CPU Creator Mode

[BuSHiDo]

I'm guessing this kind of A.I. technology wouldn't be around for another generation or two of consoles, but I always thought it would be cool if you could go into a mode where you play let's say 10 different CPU characters in a row, on 10 diferent stages in a row. Then using the information the game collects as you play, it creates a CPU player that mimics your style as best it can.

I'm sure you're all familiar with Wii Sports and the part where you test out your fitness level. Well, this wouldn't be too different, except instead of it calculating an age or score, it puts together information like how often you use your shield, smash attacks, tilts, etc., or if you're aggressive or are more of a counter fighter, how you prefer to recover, edge guard, how you deal with projectiles, aerials, which characters give you more trouble than others, etc.

Then you save your CPU version and can play against it. It will be a third choice when selecting Human or CPU. It'll just say "Load CPU" and you select the saved player . You would also be able to replay the 10 fighters and levels as many more times as you'd like, to get a more accurate read of how you play, in case you were "having a bad run."

This way (if it was accurate enough to be useful), you could in a way, play against yourself. You can see what your strengths and weaknesses are, you can more easily see what you need to work on. You can have a tougher opponent than those level 9's, and you could even just leave it be for a few months as you play with your friends from time to time, and then come back to it and see how you measure up to the CPU version of yourself from a few months ago.

You'd then of course be able to save multiple CPU players with different characters, so this way you could also find things out like, "Is my Captain Falcon better than my Samus?" or "If there was a free for all with 4 of my players, which one of my characters would win?"

Do you think this could ever happen? I know it's 99.9% NOT likely to happen for Brawl, but do you think they'd be able to do it technology-wise? Do you think it's something that could be done now with the power of the Wii/XBox360/PS3? Would you like something like this to be available in fighting games? Would you add anything to this feature to make it even better?

Your Thoughts.

 

[thecatinthehat]

interesting...but i can see alot of flaws.
imagine seeing G&W trying to shine spike bcuz the player spammed Foxs Shine??

 

[BUnit]

I think he means the character that you use is also saved onto the CPU, so if you shine spiked with fox, you will be facing a fox that shine spikes and not a G&W.

 

[Star105]

this sounds very good thought about the game since it gives it more repeat value than it may have had before.

i can see how that might work

i wish they will implement it or have a downloadable version of the program (even if its unlikely)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I don't really know if it can copy your style unless you follow some kind of pattern...they tried that on some games and the computer sometimes just freaks out doing random things

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

Ai should try to do everything to copy human play. its the best way to have a good cpu instead of it being psychic/boring/full of holes.

ie: ghost in tekken 5, they do your juggles, they try to run your strats, but they usually dont know when to do them, so they end up doing a move that used in a mix up randomly etc. etc.

im pro AI completely ripping off everything you do in the game. even though, if a bad player plays with a certian characer alot, it might mess up their ai. but, maybe the AI could try everything, and only use things that end in a good result for them. but even if it dosent work, it could try it some other time, to slowly form "good play" based on how well the options it "stole" work.

 

[Farca]

Wow if they could pull that off, that would be perfect. Especially if you have a friend do it. So even if he is offline, you could play him. I think they could do it now, just a matter of taking the time.

 

[Mky762]

Wow if they could pull that off, that would be perfect. Especially if you have a friend do it. So even if he is offline, you could play him. I think they could do it now, just a matter of taking the time.

in addition to that, say your friend is really good, and you need to practice, you dont need to keep on trying to defeat a lvl 9 version of his character, including without using DI , shffl, etc, you just practice on his AI "clone". that would be awesome

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

i think also, top players could put up their cpu's AI for people to play against. (although thats kinda counter productive to them lol)

 

[Bendu]

They should totally do tournaments with your AI clones! Being able to actually play in tournaments is totally broken! It adds a random factor to the game! If your AI clone can beat everyone else's clone, then you are truly skilled at Smash. That human factor is just tooooo random.

 

[Mky762]

another cool thing would be that you should make a "clone" of yourself, and be able to upload and download different AI's and you could face someones "clone" then it could keep a record of wins and losses

 

[Kazuya]

I'm pretty sure some 360 and PS3 games do have that capability, just never been done before. Its a good idea you have, but in honestly, the Wii doesn't have that capability.

 

[Kirbykrew]

I'm pretty sure some 360 and PS3 games do have that capability, just never been done before. Its a good idea you have, but in honestly, the Wii doesn't have that capability.

They did it with Big Brain Acadamy: Wii Degree. If the function of this is even possible for Smash to establish, that'd make me play it much more.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Not only is this flawed, it's technically impossible for a computer to "learn" another persons fighting patters and apply them to varied situations.

Computers are would only be able to learn small amounts of patters with a secondary storage device, which is not present withing the games function to access one, nor does the way posses one. To achieve a the state of AI in which it can respond to every situation, it would requier an extremely complex pattern of algorithms that ties to every situation. Computer AI programming isn't an easy task, which is why the computer respondses are so limited to each variable/situation.

The only pluasable think I could see is memorizing some attack patters, but that, again will be flawed because of the games engine isn't talored like other fighting games. I would just give up on AI in general, the only way to get better is to play better people. There are no substitutions.

 

[raphtmarqui]

I doubt they would ever do this.

 

[BuSHiDo]

I know it's obviously too advanced of a feature to do with ease, or to be done extremely acurately. I know it won't be like an exact copy of your style and skills.

Think of it this way. You start the mode off by selecting to create a new character. Then the game puts you through a series of matches to record certain things about you. Let's say it'll already have a list of things to record like how many aerials you shielded, how many times you grab. Do you dash and grab? Do you shield grab? Does your Fox shine reflect most of the projectiles shot or thrown at him? Does Samus recover with a double bomb and then up B, or more often use the grapple to recover? Do you up combo often? Do you usually edge guard by standing right on the edge and throwing out smashes or tilts, or do you use projectiles or jump off the ledge for spikes?

There is an endless list of things it can record, and then based on the percentages, make the CPU match them. So if 25% of your attacks were smashes, then the CPU will smash 25% of the time. If you always throw the opponent up and combo with an up-air, then more often then not, the CPU will throw up and combo with an up-air after a successful grab.

Some people don't realize it, but during every match of Melee, the game is constantly recording a TON of information. It's recording KO's, SD's, victories, smashes, tilts, grabs, throws, projectiles, shielding, jumps, air time, match time, ground distance, etc., etc., etc. If it can manage to do all that while you play, then it can record all the things needed for the CPU Creator Mode. The only thing left is to be able to apply them to a CPU player's A.I. It doesn't seem like it would be THAT difficult to me. And yes, I know it's not really a clone of you and how you play, but it's better than predictable CPU players in Melee, and it's more fun than the same old level 9 with the some old habits and reactions every single time.

 

[komickid]

Where I live i dont have alot of people to play with and ive always wanted one of these type of tools implemented.

 

[Nilok]

This sounds like an excellent idea, not only dose it give you the advantage of fighting yourself and discovering your own weaknesses, and being able to fight more advance A.I. than a 9, but it will also give you the ability to see how you really fight. Actually being able to not be in the, I got to win mode (if the clone is good enough), you can see what you do, in a fight. Set it to fight a 9 and watch how your own skills play out during the fight and how it might bite you (again, if the clone is good enough).

Or, if the clone is not good enough to mimic you, at least you have a dynamic and changing (and may be even evolving), A.I. for you to fight and train against.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I know it's obviously too advanced of a feature to do with ease, or to be done extremely acurately. I know it won't be like an exact copy of your style and skills.

No, it cannot be done easily at all.

Think of it this way. You start the mode off by selecting to create a new character. Then the game puts you through a series of matches to record certain things about you. Let's say it'll already have a list of things to record like how many aerials you shielded, how many times you grab. Do you dash and grab? Do you shield grab? Does your Fox shine reflect most of the projectiles shot or thrown at him? Does Samus recover with a double bomb and then up B, or more often use the grapple to recover? Do you up combo often? Do you usually edge guard by standing right on the edge and throwing out smashes or tilts, or do you use projectiles or jump off the ledge for spikes?

I used to think that this was possible as well, but I researched the subject of computer programming after I made this topic. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=84749&page=3

Here is a post from said topic. I believe it'll help.

Well,i guess that proves my theory to be nothing more than a spontaneous occurrence...oh well,i tried.even if computers in smash can't learn,it just possible means that the computers were actually programed to do that i suppose.Or it's just a spark of luck.

Sounds very nice but the gamecube so-I-believe does not have secondary memory locations. I don't believe it stores data on the memory card either (the implementation of patterns created from human gameplay onto a database then onto a memory card seems very weird).

Why is it weird?

Well if Nintendo / HAL or whatever programmed the CPU's to repeat common human play-tactics then it would have been advertised. ...I don't see it on the back of my case nor do I see it anywhere in Nintendo's articles about the game.

The CPU's always did what they've been doing before, you've just been conditioned to believe they haven't done it before because you didn't Know what to look for in the past.





Eternal-Phoenix-Fire:

My programming teacher (I'm a college student) often preaches, "The mites in your eye-brows are smarter than the computers we have here".

Computers can NOT learn.

Artificial-Intelligent computers can't learn either man. They only store PATTERNS in their SECONDARY storage devices. They can't do anything outside of it UNLESS it was programmed (again, Nintendo/HAL didn't do that). For example:

I programmed an AI robot to predict if my eyes are closed or open when I ask it.

I open my eyes, it records data of when I opened and adds to how many times I've done so.
I close my eyes, and the same happens.
I open my eyes.
I close my eyes.
I open my eyes.
I close my eyes.
Then...out of nowhere, I only close 1 eye.

The computer WON'T know what to do because it isn't programmed to have a different value either than Closed or Open (yes you programmers I'm working with booleans).

They wouldn't magically know to say, "1 eye is closed", because they were NEVER programmed that way.

I hope this clears things up.

There is an endless list of things it can record, and then based on the percentages, make the CPU match them. So if 25% of your attacks were smashes, then the CPU will smash 25% of the time. If you always throw the opponent up and combo with an up-air, then more often then not, the CPU will throw up and combo with an up-air after a successful grab.

Some people don't realize it, but during every match of Melee, the game is constantly recording a TON of information. It's recording KO's, SD's, victories, smashes, tilts, grabs, throws, projectiles, shielding, jumps, air time, match time, ground distance, etc., etc., etc. If it can manage to do all that while you play, then it can record all the things needed for the CPU Creator Mode. The only thing left is to be able to apply them to a CPU player's A.I. It doesn't seem like it would be THAT difficult to me. And yes, I know it's not really a clone of you and how you play, but it's better than predictable CPU players in Melee, and it's more fun than the same old level 9 with the some old habits and reactions every single time.

Try and study computer programming/technology. It isn't an easy task.

 

[YOSHIDO]

I was hoping for this too. It would make training mode alot more useful. True i dont know how their going to do mind games or how the cpu is gonna change against differnt players. Like say u play one way against a fox. And then a differnt way against bowser. I think what it would boil down too. is how much exp the cpu has of you. An yeah it would be sexy to copy others.

 

[RazeveX]

the simplest way i can see it working is like this:

at the end of your match it says something like this:

total attacks: 327

character: fox

dash attacks: 13

jabs: 8

tilts: 56
-up: 26
-down: 23
-side: 7

grabs: 16
-up: 7
-down:3
-forward: 2
-back: 4

smashes: 72
-up: 32
-side: 21
-down: 19

aerials: 162
-neutral: 19
-back: 40
-forward: 51
-up: 37
-down: 13

B attacks
to lazy to work out, all of that stuff before took a lot longer than it would seem to.

It then works out the percentages you used these attacks at a range where they would hit. Say the AI for this result was far away, the options may include aerials and B attacks. If at point blank range, smash attacks, tilts, jabs and grabs apply.
Eg. The AI is in a situation ready to attack. It has limited its attacks to grabs, jabs, tilts and smashes. The AI data reads:
Grabs: 12%
Jabs: 6%
Smashes: 27%
Aerials: 44%
Tilts: 11%

(these results dont correspond with the above, im too lazy to work it out)

So it has 12% chance of doing a grab, etc. It is most likely it will do an aerial, since the person the AI is based on spammed aerials alot.

This would be quite an easy probability system to implement, if you stop thinking about all of this stuff like "its gonna shine spike me just like i do!!".

Think reality.

-RazeveX

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

no one said "fighting pattens" etc. etc. but a computer can very easily learn "if this hits, this is what the player does, and its very effective"

if you hit a move that you get gaurenteed dmg from, every time. the computer can just copy what you do. its not making the ai better by letting it choose new options only it could do because of its inhuman capabilities, but it gives it a step in the right direction because its able to.

its as simple as recording inputs after something is done.

youd end up with VERY HARD computers, but thats not nessisarily a bad thing. ie: the computer would probly always go for max dmg combos, and chain grab you to death because there is no reaction speed factor lol.

side note: most decent AI's in games play "reactionary". as in, they just piss around doing safe options (or relativly safe) untill you do something slow/interuptable etc. then they hurt you for it.

computer can be programed to learn. branch systems can be self inproving. especially when its as simple as seeing a situation play out hundreds of times. not only could the computer xcopy it, it should destroy you for doing the same situation to them.

edit:.. who said this was in melee? i thought this was just "omg i hope this is in brawl" etc.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

This feature could easily be made, but not good.
Your AI would know all your moves and be able to do them, but your AI wouldn't know WHEN to do them. That's where a human brain comes in.

If the AI DID know when to use the moves, it would be the ultimate training tool. And if the AI's were exchangable of some sort, I could SO see pro's making and selling AI's all over the world. They'd be rich.

 

[AtticusFinch]

It could happen, But I'd also like to see some AI that can actually play around your style, Ill explain.

You use shine spikes very often, and the cpu just gets hit by it everytime, but maybe the cpu will start shileding more often to try to stop this, I know it is complicated so please bare with me =/

 

[BuSHiDo]

Yeah, one of the things a couple of you are misunderstanding is that you think I'm saying the CPU learns and evolves to play like you do. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it already has a list of things to record that it already knows how to do. It just simply does them, or it doesn't.

Let's say for example that this feature was available in Melee and the list of moves for Fox did not include the waveshine because they didn't know what that was when they designed the game. This means that even if you do it in every match where the computer records your attacks and movements, it won't be able to make the CPU do it because it doesn't have that on it's list of moves to copy.

The way I'm describing it would NOT need some kind of secondary memory source so the CPU can "learn." If the computer already knows what every move a character can do is, then all it has to do is see what the percentages are with the way you do them, and also realize their interrelations to be able to do thingsl like combo, then it would be able to do that without any of that super AI or extra memory drives or things like that.

If this were done in a baseball game where it tries to learn how you pitch, it can easily just record which pitches you do most often, which order you do them in depending on what the count is, and that's it. Then it just does that as accurate to the percentages as it can. It doesn't mean the AI learned a thing. It's just working with percentages. There's a big difference.