spike someone out of his recovery

Knee

• Less endlag

Limit cross slash

• Last hit damage 10 -> 8

Fair

• Spike hitbox is smaller

Uair

• More startup lag

UpB

• Sweetspots the ledge without limit too

SideB

• Tipper hitbox weaker

Counter

• Weaker, it's still extremely strong

Fair and nair

• Less startup

SHuriken

• Can be absorbed by bucket and psi magnet

SideB

• Fix that sideB glitch, sideb should no longer whiff when hitting the upper part of the opponent's hurtbox

Counter

• Some invincibility frames when it's triggered to guarantee the hit against multihit moves too

Rest

• Less endlag OR forces a screen/star KO everytimes to make it safe on kill (now you can punish jiggs when you got blast KO'ed by her rest)
• Slightly bigger hitbox (sometimes it whiffs although you're standig as close as possible to the opponent)

Rollout

• Doesn't cause helplessness when hitting an opponent

Smashes

• Less damage and shield damage

Aerials

• All of them should be a bit stronger and more useful

UppB

• Aerial goes as high as grounded

Uptilt

• More KBG

• Weight increased

Fair

• Less landing lag, autocancels put of a shorthop
• Sourspot a bit more hitstun to make it safe on hit

Dtilt

• Hitbox should match animation

Dhrow

• A bit more bkb and hitstun, less KBG to prevent fastfallers putting their shield up before anything can hit

NeutralB

• Less endlag

DOwnB

• Less endlag when absorbing something

Bthrow

• Much weaker KBG

• Less endlag on all smashes
• Fair more damage and KB
• Faster tilts

Gyro

• Shouldn't respawn so quickly

Upair

• Less KB

Uair

• Hitbox size decreased
• Much less BKB

Luma

• Neeeds longer to respawn

• More range, like Marth
• Bigger hitbox on flare blade

• Bair more KB
• Ftilt and uptilt more KB

Un-Fair

• Smaller spike hitbox

Dair

• Less damage output

• Spurspot on fair and bair more bkb to make it safe on hit
• No freefall after aerial sideb
• Phantom charge can be storaged

• UpB last hit decreased KBG

 

[Jmacz]

Air Speed

• .92-->.98

Fall Speed/Fast Fall Speed

• 1.4-->1.48
• 2.368

Charizard's lack of air speed is still his biggest problem imo, the .5 we got in 1.1.5 helped but wasn't enough. This will give Zard an actual fighting chance of landing, as well as making him more of a threat in the air. These may be a bit overboard, but another Air Speed increase is still needed imo. The fast fall speed would put him at a tie with the Pit's, seeing as the are both winged characters who were able to glide in the last game this seemed right.

U-Tilt

• Hitbox active: 9-13-->7-11
• FAF: 34-->28
• Damage: 8%-->7%
• KBG: 140-->120
  
• Additional Hitboxes added closer to the ground.

As of right now, U-Tilt is outclassed by U-Smash in most situations as it hits aerial opponents frame 6 and is easier to land. This would give U-Tilt a bit more utility while nerfing it's kill power to keep it balanced. The new hitboxes would allow Charizard to connect with grounded opponents more consistently.


Grabs

• Standing Grab: 8-9-->7-8
• Dash Grab: 10-11-->9-10
• Pivot Grab: 11-12-->10-11

This is more just for Charizard's dash grab as I feel it is a bit lacking, this may not be overly necessary but I feel like this small increase will help Zard's poor neutral game a bit.

N-Air

• Hitbox Active: 9-25-->7-23
• FAF: 60-->50

F-Air

• Hitbox Active: 8-9-->6-7
• Hitbox Active (Late): 10-11-->9-11
• Hitbox added to match animation. (Why there is additional frame on the late hitbox)
• FAF:47-->42

The landing lag buffs helped a lot last patch, but Zard still needs some help with his moves coming out faster and that is what this is for. The N-Air buff won't be to much of an issue, but F-Air may need a damage/knockback nerf to further balance it. Frame 6 may also be a bit fast, but after looking at some of the cast it doesn't seem to off as Charizard seems to be one of the only characters without a frame 6 (The others seem to all have disjoints) or faster aerial which makes no sense.

Flamethrower

• Hitbox Active: 20, 27, 34, 41, etc --> 15, 22, 29, 36
• FAF: 71-->61

Making Flamethrower faster would really continue to help with Zard's poor neutral game. Along with the faster aerials this is the piece to giving Charizard a decent neutral game.

Rock Smash

• Super Armor: 5-23-->3-21

This is just simply to help Charizard get out of a few more combos/strings he would have had problems escaping before. I was tempted to go lower, but one of Charizard's customs (Rock Hurl) already has frame 1 armor so I doubt we would get lower than 3rd.

In addition to these changes D-Throw may also need to be balanced because of Charizard's air speed buffs. In my opinion Charizard doesn't need a "Hoo-Hah" to be a good character, and with buffed air speed he just might. If this was the case I would suggest either adding more endlag to D-Throw, or (the better choice imo) changing the angle it sends you. Causing Charizard to guess whether he needs to F-Air or U-Air depending on DI. This is how his throw works now, but with the buffs he would probably be able to get the U-Air kill confirm a lot easier. His auto-cancel windows may need a slight change as well because of the fall speed increase. I imagine this would make N-Air and F-Air not auto cancel which is no good.

I feel like these changes would keep Charizard true to his design, while not making him terribly overpowered (I doubt even with this he would crack top 15). He would still have problems landing and getting comboed, it just wouldn't be near impossible against some characters anymore. His air game would feel vastly improved, but he's a damn flying Pokemon. He should have a decent air game.

 

[Newbarktown]

The cool part is with the recent Wii U exploits, a fan patch is possible. Cheers to recreating Sm4sh 1.00/1.01 on Wii U and watching chaos ensue.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Flare Blade

• Hitbox size 8.7 -> 9.7

That sounds gross.

Spoiler: Buffs for Jigglypuff

Jab 2: FAF improved from frame 20 to frame 15.
Forward tilt: KBG 100 -> 120.
Up tilt: KBG 120 -> 80, hitbox size increased.
Up smash: Invincibility added to frames 13-19, FAF decreased from 46 to 40, startup decreased from 16 frames to 13 frames, KBG increased from 105 to 115.
Down smash: Startup decreased from frame 14 to frame 12, damage increased from 11% to 13%, KBG increased from 69 to 74.
Down air: Landing lag decreased, 30 frames -> 15 frames. Final hit now meteor smashes weakly.
Back air: Starting and active frames improved (12-13 -> 10-13), FAF decreased (45 -> 30).
Up air: Active frames changed (9-21 -> 6-18), this means that the move is active for the same amount of frames (12), it just starts and recovers sooner. FAF decreased, (45 -> 35).
Forward throw: Changed to a semi-spike angle. Knockback: 30 base/100 growth -> 15 base/105 growth.
Down throw: Knockback: 45 base/100 growth -> 37 base/90 growth. Ending lag is decreased as well, allowing it to combo until mid percents.
Back throw: Angle lowered. KBG increased: 90 -> 100.
Up throw: KBG increased: 110 -> 125, this repurposes it into a reliable KO move.
Rollout: No longer forces Jigglypuff to spin in place after hitting an opponent.
Pound: Gives Jigglypuff greater forward momentum instead of freezing her in place.
Sing: The move is now one long, very active "sleepbox" instead of three separate ones. The move starts up much faster (frame 29 -> frame 15) and ends quicker (frame 180 -> 164). Opponents are also asleep for longer.
Rest: Always triggers a Star KO upon hit.

 

[Axel311]

Not gonna name all, would take too long. But I'll list the 3 that clearly need nerfs, then list my 3 mains that need buffs. I think these are all very reasonable, trying to not go overboard with any of these.



- Upair - More startup lag and landing lag
- Nair - More landing lag
- Up B - Now stalls briefly when activated, similar to how captain falcon's up B stalls before the upward motion initiates. Essentially adds start up lag to up B, making it easier to edgeguard.




- Reduce size of Up B hitbox
- 2nd Up B always puts her in freefall
- More end lag on Side B
- Witch Time - Increased recharge time



- Increase luma respawn timer by ~20%
- Reduce luma base knockback growth
- Down B can no longer absorb Ness and Lucas's recoveries



- Less endlag on fair, upsmash, neutral B
- Fix hitboxes on bair and fair to match animation
- Fix hitbox on dtilt so it doesn't wiff up close
- Backthrow now a killthrow, kills at ~125% at the ledge
- Side B reflection threshold increased to 4%



- Bair kills ~10% earlier
- All projectiles when eaten now build waft meter, instead of only items
- Benefit from eating all projectiles increased to 4% healing, 4 seconds off waft timer. (Bike and bike parts still remain at 1% and 1 second for balance purposes and to prevent bike respawn camping)
- Less startup lag on Ftilt



- Less endlag on fair
- Less endlag on Up B when landing on stage
- Slightly more vertical distance on Up B
- Weight +3 units

 

[Frizz]

• Removed from the game

 

[atticusfinch7]

Nerfed Mario Usmash and Luigi Fsmash.... I keep hoping for it, but it never comes...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nerfed Mario Usmash and Luigi Fsmash.... I keep hoping for it, but it never comes...

They're never going to even look at Mario, and why would they nerf Luigi even more than they already have?

 

[Eugene Wang]

Universal
* Rage and staling affect knockback growth, rather than the whole of knockback
* Shield stun is proportional to shield damage, rather than base damage
* Allow miis in for glory. They always display as default miis.


* Aerial acceleration increased to .065.
* Fair sourspots and late hit base knockback increased to 15
* Bair sourspots and late hit base knockback increased to 14
* Dair late hit base knockback increased to 10. Dair clean/late knockback growth is reduced to 80/60 to compensate.
* Standing grab, dash grab, and pivot grab FAF reduced to 34, 40, and 39, respectively. Pivot grab gets a fairly large range buff, putting it on par with Bowser's.
* Dthrow FAF reduced so that Dthrow -> Uair is a true kill combo for a narrow band of percentages.
* Naryu's love FAF reduced to frame 55. Reflection active up to frame 44.
* Din's fire sourspot stays out for 18 frames. Din's fire no longer causes helplessness.
* Farore's Wind second hit knockback angle changed to 80. Base knockback increased and knockback growth decreased to make the ladder a kill mix-up for a wider range of percentages.
* Phantom hits on frame 35.


* Rapid jab gets a slight range increase. Rapid jab finisher FAF reduced to frame 38.
* Ftilt gets an intermediate hit that is active for frames 25-32 and has the same properties as the first hit. Final hit now hits frames 33-41. The last hit loses the no-rebound property. FAF reduced to frame 60.
* Utilt's final hit loses its no-rebound property. FAF reduced to frame 53.
* Fsmash's windboxes have their angle changed to 30, making them almost semi-spikes, with their base knockback reduced to compensate. FAF reduced to frame 60.
* Usmash stays out from frames 16-32. FAF reduced to frame 60.
* Dsmash's windboxes have their angle changed to 30, making them almost semi-spikes, with their base knockback reduced to compensate. FAF reduced to frame 63.
* Dair stays out from frames 9-15.
* Fthrow angle reduced to 20.
* Autoreticle FAF reduced to frame 60.
* Heavenly light gets a large base knockback increase.
* Reflect stays tangible for longer.
* Warp's invincibility extended to frame 45.
* Counter gets a large range increase.


* Air acceleration increased to .04.
* Jab 1 active frames increased to frames 5-8.
* Dsmash sourspot angle changed to 130.
* Nair first hit active frames 5-8.
* Fair autocancel window pushed back to make it autocancel out of a full hop.
* Bair autocancel window pushed back, allowing it to autocancel out of a short hop even if started late to hit grounded opponents.
* Dair meteor smashes at every percent.
* Standing grab, dash grab, and pivot grab get moderate range increases.
* Pummel deals 4.2 damage.
* Back throw knockback growth increased so it can KO at 160%.
* Up throw base knockback decreased so Ganondorf can follow up on it more easily.
* Dthrow FAF reduced to increase its combo potential at low-mid percents.
* Aerial warlock punch gets moderate knockback armor from frames 19-60, 19-52 if B-reversed.
* Flame choke's range becomes larger. No longer causes helplessness.


* Weight increased to 70.
* Air deceleration increased to 0.1.
* Jab range increased slightly.
* Ftilt range increased.
* Utilt gets a second low hitbox that hits enemies touching Jigglypuff towards her back. It deals 4 damage, has a knockback angle of 110, and has a BKB of 50 and a KBG of 10.
* Dtilt KBG increased somewhat.
* Dash attack angle changed to 30. KBG reduced to compensate.
* Fsmash FAF reduced to 44.
* Usmash FAF reduced to 41.
* Dsmash FAF reduced to 42. Range increased.
* Nair clean BKB increased to 50. Late KBG increased to 75. Clean knockback angle reduced to 35.
* Fair BKB increased to 40. Clean knockback angle reduced to 30, KBG reduced to compensate.
* Bair knockback angle reduced to 30, with KBG decreased to to compensate.
* Uair BKB increased to 50. FAF reduced to 40.
* Fthrow angle reduced to 35. KBG reduced to compensate.
* Bthrow angle reduced to 30. KBG reduced to compensate.
* Uthrow KBG increased to let it KO at realistic percents.
* Dthrow FAF reduced slightly to let it combo into Rest at kill percents if staled.
* Rollout goes into tumble 40 frames after it connects.
* Sing gets a hitbox that causes aerial opponents contacting Jigglypuff to go to sleep. FAF reduced to 150.
* Rest flower strength doubled. Rest hitbox size increased slightly. FAF reduced to 180.


* Rapid Jab finisher FAF reduced to frame 36.
* Ftilt damage increased to 10/9.
* Utilt damage increased to 8.
* Dtilt damage increased to 10.
* Dash attack damage increased to 12/8.
* Fsmash gets a late hit from frames 18-25. It deals 14 damage, has a BKB of 30, a KGB of 90, and a sakurai knockback angle. Clean knockback growth increased to 105. FAF reduced to 60.
* Usmash KBG increased to 96.
* Dsmash KBG increased to 85/88.
* Nair FAF reduced to 45. Late hit damage increased to 6.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow and Bthrow both buffed so they work as kill throws around 150%.
* Shot-put knockback angle reduced to 35, with knockback growth reduced to compensate. FAF reduced to 65.
* Ultimate uppercut grants a small amount of vertical distance. This increases to a moderately high amount if fully changed.
* Exploding Side Kick grants more horizontal distance. The aerial version grants a small amount of vertical distance if not fastfalled.
* Burning Dropkick loses its projectile-like properties, making it unreflectable. It grants a bit more horizontal distance.
* Headache maker loses its helpless properties. Its FAF becomes 59. Landing lag reduced to 30.
* Soaring Axe Kick cancels and can be reused if the meteor hit connects. Improved vertical and horziontal distance.
* Helicopter kick grants more vertical distance.
* Piston punch grants more vertical distance. Hitbox sizes are increased.
* Head-on assault FAF reduced to 50. Hitbox size increased.
* Feint Jump FAF reduced to 80.
* Foot Flurry FAF reduced to 75. The first 3 hits have funneling properties.


* Fsmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Usmash FAF reduced to frame 52.
* Dsmash FAF reduced to frame 48.
* Dair autocancel frame pushed to frame 40.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow angle reduced to 30. KBG decreased to compensate.
* Bthrow KBG increased to make it a kill throw around 160%.
* Dthrow KBG reduced so Dthrow -> Uair works at kill percentages.
* Gale Strike FAF reduced to 70.
* Shuriken of Light damage increased to 4/5.5/7.5/10.5.
* Blurring Blade last hit KBG increased to 115, deals an extra 10 shield damage. All hits get funneling properties.
* Airborne assault doesn't cause helplessness if started from the ground, and leaves swordfighter in tumble 30 frames after hitting the stage or the opponent. Startup frame reduced to 20 if uncharged, 50 fully charged.
* Slash Launcher FAF reduced to 45. Grants more horizontal distance.
* Chakram is active and deals damage while it is embedded into the stage, but deals only 3 damage and disappears on contact if embedded.
* Stone Scabbard grants more vertical distance. Can sweetspot the ledge form either direction.
* Skyward Sword Dash's funnel hitbox is far more generous, making it far harder to avoid the later hits.
* Hero's spin grants some horizontal distance in the air. Grounded FAF reduced to frame 70.



* Utilt FAF reduced to frame 36.
* Dtilt FAF reduced to frame 38.
* Dash attack KBG increased to 90.
* Dsmash second hit KBG increased to 115.
* Fair FAF reduced to frame 48.
* Uair FAF reduced to frame 55.
* Dair active frames changed to frames 16-20.
* Pummel sped up.
* Fthrow angle decreased to 25 degrees. KBG reduced to compensate.
* Bthrow angle decreased to 20 degrees. KBG reduced to compensate.
* Uthrow KBG increased to make it a kill throw at 170%.
* Charge Blast knockback growth increased to 52/74, making it a good kill move.
* Laser blaze BKB increased to 6.
* Flame Pillar FAF reduced to 50.
* Stealth burst knockback angle reduced to 25. KBG decreased to compensate.
* Gunner Missile KBG increased to 30 for homing missiles, 70 for super missiles.
* Lunar Launch grants more vertical distance.
* Cannon Uppercut grants more vertical distance.
* Arm Rocket moves faster, with active time being reduced to compensate.
* Echo Reflector now damages frames 1-4.
* Bomb Drop FAF reduced to 50.
* Absorbing Vortex heals 1.4* the damage ob absorbed projectiles.

I'm going to add more to this later, so hang on.

 

[atticusfinch7]

They're never going to even look at Mario, and why would they nerf Luigi even more than they already have?

I know, but it irritates me how a smash that beats shield can be so quick. If you look at Meta Knight's Fsmash, yeah it beats shield, but it's way more laggy than the ones I mentioned.

 

[Lavani]

That sounds gross.

It'd make it as long as the sword and let it hit about as far below the ledge as dtilt, that's about it. The current version has a deadzone at the sword's tip and doesn't hit below the ledge at all. It's a small quality-of-life tweak that gives it a bit more utility as well.

Spoiler: Buffs for Jigglypuff

Jab 2: FAF improved from frame 20 to frame 15.
Forward tilt: KBG 100 -> 120.
Up tilt: KBG 120 -> 80, hitbox size increased.
Up smash: Invincibility added to frames 13-19, FAF decreased from 46 to 40, startup decreased from 16 frames to 13 frames, KBG increased from 105 to 115.
Down smash: Startup decreased from frame 14 to frame 12, damage increased from 11% to 13%, KBG increased from 69 to 74.
Down air: Landing lag decreased, 30 frames -> 15 frames. Final hit now meteor smashes weakly.
Back air: Starting and active frames improved (12-13 -> 10-13), FAF decreased (45 -> 30).
Up air: Active frames changed (9-21 -> 6-18), this means that the move is active for the same amount of frames (12), it just starts and recovers sooner. FAF decreased, (45 -> 35).
Forward throw: Changed to a semi-spike angle. Knockback: 30 base/100 growth -> 15 base/105 growth.
Down throw: Knockback: 45 base/100 growth -> 37 base/90 growth. Ending lag is decreased as well, allowing it to combo until mid percents.
Back throw: Angle lowered. KBG increased: 90 -> 100.
Up throw: KBG increased: 110 -> 125, this repurposes it into a reliable KO move.
Rollout: No longer forces Jigglypuff to spin in place after hitting an opponent.
Pound: Gives Jigglypuff greater forward momentum instead of freezing her in place.
Sing: The move is now one long, very active "sleepbox" instead of three separate ones. The move starts up much faster (frame 29 -> frame 15) and ends quicker (frame 180 -> 164). Opponents are also asleep for longer.
Rest: Always triggers a Star KO upon hit.

Top tier, here we come!

Spoiler

That uair/dair are way too good and the usmash invuln is kinda excessive, but the rest of this (didn't touch B moves or throws) is pretty cool. Jab2 kill confirms into ftilt/dash attack at 80%(bad DI)/100%(whenever) near the ledge but doesn't confirm into Rest, and an easier-to-connect utilt with less KB is actually amazing for combos. I'd probably like this Jiggs a lot with uair/dair reworked, but these versions are like...a fusion of Cloud+MK uairs and a fairly safe to spam unconditional Rest confirm.

 

[E-Mann]

This might sound extremely farfetched, but this is just wishful thinking, okay?

Maybe some characters should have their model sizes scaled up or down depending on their matchups.

 

[BJN39]

Lavani you should know that Brawl Zelda Fsmash would be really dumb, like, dumber than MK's Fsmash is rn. And her's hits 8 frames sooner than his and does more damage.

But I'd vouch for FAF 50 -> 45 :^)

Spoiler: my thoughts on Zelda

Jab outermost loop hitbox size 4 -> 5

Ftilt
- FAF 38 -> 35
- give innermost hitbox a farther inward stretch coordinate to fix the blindspot (hitbox I'd=2 given z-stretch=-4 should do the trick)

Dtilt
- damage 5.5 -> 7.5
- BKB/KBG 20/120 -> 35/90 < has actual hitstun
- hitbox size 3.6 -> 4

Fsmash FAF 50 -> 45

Dsmash KBG 86/96 -> 92/102

Usmash FAF 64 -> 60

NAir
- FAF 51 -> 48
- landing lag 19 -> 16
- final hit BKB 40 -> 55

LKs
- landing lag 23/25 -> 21/23
- sweetspot size 1.9 -> 2.4
- outermost sourspot size 5 -> 6
- sourspot damage 4 -> 6
- sourspot BKB 5/5/5 -> 20/20/30
- sourspot KBG 80/80/96 -> 70/70/90
< sourspots, particularly the outermost one, become actually useable.

Grab FAF 38 -> 34
Dash Grab FAF 47 -> 44
Pivot Grab FAF 45 -> 42

Nayru's Love
- loop hit damage 2/1 -> 3/2
- final hit damage 5/4 -> 6/5
- loop hitboxes x positions and sizes both improved by 0.5 units (they are way too small vs the final hit)

Phantom Slash
- Release FAF 47 -> 43
- Phantom Health 13 -> 16
- attacks are considered melee attacks instead of projectiles (would fix issues with spot/roll dodging hit 2 after blocking hit 1 of full charge)
Full charge:
- hit 1 angle 62 -> 80
- hit 2 size 4.0/4.5/5.5 -> 4.5/5.5/6.5
- hit 2 duration 4 -> 5

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that the following will never happen (not realistically anyway), but it's basically just my take on changing the speed values. Some of the air speed buffs are in regards to improving the recoveries of certain fighters.

Spoiler

No. | Character | Walk Speed | Run Speed | Air Speed | Falling Speed
01 | Mario | 1.1 | 1.6 | 1.15 | 1.5
02 | Luigi | 1.08 | 1.5 | 0.92 | 1.25
03 | Peach | 0.86 | 1.45 | 1.19 | 1.15
04 | Bowser | 0.858 | 1.792 | 1 | 1.4
05 | Yoshi | 1.15 | 1.86 | 1.28 | 1.28
06 | Rosalina | 1.09 | 1.65 | 1.25 | 1.2
07 | Bowser Jr. | 0.88 | 1.424 | 1.08 | 1.65
08 | Wario | 0.847 | 1.5 | 1.21 | 1.61
09 | Donkey Kong | 1.3 | 1.705 | 1.15 | 1.63
10 | Diddy Kong | 1.25 | 1.824 | 0.88 | 1.75
11 | Mr. Game & Watch | 1.125 | 1.55 | 1.15 | 1.24
12 | Little Mac | 1.35 | 2.24 | 1 | 1.8
13 | Link | 1.188 | 1.4 | 0.88 | 1.6
14 | Zelda | 0.87 | 1.3 | 1.08 | 1.22
15 | Sheik | 1.4 | 2.02 | 0.88 | 1.75
16 | Ganondorf | 0.73 | 1.2 | 0.8 | 1.65
17 | Toon Link | 1.23 | 1.75 | 1.14 | 1.28
18 | Samus | 1.062 | 1.51 | 1.03 | 1.25
19 | Zero Suit Samus | 1.4 | 2.1 | 1.2 | 1.7
20 | Pit | 1.2 | 1.663 | 0.9 | 1.48
21 | Palutena | 1.23 | 1.9 | 1.14 | 1.4
22 | Marth | 1.5 | 1.785 | 1.02 | 1.58
23 | Ike | 0.87 | 1.5 | 1.08 | 1.65
24 | Robin | 0.891 | 1.15 | 1 | 1.5
25 | Duck Hunt | 1.16 | 1.63 | 1.1 | 1.55
26 | Kirby | 0.93 | 1.57 | 1.04 | 1.23
27 | King Dedede | 0.98 | 1.36 | 0.7 | 1.95
28 | Meta Knight | 1.19 | 1.9 | 0.8 | 1.56
29 | Fox | 1.45 | 2.2 | 0.96 | 2.05
30 | Falco | 1.28 | 1.92 | 0.93 | 1.8
31 | Pikachu | 1.24 | 1.855 | 0.92 | 1.55
32 | Charizard | 1.21 | 2 | 1.09 | 1.4
33 | Lucario | 1.05 | 1.5 | 1.1 | 1.56
34 | Jigglypuff | 0.7 | 1.1 | 1.35 | 0.95
35 | Greninja | 1.43 | 2.08 | 1.18 | 1.85
36 | R.O.B. | 1.122 | 1.568 | 1.08 | 1.6
37 | Ness | 0.875 | 1.465 | 0.96 | 1.31
38 | Captain Falcon | 0.94 | 2.32 | 1.18 | 1.85
39 | Villager | 1.04 | 1.27 | 0.94 | 1.32
40 | Olimar | 0.9 | 1.47 | 0.82 | 1.3
41 | Wii Fit Trainer | 1.166 | 1.7 | 0.97 | 1.3
42 | Shulk | 1.1 | 1.52 | 1.06 | 1.5
43 | Dr. Mario | 0.957 | 1.392 | 1.0005 | 1.5
44 | Dark Pit | 1.2 | 1.663 | 0.9 | 1.48
45 | Lucina | 1.5 | 1.785 | 1.02 | 1.58
46 | PAC-MAN | 1.045 | 1.52 | 1.04 | 1.35
47 | Mega Man | 1.078 | 1.456 | 1.1 | 1.8
48 | Sonic | 1.4 | 3.5 | 1.15 | 1.45
49 | Mewtwo | 1.21 | 2.05 | 1.25 | 1.68
50 | Lucas | 0.82 | 1.5 | 1.05 | 1.37
51 | Roy | 1.15 | 1.95 | 1.24 | 1.8
52 | Ryu | 0.75 | 1.6 | 1.12 | 1.6
53a | Cloud (Normal) | 1.1 | 1.97 | 1.1 | 1.68
53b | Cloud (Limit Break) | 1.265 | 2.167 | 1.32 | 1.848
54 | Corrin | 1.2 | 1.5 | 1.15 | 1.65
55 | Bayonetta | 0.9 | 1.6 | 0.97 | 1.77
56 | Mii Brawler | 1.15 | 1.72 | 1.2 | 1.7
57 | Mii Swordfighter | 1.188 | 1.5 | 0.97 | 1.6
58 | Mii Gunner | 1.05 | 1.3 | 1.05 | 1.45

 

[Bowserboy3]

I just want to point out that Luma's moves are designed to have specific angles and high BKB and low KBG, so simply saying "Reduce Knockback on them" would be counter to their design.

This fantastic post explains why, for example, Rosalina and Luma's Up Air, probably won't be changed:

http://smashboards.com/threads/and-then-suddenly-1-1-5-patch-discussion.433163/page-12#post-21013020

 

[MarioMeteor]

It'd make it as long as the sword and let it hit about as far below the ledge as dtilt, that's about it. The current version has a deadzone at the sword's tip and doesn't hit below the ledge at all. It's a small quality-of-life tweak that gives it a bit more utility as well.

Does it really? I knew that it didn't hit below the ledge but I was under the impression that the tip of Flare Blade was merely a sourspot, not a dead zone.

Top tier, here we come!

Spoiler

That uair/dair are way too good and the usmash invuln is kinda excessive, but the rest of this (didn't touch B moves or throws) is pretty cool. Jab2 kill confirms into ftilt/dash attack at 80%(bad DI)/100%(whenever) near the ledge but doesn't confirm into Rest, and an easier-to-connect utilt with less KB is actually amazing for combos. I'd probably like this Jiggs a lot with uair/dair reworked, but these versions are like...a fusion of Cloud+MK uairs and a fairly safe to spam unconditional Rest confirm.

Up air would still be just as unreliable a combo tool as it is now, I just made the move faster, because it's way too slow for its own good. Jigglypuff's up smash is pathetic, and is quite possibly the worst inthe whole game, and considering the move's lackluster range, I don't think adding invincibility would be too much. Admittedly, the down air might be a bit much, but she needs something to combo into Rest.

- General increase in range on all of his sword attacks.
- Falling speed decreased from 1.8 to 1.73.
- Weight increased to 100.
- Gravity decreased from 0.114 to 0.1.
- Down tilt angle changed to 60°, giving the move combo potential.
- Down smash KBG: 85 -> 90 and FAF: 63 -> 60.
- Improved autocancel windows on all aerials.
- Better hitbox placement on down air to make landing the meteor hitbox easier.
- Up air KBG: 80 -> 70. Improves its combo ability but removes what little KO power it had.
- Forward throw: Angle raised slightly, adding some combo options but removing others.
- Down throw: Hitstun increased.
- Back throw: Ending lag decreased.

 

[Tizio Random]

Other than nerfs and buffs on characters who needs them, I only want to see this:

• Rage now only affects smash attacks and only the last hit for those who have multi-hits.

Sakurai wants us to use more smash attacks, now we have a reason to.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Other than nerfs and buffs on characters who needs them, I only want to see this:

• Rage now only affects smash attacks and only the last hit for those who have multi-hits.

Sakurai wants us to use more smash attacks, now we have a reason to.

See, the problem with this, is that in the transition to this game, moves have universally received reduced knockback. This is because of the rage mechanic. Simply removing rage, or limiting it to just smash attacks would result in the cast having universally weaker moves because they have reduced knockback. For them to balance that out, they'd have to go through almost every move in the game, and increase it's knockback slightly to compensate.

Rage can be annoying, but simply removing it would create a slow and weak game.

 

[Tizio Random]

See, the problem with this, is that in the transition to this game, moves have universally received reduced knockback. This is because of the rage mechanic. Simply removing rage, or limiting it to just smash attacks would result in the cast having universally weaker moves because they have reduced knockback. For them to balance that out, they'd have to go through almost every move in the game, and increase it's knockback slightly to compensate.

Rage can be annoying, but simply removing it would create a slow and weak game.

And I agree with this, in fact I think that rage is beneficial but it's too janky as of now. Maybe they could just remove it for multi-hits attacks excluding the last hit? Also because that is the major problem.

 

[Bowserboy3]

And I agree with this, in fact I think that rage is beneficial but it's too janky as of now. Maybe they could just remove it for multi-hits attacks excluding the last hit? Also because that is the major problem.

One thing I saw above from user E Eugene Wang was a suggestion that Rage (and staling) only effects KBG, as opposed to both BKB and KBG. While this might not fix all the problems regarding it, it would probably be a step in the right direction (for example, a Mario with Rage killing Sonic off the top at 0% with the first hit of his reverse Up B probably wouldn't happen until Sonic has a fair amount of damage on him).

 

[Bricky]

I personally think that the best solution to rage jank is to have it not affect moves with set knockback. Most weird interactions with rage (multihits, Ike's Aether instant kill) are from set knockback moves.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I don't know too much about balancing but I'll pitch in a few ideas for
General
- Slightly increased KB threshold to break Tough Guy
- The list of things TG works on, customs excluded, is pathetically short. TG would be buffed enough to provide a little more super armor against moves like Kirby's multi-hit jabs or Sheik's needles.

Specials
- Fire Breath:
- Hitbox becomes active on frame 18, instead of 23.
- FAF is decreased to 55 from 78.
- Fire Breath is mediocre as both a projectile and as a defensive move. It has its moments of usefulness, but more often than not puts Bowser in harm's way, especially since it can simply be jumped over and quickly punished. Decreasing startup and ending lag would, hopefully, make the move a little more useful.

- Flying Slam:
- Increased range on grab hitbox (Maybe to about Jab 2's range?), angle is fixed at 60 degrees.
OR
- KBG Increased to 70(or 75?) from 60, angle is fixed at 60 degrees.
- The issue with Flying Slam (or slang term - "Klaw") is that our normal grab outclasses it almost entirely with the exception of frame data, where Klaw beats normal grab by a staggering 1 frame. We get more reward off normal grabs, kill significantly earlier with normal grabs, grabs don't murder our momentum and pivot grab is basically a black hole. With the exception of canceling landing lag after free-falling or after a SHAD, the time when Klaw is a better choice than grab is quite rare - typically when rage or consecutive failures to succeed at U-Throw followups cause the Koo-Pah to be reliant on an air dodge read. Granted, I understand platforms are extremely useful to Klaw, but again - the same goes for grabs. Regarding the fixed angle, I've found that Klaw's launch angle does slightly vary, and this can make killing with it a little harder than it needs to be. All in all, Klaw is okay, but I honestly think it could be made so much better.

EDIT: - Whirling Fortress:
- Reduced landing lag on Aerial Fortress landing.
- kuroganehammer doesn't have the frames of landing lag at the end of aerial Fortress but as atticusfinch7 pointed out to me, it severely cripples Bowser's ability to mixup his recovery. The landing lag is high enough for big moves like Bowser's side Smash to be freely used as Bowser gets back up.

- OPTIONAL - Bowser Bomb(Grounded):
- Initial hit from horns have fixed horizontal knockback.
- Not too sure if fixed horizontal knockback actually possible to slap in the game, nor is this buff necessary. It's a real killjoy when it's a close match and rage + DI ruins what would have been a confirmed kill for Bowser. Just a little nitpicky thing.

No changes to Aerials

Ground attacks:
- Down Smash:
- Pulling windbox during active hitboxes
- Down Smash doesn't get a lot of us compared to U-Smash or Side Smash - it doesn't have a passive bonus like U-Smash's shellguard + shockwave, nor does it have the devastating raw power of Side Smash. It can be decent for catching rolls or a possible edgeguard mixup, but other than that, it doesn't have much. A windbox that pulls opponents in might give D-smash some added benefits. The windbox would have a relatively small AoE, roughly a third a character length from where Bowser stands at minimum or half a character length from where Bowser is standing at maximum, if that makes any sense.

OPTIONAL - Side Smash:
- Shield Push/ KB on shield increased
- FAF reduced to 60-65 from 70.
- Again, a small thing that would be nice to have but isn't high in demand by Bowser players. Just give Bowser's Side Smash a shield push similar to how Ganondorf's Side Smash treats shields so that it could be a tad more safe on shield.

If any of my changes seem overly drastic, I wouldn't mind if somebody helped me alter them to make them a bit less drastic. Smash balance isn't my forte, haha.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't know too much about balancing but I'll pitch in a few ideas for

No changes to Aerials

This is arguably what Bowser needs the most. At the least, he would significantly benefit from his Nair starting up a few frames earlier, and most importantly, having far less lending lag, to something of around 17ish frames at the least. Bowser struggles landing, so having a less laggy aerial that covers him as he is coming in to land would be greatly appreciated.

As a secondary change, a 3 or so more frames in which to auto cancel his Forward Air would go a long way into giving him a slightly safer approach option.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

This is arguably what Bowser needs the most. At the least, he would significantly benefit from his Nair starting up a few frames earlier, and most importantly, having far less lending lag, to something of around 17ish frames at the least. Bowser struggles landing, so having a less laggy aerial that covers him as he is coming in to land would be greatly appreciated.

As a secondary change, a 3 or so more frames in which to auto cancel his Forward Air would go a long way into giving him a slightly safer approach option.

I feel like landing difficulties are a fundamental weakness of Bowser, given he is not just a super heavyweight, but the heaviest character in the game. While I can understand why buffs to aerials and reducing landing lag would be a significant buff, Bowser already gets enormous reward off of his grabs. He isn't a character that really needs to be in the air.

EDIT: 17 frames on N-Air is too low. Zard has 20 frames of landing lag on its N-Air and it is supposed to be faster than Bowser overall.

 

[atticusfinch7]

I don't know too much about balancing but I'll pitch in a few ideas for
General
- Slightly increased KB threshold to break Tough Guy
- The list of things TG works on, customs excluded, is pathetically short. TG would be buffed enough to provide a little more super armor against moves like Kirby's multi-hit jabs or Sheik's needles.

Specials
- Fire Breath:
- Hitbox becomes active on frame 18, instead of 23.
- FAF is decreased to 55 from 78.
- Fire Breath is mediocre as both a projectile and as a defensive move. It has its moments of usefulness, but more often than not puts Bowser in harm's way, especially since it can simply be jumped over and quickly punished. Decreasing startup and ending lag would, hopefully, make the move a little more useful.

- Flying Slam:
- Increased range on grab hitbox (Maybe to about Jab 2's range?), angle is fixed at 60 degrees.
OR
- KBG Increased to 70(or 75?) from 60, angle is fixed at 60 degrees.
- The issue with Flying Slam (or slang term - "Klaw") is that our normal grab outclasses it almost entirely with the exception of frame data, where Klaw beats normal grab by a staggering 1 frame. We get more reward off normal grabs, kill significantly earlier with normal grabs, grabs don't murder our momentum and pivot grab is basically a black hole. With the exception of canceling landing lag after free-falling or after a SHAD, the time when Klaw is a better choice than grab is quite rare - typically when rage or consecutive failures to succeed at U-Throw followups cause the Koo-Pah to be reliant on an air dodge read. Granted, I understand platforms are extremely useful to Klaw, but again - the same goes for grabs. Regarding the fixed angle, I've found that Klaw's launch angle does slightly vary, and this can make killing with it a little harder than it needs to be. All in all, Klaw is okay, but I honestly think it could be made so much better.

- OPTIONAL - Bowser Bomb(Grounded):
- Initial hit from horns have fixed horizontal knockback.
- Not too sure if fixed horizontal knockback actually possible to slap in the game, nor is this buff necessary. It's a real killjoy when it's a close match and rage + DI ruins what would have been a confirmed kill for Bowser. Just a little nitpicky thing.

No changes to Aerials

Ground attacks:
- Down Smash:
- Pulling windbox during active hitboxes
- Down Smash doesn't get a lot of us compared to U-Smash or Side Smash - it doesn't have a passive bonus like U-Smash's shellguard + shockwave, nor does it have the devastating raw power of Side Smash. It can be decent for catching rolls or a possible edgeguard mixup, but other than that, it doesn't have much. A windbox that pulls opponents in might give D-smash some added benefits. The windbox would have a relatively small AoE, roughly a third a character length from where Bowser stands at minimum or half a character length from where Bowser is standing at maximum, if that makes any sense.

OPTIONAL - Side Smash:
- Shield Push/ KB on shield increased
- FAF reduced to 60-65 from 70.
- Again, a small thing that would be nice to have but isn't high in demand by Bowser players. Just give Bowser's Side Smash a shield push similar to how Ganondorf's Side Smash treats shields so that it could be a tad more safe on shield.

If any of my changes seem overly drastic, I wouldn't mind if somebody helped me alter them to make them a bit less drastic. Smash balance isn't my forte, haha.

Surprised you didn't mention landing lag of upB. Bowser has one of the worst on-stage recovery options, which really hinders his ability to mix-up his recovery. DK's upB goes way farther and yet has less endlag.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Surprised you didn't mention landing lag of upB. Bowser has one of the worst on-stage recovery options, which really hinders his ability to mix-up his recovery. DK's upB goes way farther and yet has less endlag.

Good point. There's enough landing lag for on-stage Up-B that another Bowser can side-smash you freely. I suppose altering Fortress didn't occur to me because I use grounded Fortress so much and, more often than not, I don't find myself needing to recover high. I'll make an edit of it in my post.

 

[LancerStaff]

>Uair: Remove first active frame.
~This removes the body hitboxes he currently uses to approach with, making the move unreliable at best for approaching. Perhaps change one frame of the weak hit to a strong hit to compensate.

>Limit Cross Slash: Make the move unsafe on shield, but remove the easy shield drop > powershield window thing. Preferably in a way that makes it kill later.

>Nerf recovery somehow, probably airspeed and double jump height.



>Reduce initial dash speed and dash acceleration, massively increase skid animation.
~This not only makes him easier to catch without ruining the whole "fastest thing alive" thing, this makes him control more like he does in his games. I mean, really, Sonic could never go from zero to a hundred in a split second without boosting.

>Spindash and Spinboost: Make the hitboxes low priority like Bayo's smashes? Maybe? Not sure how badly that'd effect the moves. Either way they should fix the BSBS thing.



>Rapid Jab: Make Dark Pit's match Pit's, then make them worth using somehow. More consistent, more damage, whatever works. Currently the move is garbage.

>Guardian Orbitars: Reduce endlag significantly, add invinciblity hurtboxes (?) above and below the Pits, let the move slide off ledges.
~Currently they do a good job of shoving people offstage for cheesy gimps, but not so much for reflecting or guarding. 34 frames of endlag is rather excessive... As far as I'm aware they're the most laggy reflector besides maybe the PK kid's Fsmashes, and those are Fsmashes. 20 frames of endlag would be nice without potentially being noob killers or whatever they're concerned with. 15 would be even better. The invinciblity would help to keep from getting Uair'd by Fox and the like, while being able to slide off ledges would make the move more useful for retreating to the ledge.

>Dair: Additional active frame on the end of the move, probably similar knockback to the previous hitbox.
~Semi realistic dream buff. Currently the sword can end up going through the opponent without any effect, and this hitbox would end up pretty high on Pit, about hair level. The move actually functions a lot like Corrin's Fair does already, and this would make it even more so.

QoL changes:

Spoiler

>Improve autocancels on Fair, Bair, and Uair by one frame, and Dair by two.
~Besides a negligible safety increase, this lets the Pits do FHFF Fairs and Bairs without potentially crash landing, and do fullhop autocancel Uairs and Dairs on Smashvile's platform. Already works with most other platforms. Dair and Uair have really tight autocancel windows too, and this would make it a good deal easier to do without majorly effecting anything.

>Remove deadzone on Fair.

>A second kill throw, Bthrow or preferably Uthrow, would be nice. Not as strong as Fthrow, but enough to matter.
~Being able to kill with a throw regardless of position would help with consistency issues, but not be overpowered because he already has one.

>Fix Dark Pit's animations for his pummel on 3DS and his Fair on both systems.

 

[SkippyJ]

As a former JIGGLYPUFF main

What we NEED (to be a reasonably designed character):

-INCREASED AIR MOBILITY.
Jiggs is by far the overall "slowest" character in the game, imo. Extremely slow run and walk speed, extremely slow fall speed, no projectile (which means we HAVE to chase our opponent down, unlike other slow characters like robin), short/slow full hop and no UpB (hard to cover vertical distance quickly), and aerial mobility that is not quick enough to compensate for all of this. Yoshi has aerial mobility that is far superior to ours and he has a ton of things going for him outside of his air game. Jiggs air game is pretty much all she has, and it's not even that good. Increased air speed would allow her a better neutral (approach easier, safer on shield) give her a better advantaged state (chain aerials easier, press advantage/ chase down easier), and a better disadvantaged state (easier time landing, getting back to stage, and escaping pressure)

-UP TILT HITBOX SIZE INCREASE
This one is less necessary and I'm tempted to put it in want not need, but god damn. Up tilt is one of jiggs few good ground moves (next to jab), with up tilt > rest being true at low percents, and it killing at high percent, its one of the only things she's got going for her up close early and late game. But by up close, i mean REALLY close. The hit box on this thing is abysmal, they practically have to be touching you, and usually the only reason they'd be that close is to grab, and most grabs are faster, so. Every time I hear talk of jiggs buffs by actual jiggs mains, this is mentioned by nearly everyone, so I think it's safe to put it above my personal wants.

What I WANT (if we are to be competitively viable on a high level, or at least closer to it):

-UP AIR END LAG AND KBG DECREASE
I see potential in this move. It's nice because at low percents you can FF Uair rest, but that's not really what she needs. Jiggs, a character that can basically fly, actually really struggles to juggle, or against any character above her, actually. This is in part because of her slow speed.. Easily juked out and landed against, more likely to catch a fair or bair then to catch an u-air and continue getting juggled.. And also in part because of her lack of range, most dairs beat her up air.. But the final straw for me is that it is predictable as hell, and neither fast not strong enough to make up for it. If a jigglypuff is jumping up below you you can pretty much know she's going for an up air. You can air dodge and punish practically on reaction with how slow she is. And then if you do get hit by it.. It doesn't really matter, because there are no follow ups and it's very unlikely that they'll get it again and be able to continue the juggle. SO I PROPOSE, cut down the end lag and the kbg, that way it's still hard to hit because of its startup and lack of range, but less high risk and more rewarding on hit, comboing into rest at higher percents (small window for kill confirms on mid>heavy weights)

-INCREASED DOWN TILT RANGE
There is Litterally no reason to use down tilt right now. Jab has great range, is way faster, and has great mixup potential. Down tilt looks like it should reach further, but it doesn't.

-SING REDUCED STARTUP
Sing is pretty much useless as is. Even ledge cancel is too slow because you have to do it from a reactable hight in order for the hit box to come out

-ROLLOUT REDUCED STARTUP
Again, a useless move. At least make it so that you don't have to charge it for 2 seconds to use

 

[MarioMeteor]

- Witch Twist startup (frame 4 -> 7) and ending lag (FAF 29 frames -> 34 frames, aerial version only) increased.
- Aerial After Burner Kick hitstun decreased, making it more necessary to react to the opponent's next move.


- Decreased base knockback on Luma's up tilt and down air, removing the former's ability to KO opponents at 0%.


- Forward air FAF: 35 -> 39. Landing lag also increased to 15 frames, from 10.


- Boost Kick KBG: 209 -> 194.

 

[DPKdebator]

I don't think the Doc has any changes suggested, so...

• Dashing speed: 1.312 -> 1.5
• Megavitamins IASA on frame 40
• Super Sheet does more damage: 7.84% -> 12%
• Super Jump Punch has increased distance
• Dr. Tornado deals more damage: 8% -> 18%
• Dr. Tornado travels higher and takes less button presses to gain height
• Neutral attack deals more damage: 8.96% -> 13%
• Down aerial autocancels in a short hop, and has less landing lag: 21 -> 16
• Back throw has increased knockback: 70 base/60 growth -> 82 base/72 growth
  
• Megavitamins deal more damage: 5.6% -> 7%
• Neutral aerial does more damage: 5.6% clean/8.96% late -> 7% clean/10% late
• Pummel does more damage: 3.64% -> 4%
• Back aerial does more damage: 13.44% clean/7.84% late -> 15% clean/8.5% late

I kind of stole most of these from the Unofficial Balance Committee... but they have some very nice ideas for how to make Doc a little better. I changed a few things and added some things of my own to give him a larger buff...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can probably bring up a few things that Palutena needs...

1. Increased knockback for f-tilt. F-tilt's startup lag pretty much warrants buffing its knockback to make it worth using.
2. Increased knockback for Counter. Despite having a 1.3x multiplier, Palutena's Counter currently lacks the knockback strength that most other Counters have, and very few attacks are able to deal 40%+ damage without customizations, which makes 1-hit KO chances quite small in a defaults only match.

 

[Bowserboy3]

- Witch Twist startup (frame 4 -> 7) and ending lag (FAF 29 frames -> 34 frames, aerial version only) increased.
- Aerial After Burner Kick hitstun decreased, making it more necessary to react to the opponent's next move.

These changes would totally ruin Bayonetta's design.

The best change if you ask me, is to halve the height Bayonetta and the opponent rise in the air when she hits with her Downward After Burner Kick. This would make her kill combos almost impossible to do, but not change her combo heavy nature.

Perhaps lowering the damage output by 0.5% or so on certain moves, such as Fair 1 and 2, DABK, Dtilt etc, could also make her combos that tiny bit less damaging.

However, a frame 5 or 6 Witch Twist wouldn't hurt. Frame 4 is absurd for an OoS move that hits both sides.

 

[MarioMeteor]

These changes would totally ruin Bayonetta's design.

The best change if you ask me, is to halve the height Bayonetta and the opponent rise in the air when she hits with her Downward After Burner Kick. This would make her kill combos almost impossible to do, but not change her combo heavy nature.

Perhaps lowering the damage output by 0.5% or so on certain moves, such as Fair 1 and 2, DABK, Dtilt etc, could also make her combos that tiny bit less damaging.

However, a frame 5 or 6 Witch Twist wouldn't hurt. Frame 4 is absurd for an OoS move that hits both sides.

Please, I sincerely doubt that those two changes would "ruin Bayonetta's design" unless by design you mean carrying people to kingdom come with one combo. I think they're quite reasonable. She remains a combo-oriented character, but just a combo-oriented character that's not better than the entire cast.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Please, I sincerely doubt that those two changes would "ruin Bayonetta's design" unless by design you mean carrying people to kingdom come with one combo. I think they're quite reasonable. She remains a combo-oriented character, but just a combo-oriented character that's not better than the entire cast.

Bayonetta is supposed to be an overwhelming combo heavy character. Believe it or not, she struggles to KO if she can't carry you off the top. Just removing the kill combos in the fashion I suggested for example would automatically make her a lot worse.

 

[E-Mann]

- Increase luma respawn timer by ~20%
- Reduce luma base knockback growth
- Down B can no longer absorb Ness and Lucas's recoveries

- Decreased base knockback on Luma's up tilt and down air, removing the former's ability to KO opponents at 0%.

As a Rosalina player myself, I approve of these changes.