CPU Lvl 8 vs. CPU Lvl 9

[MegaSilver]

Dunno, if this IS the right place, but its in part for getting into competitive play and playing against human players...

I had a discussion with someone recently where they were saying basically

"If you have to play CPU players to train, don't bother with level 9 CPU players."

The idea was that the lvl 9 computer characters are created in a way where they're like, beyond human. They know your inputs as you do them, so you're training against something you'll never have to go up against in real life.

Now, this does kind of make sense to me because I've notice when I've tried to attack a level 9 CPU player while they're falling, they magically happen to dodge every attack perfectly in air every time. I always attributed this to a dodge system that I wasn't a fan of, being more a Melee dodge system fan, but is this whole thing I was told true?

I was told just play against level 8 character if you HAVE to train against the computer, obviously with real people preferred (which is a no brainer).

I like to think of myself as at least a very good player, definitely no pro, but this is the first I've heard of this and it does kinda make sense. Anyone have any input on this?

 

[TheJolteon]

Level 9 cpu's have beyond better reaction time than any human. They know when the attack comes out before you do it. You can't go for a 50/50 because they will always airdodge. Spikes can never happen unless there in the middle of a move. However they can't DI for crap so yeah.

 

[MegaSilver]

So are level 8 guys better to go up against even though they'll be easier or are just they too easy? I mean, I can't remember the last time I lost 1 to 1 in a level 9 match, but I can't beat two level 9 guys very often. Two level 8 guys I almost always win.

 

[yttik]

play against a level 1 or use training mode, level 8s will still develop bad habits.

 

[Jaxas]

Basically, it depends on what you're practicing.

If you're just playing, I tend to use Lv7 CPUs.
If you're trying to practice things like safety (for example, against Out of Shield options like Usmash), Lv9 Mario is what you wanna fight.
If you're trying to practice 50/50s, mix up the level of CPU I guess - not all of them will always dodge your move after the input like the Lv9s will.

If you're trying to practice comboing against an opponent who actually DI's... you probably need a person for that.

I think @Shaya said this, but basically "you don't try to learn the game from playing CPUs, you try to prove you can play perfect against CPUs in various conditions you set up yourself"

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Here's how the AI works.

When you do anything, it randomly decides if it will get hit or not, and it randomly decides when it can hit you how rewarding of a hit it will go for. Lower levels are more likely to allow you to hit them and more likely to choose to hit you with stronger attacks. Of course, the AI in all cases has 1 frame reaction times to make these decisions.

The AI also has a lot of other little patterns that are completely inhuman. For instance, with any given character, it always recovers the exact same way every time, usually a high recovery. This is not vaguely similar to how a human behaves off-stage. In fact, the AI's natural tendencies in most situations are completely inhuman; you're setting yourself up to play wrong if you try to really play with the AI at all.

What this means is that the AI, regardless of level, plays in a completely inhuman way. If you do a tricky set-up with a one frame escape window, the AI is equally likely to avoid being hit by that as it is to avoid walk up fsmash. Some people claim lower levels are better since they just pretend that the AI won't get hit by walk up fsmash (even though it will) and enjoy that it's relatively unlikely to escape the tricky stuff, but really, playing the AI just re-enforces bad habits. When you're unlocking stuff, just raw fsmash over and over to beat the AI easily (highest difficulty doesn't matter; this tactic is always extremely dominating against the AI); don't even try to play like it's real since it's useless practice. When it comes to actual improvement, only humans offer anything at all. Even the laggiest online is better than any AI play; I think it's best to treat this game as though it doesn't have AI at all.

 

[elmike]

Here's how the AI works.

but really, playing the AI just re-enforces bad habits. When you're unlocking stuff, just raw fsmash over and over to beat the AI easily (highest difficulty doesn't matter; this tactic is always extremely dominating against the AI); don't even try to play like it's real since it's useless practice. When it comes to actual improvement, only humans offer anything at all. Even the laggiest online is better than any AI play; I think it's best to treat this game as though it doesn't have AI at all.

I have to disagree here. I think that if you dont have friends to practice offline, you should combine everything.

For glory is helpful because you are playing against humans of all types. Save the replays of the matches you lose or won just by little or by "luck", analyze them, and practice to correct your bad habits (spacing, approaching, etc..) in both tranning and versus a LV9 Mario CPU (which IMO is the best CPU by far).

If you analyze your replays and become aware of your bad habits, practicing against a LVL 9 CPU is good. Practice your stuff in tranning, and then go against LV9 Mario CPU. Mario will always punish you OOS your bad spaced approaches, so you can practice that. It will also force you to act quick to punish his "mistakes".
If you only practice in for glory, the lag will force you to adapt to a certain play style that is based on the lag. I believe you can become a good player just using trainning and for glory, but i think lv9 mario cpu can also help you with some stuff that trainning and for glory cant. You just need to have your goals defined before the match.

 

[ghWyPakDzVvPncx76h2J]

Here's what I can say about Level 9 CPUs being someone that practices against them constantly. If you roll back they absolutely punish you. Just put a Ganondorf, Falcon, or ZSS to level 9. They trap you. Ganon and Falcon immediately down b and ZSS just runs up and grabs. There is a huge misconception that they are bad to practice against, but everything a CPU can do a Human could do that to you in a match, and when you have tensions high and people just waiting to capitalize on whatever they can then it becomes serious. Practicing against CPUs I'd say is much better than playing For Glory, I'd take CPUs over For Glory any day and even one of the top players Mew2king mostly practiced against CPUs. I'd rather be playing against Level 9 then 8 and here's why. Yes level 9s do airdodge, but anyone could easily read an attack then airdodge, but an important part you can practice each and every time to perfection is timing your attacks so you can attack right after they get out of airdodge like throw out a sex kick at the right time and they will get hit afterwards. CPUs are cheap, and I absolutely just love it, if you try to play nothing but a projectile game they will throw projectiles back and this is where you can really practice in the neutral and just wait for them to mis-space a projectile then punish. The entire process with a level 9 cpu also comes down heavily to spacing. If you're just a bit off they punish it, with this entire process you really get to know when you are vulnerable and punish-able and you can then adapt from there to improve your approaching options and the best part of level 9 cpus is being able to practice your safe on shield options because they are what will confirm whether or not your attacks are safe on shield and if you aim to just be absolutely technical and perfect yourself in every way possible then cpus are the way to go. Technical savvy people like myself do not practice for glory that much because just look at my main, do you think he is fun to use in for glory at all? If you want to go for the most human like or most random then play against level 7. If you want to practice combos then level 6 is the way to go. Anything below level 6 is utter special spam with no merits to making them worth playing against at all that you otherwise would not get from a level 6. Level 8 is a combination of the randomness of level 7, but not to the extremes of level 9. Level 9 is the cpu level you want to choose if you want to perfect yourself in every way possible. Level 8 is the dark horse. In my experience with level 9s I have pretty much made myself to getting onto the reaction times, and fighting it gets me on my toes. It's just great and you feel rewarded for punishing then getting that combo after all those careful spacing and trying to the play the neutral.

Also keep in mind they do get better after updates with more combos and all of that. It really comes down to preference. If you have the resources to play against lots of people locally then by all means do it, if you don't like for glory then I'd just recommend you fight CPUs instead, after all what's better? Playing opponents at your own adjust-able comfort with no lag or having to deal with the smallest fractions of lag while having to fight only a flat stage in a meta environment that comes down to who can get each other on the ledge first then take advantage of lag to read every get up option or taking advantage of lag to punish an opponent for landing. It's not that much of a healthy environment and is pretty flawed, I play it seldomly, but don't take it too seriously--never take it seriously. Just for the love of the community do not say fighting against cpus is bad, just do not.

 

[Simperheve]

I practice against Lvl 9 CPUs constantly because I absolutely hate the lag levels in FG. I think it's better to practice in an environment where your inputs are always executed without delays created by bad connections. I mean, how many times are you going to go to a tournament where they add an arbitrary "1 second input delay" rule to each game? Also, Stage selection is Omega Random in FG so you can't practice platform play in stages such as battlefield.

My logic for playing LVL 9s in particular is because of their inhuman reflexes. If you can do something against the godly future seeing powers of a LVL 9 CPU, it'll probably work on a person (DI not included).

 

[Zeriora]

I use Lvl 7. They work like most FG players. Level 9 seem to be superhuman smash attack spammers, don't fight them.

 

[Luigi player]

A 'good' reason to play against CPUs is to practice (offline) techskill. Of course it's only reasonable if you don't have another human to play with.

Since you don't really want to play against the cpu it's usually at a lower level than 9, because level 9s kinda force you to play certains ways that work against them, because their inhuman reactions make a lot of stuff not work.
Every time they're in the air and you try to attack them they airdodge perfectly. I once had I think MKs nair as an edgeguard against one and he airdodged of course, I fell down with him to hit him and he airdodged every move perfectly until he died at the bottom. This shows the only way to hit them is if you follow their movement and have super quick moves that end fast enough to punish the airdodge or to have moves that last a very long time to catch their airdodge endinglag. You can not wait for them to airdodge, because they'll only do that if you attack them. This basically means they are untouchable except for quick or long lasting hitbox moves like I said. So a good way to counter this is to wait for them to be right above the ground, throw an attack out to force their airdodge and then attack them while in landinglag (they even try to land directly above you as well, and if you don't input a move they'll just footstool you).

So yeah, they kinda force you to play a certain way which is not really want you should want. This is why lower levels are often seen as better. You basically just choose to play against a cpu so you don't just hit a sandbag that does nothing at all because it gives much less options for you to do anything (just think about the sandbag in the wifi waiting room; not too much you can do).
So with cpus you get bored to death a bit slower while practicing techskill and you get to use more attacks etc. It can help to practice combos, but of course they won't DI. I tried practicing some Luigi stuff against Sheik to see what works best after the nerfs and I was always able to dthrow -> fair -> fair them at mid % so I thought this was a good thing to do, completely forgetting that it can be DI'd backwards so fair could even miss if I move forward too much, which happened against real humans at the next tourney which kinda threw me off. So really, you don't get too many mixups out of this, just raw techskill practice. CPUs definitely shouldn't take too much of a big part of your training and always mix it up with humans even if it's just wifi.

Lately I like playing against cpus more (not more than wifi against humans of course; just more than previously), because wifi lag can be super annoying and offline techskill practice is really important, especially when having a tourney coming up that you're planning to attend.
Some people played against lvl 1 or 3s in Brawl, with 99 stocks just to polish up their offline techskill some days before they're going to tourneys. I did something like that too sometimes.

Besides cpus at lower levels, training mode can help you find when stuff can work if you don't have a human to try it with. Playing around in training mode can really benefit your combo and punish game, just be sure to not be to gullible to it's combo counter when things don't combo, and keep in mind it can be DI'd and that rage will always make some difference. Make use of the "hold L to continue time" thing to be able to control both characters sometimes to see if some things work (like airdodging out of combos).

That said, I do play against cpus level at 9. Probably just because I like the challenge. I often just try to play like they were humans, getting frustrated at their airdodging all the time and inhumanic broken things they can do and then trying to adapt just to beat them. Of course I see it more as 'techskill practice' than 'learning how to play against someone'. Sometimes I want to try specific things where cpus are just stopping me since they're like always appraoching and don't give you time to try out anything, in which case I switch to training mode.

 

[outfoxd]

I been using 9s as a warmup to train a mindset, basically to get in the habit of playing safe once i take a comfortable lead since I've learned i have a headstrong rushing in mentality. Once i take a 2 stock lead on the ai (stock set to 99) i go to ladder. The computer punishes bad spacing or options well enough i at least get to learn how to maintain a lead with safe options before jumping right back to pvp.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

A lot of times to warm up, I alternate between level 2 or 3 and level 9 CPU. Just bump it up to 5 or 6 stocks. Level 1s I find essentially to be essentially training dummies, so I'd prefer to have a moving target.

For level 2s & 3s, I practice my hitboxes and my combos, and for level 9s, I practice spacing safely against an opponent that I know will correctly shield and punish.

 

[cmbsfm]

I fight CPUs to get an understanding of certain characters. I'm still not that familiar with certain characters, so fighting them as a cpu helps me out. Plus, it's convientient to just click Smash and set up a match.

 

[Treedot]

I've always been told to avoid Level 9s, so when I train I use either 7 or 8 because they seem closer to actual human response time and DI, for like a mid level player like myself. If you are a high level player I suggest training against other people around your level and not CPUs. It's too bad For Glory sucks.