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Covert Ops- The Pit Snake MU discussion

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
4,403
Location
Houston, Texas
Since kuro's laptop is busted and seeing as how we all have good snake experiance, im taking it on myself to start the snake MU discussion for him. Obviously this MU is important with MK gone as snake popularity is sure to increase and all of us have snake's in our regions that we need to overcome in bracket. So lets do this kuro style

Character Specific MU Knowledge:

What special things can we do to snake? What special things can snake do to us? What are each characters most useful tactics in this MU?

Starter Stage Knowledge:

What stage are we trying to strike to game 1? where are they trying to take us? and most importantly, with this in mind what stages is this MU most likely to go game one? what do we know about these stages and how they pertain to the MU?

Counter Pick Stage Knowledge:

What stage should we ban against snake? Why should we ban it as opposed to other stages? Because of this what stages will he take us too? what do we know about these stages?

What will snakes ban against us? Why are they going to ban that stage as opposed to other stages? Because of this where we will we most likely take them too? what do we know about this stage?

General MU knowledge:
list what experiance has taught you about this MU.

WE DO NOT NEED TO LIST WHOS FAVOR IT IS IN GAME 1. ONLY HOW MUCH ADVANTAGW EACH CHARACTER GETS ON CP. THIS IS FOR GATHERING INFO, NOT ARGUING IF ONE CHARACTER BEATS THE OTHER CHARACTER OR NOT. THATS WHAT THE OFFICIAL MU CHART IS FOR.


all right, im inviting the snakes into this discussion as well so lets please try to stay focused on this one until it is complete as lately we keep getting off the business track.
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
4,403
Location
Houston, Texas
Special things we can do to snake:

we can DACG CG snake until 41% plus regrab or dash attack if we grab at 0%.

until 20% we can fthrow> stutter step fsmash.

if snake is recovering with C4, we can cancel the upward momentum with UP-B. this usually kills him. We can also cancel his momentum when a grenade or landmine blows up on him and get true combos off of it. example http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...eature=player_detailpage&v=-575ND2k1iI#t=216s

if we let grenades hit our shield, we can do a wingdash in place and launch the grenades back at him due to the wind box we create.

when hanging on the ledge, if snake places a grenade by the ledge, we can WOI-regrab and push the grenades away with the wind box.

Stage Knowledge:

we are trying to take snake to BF, SV, or FD in that order. It usually goes to SV or BF in my experiance because snakes assume we are better on FD.

CP Stage Knowledge:

We want to take snake to halberd, delphino, RC, or frigate. no particular. Halberd, delphino, and RC are for sharking. halberd lets both characters kill earlier (easier to camp and set up gimps with pit in exchange for dying to his utilt at 95% with good DI). delphino is for timing out with WOI air camping and scrooging and sharking. RC is for all gimping and timing out.

Snake wants to take us to Lylat, Brinstar, Halberd, PKS1, or YI. Lylat and brinstar for hiding explosives as well as early ceiling kills. Halberd for early ceiling kills. PKS1 and YI because we can't fly under these.

Against snake we should ban brinstar, pks1, or YI. we either get limited space and die early as well as not seeing c4 or we can't scrooge.

Against pit snake should ban RC or Delphino. No-one wants to be timed out and no one wants to be gimped.

General MU knowledge:

snake outspaces our ground game. however, we still have moves with enough range and speed to make our ground game a threat. our dtilt pops him up and is long enough to punish a PS'd ftilt first hit. in the air just like most characters pit ***** a landing snake with his good juggle game. offstage snake usually eats lots of damage and risks early death. we out camp snake but his camping tools are deadlier than ours at high percents.

unless he is offstage, don't try to kill him until roughly 150%. he can kill us however at 110% with good DI, 125% with amazing DI. The CG helps us make up for damage output as well as our run away game. on stages that are big and/or have platforms we can time out snake but if we mess up it can cost us a stock. snake's c4 can cover one edge if we are planking but nades don't tend to work to well. if it is a stage we can't fly under our planking is more risk than reward. however we are safe on scroogable stages. be careful as snake's c4 can get us if we hug the bottom of SV and he blows it up we will be stage spiked so always be a little low.

grabbing snake is very important as our uthrow puts him where we need him. AR is bad in this MU, use mirror shield if you are gonna reflect something. when he is dthrow tech chasing, mashing WOI can get us out of it because of it's invincibility and utilt can take them by suprise because it is fast however these are not infallible as we can be grabbed out of utilt and ftilt/utilted out of WOI so mix up every option, just know that these options exist.

ill add more when more peeps contribute
 

Krystedez

Awaken the Path
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
4,301
Location
Colorado Springs
All I can say is that this matchup requires a good amount of patience and stage knowledge IF you want to CP. Best thing you can do is just get good at the neutrals, striking Lylat, and banning it if you know you can't handle it. Strike Lylat/YI, as they are your best choices. PS1 isn't nearly as bad as Lylat in my honest opinion, because it's harder to see nades, C4's, missles, mines, and even his freaking mortars. Not only that but it tilts some and messes up our arrows, and kill potential.

I'd suggest going to BF first. SV is okay. FD is bad to play on imho, because even though we out camp him, he lives longer and there's no way to set up kills on him. FD is environmentally unsafe.

CP wise (I don't reccomend janky stages, play good on the big 3 and you're awesome) we should try for RC/Delfino/Halberd/Brinstar. Brinstar you can actually effectively camp and out range him at times, just stay on the left and right platforms, shark a bit, beat the eggs, and repeat. Wait for acid to appear to put him in a bad position, and you're good. I LIKE Brinstar, though. So that's just me.
 

Invisi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
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566
Location
Sydney
3DS FC
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The snake main I know usually CPs Halberd or PS1. Halberd is actually good for Pit with sharking etc, so provided you be wary of the utilt you'll have a better time than most characters. PS1 may be worth a ban

I'm personally not a fan of BF, but SV does work well. I also like PS2, and since no one else does it often makes a good CP for most opponents, Snake included.

It's worth pointing out that you can wall his grenades with some skillful arrow spam. If he's holding them just after unpinning them then he'll drop them when hit, and the arrows will also stop grenades which are flying towards you. Doing this will often get a few to blow up in his face, which is always amusing.

That's about all from me
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
I doubt Snake will cp to brinstar in tourney. Also disagree with an outbreak in snakes after the mk ban. Yoshi's isn't that bad either and I think our best stage is FD against him. Getting kills on Snake isn't hard. Angel ring is also pretty good against snake's shied if it pushes him off or it grinds his shield because most of the time he can't punish it. You don't need to reflect his projectiles in this mu except maybe his usmash as angel ring can combo into it at times, but for the most part you can z-catch or shield and woi bounce grenades and attack his mortar/nikita.

I agree lylat and ps1 are the stages you have to watch out for against snake. But as far as neutrals go, Snake would rather prefer BF than FD or Smashville so BF should be picked as a last option. Definitely strike lylat and possibly yi or bf.
 

Damix91

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
272
Location
London, UK
I'll get lots of matches against snake when i go to a fest on thursday. For now though:

Stage Picks/Bans

IMO Strike YI and BF. Partly because they're shorter stages. YI has the annoying projectile blocking animals (shy guys?) and the side platforms hurt our gimping game more than snake. All the others are fine apart from PS1, not sure if anywhere still uses that as a neutral.

Pick SV and Lylat. You need the platforms to set up bair kills. FD is ok

Gameplan

I wouldn't reflect any grenades unless on the ground, maybe with MS in the air but even then i much prefer a combination of over powering snake with arrows , clashing arrows with nades, using WOI to push them away and just throwing them back. AR is just plain bad at relecting them and MS isn't much better.

Chaingrab if you can and try to capitalise on Snake's approaches. Fair can beat his weak aerial options in front of him. Always be ready to DI and punish any rogue Nairs with Bair or Dair. You have to make him pay with juggles when he's in the air or offstage. Most snakes like to wavebounce grenades to mix up their recovery so expect it. His landing options are also very poor (bair is decent) so abuse that.

As I said, I'll play some sets on thursday and see what else i can dig up.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
6,040
Location
Apopka Florida
Uhhh assuming unity...

Strike YI/CS for sure.

I like lylat. It's so easy to land bairs on lylat. But i use to be a snake main so i never miss grenades/mortars/mines/c4s. Cuz i'm so use to keeping track of them without trying to lol.

I also enjoy the tilting aspect. It enhances several areas for me personally.

Ps1 is alright. Not terrible but not amazing either. Definitely strike worthy however.

assuming unity rules...

He/she strikes FD/sv

I'd strike YI CS and ps1

And he'd either end up at bf or lylat.
 

Loz8ichimaru

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
150
Location
London, England
I'll get lots of matches against snake when i go to a fest on thursday. For now though:

Stage Picks/Bans

IMO Strike YI and BF. Partly because they're shorter stages. YI has the annoying projectile blocking animals (shy guys?) and the side platforms hurt our gimping game more than snake. All the others are fine apart from PS1, not sure if anywhere still uses that as a neutral.

Pick SV and Lylat. You need the platforms to set up bair kills. FD is ok

Gameplan

I wouldn't reflect any grenades unless on the ground, maybe with MS in the air but even then i much prefer a combination of over powering snake with arrows , clashing arrows with nades, using WOI to push them away and just throwing them back. AR is just plain bad at reflecting them and MS isn't much better.

Chaingrab if you can and try to capitalise on Snake's approaches. Fair can beat his weak aerial options in front of him. Always be ready to DI and punish any rogue Nairs with Bair or Dair. You have to make him pay with juggles when he's in the air or offstage. Most snakes like to wavebounce grenades to mix up their recovery so expect it. His landing options are also very poor (bair is decent) so abuse that.

As I said, I'll play some sets on thursday and see what else i can dig up.
There's a smashfest on thursday??

I don't really like lylat so I'd normally strike that, especially against Snake as you need to be able to see his shenanigans. As Yoshi's is the only neutral we can't fly under I'd normally strike that too. Would prefer to play on SV or BF personally.

As for counterpicks I always ban either Castle Siege or PS1. On the former you can't see his stuff easily, planking is not always possible and second part has walk-off areas. For the latter, stage has transformations which can be very frustrating, and we can't fly under it.

I find actually Killing Snake to be the biggest problem, as damage racking isn't too problematic, when he's at or near kill percent though he'll likely be defensive with grenades and leave your best option as arrows (which won't Kill), so you'll need to break through his defenses or try and use his grenades against him, a little too easy for Snake to come back into the match this way.
 

Maharba the Mystic

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
4,403
Location
Houston, Texas
i find that if i can't gimp him the best way to kill him is to rack him up to about 180% and then punish anything you can with a fresh dash attack

edit:

is that all you got mvd -.- ? lol
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,025
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Ok, posting because mtm is getting troublesome on the snake boards.

I play a local pit fairly often, so I'll make my judgements from there. We're definitely not perfect, and normally I wouldn't post, but mtm asked for it...

Even. Or close.

Most of my matches involve a lot of camping from both sides. At first I approach, taking a few hits while forcing him to ledge. Then I back off and camp. At which point he loses the camp war, and tries to get back on stage and reset the situation.

This continues until snake is either at kill percent, or starts getting juggled. Snake can kill from a distance, while pit has to get in close sooner or later, which is his saving grace in this matchup.

Stages for snake:
Halberd, lylat, ps1

Stages for pit:
Sv, yi

And that's about all I have to say.

:phone:
 

mikeray4

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
707
snake wins this MU. by like 55:45 or w/e.

ya snake dont die
pit got tricks

but tricks are 4 kids.
 

Damix91

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
272
Location
London, UK
Not sure really needs to be said having thought more about it. Snake seems a fairly basic matchup. Outcamp him, then stuff his approaches cos he has weak mobility apart from dacus and poor SH aerials. Juggle him like a *****. You just win this match through fundamentals, nothing fancy.
 

Luckay4Lyphe

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 8, 2009
Messages
3,915
Location
College Park, MD
Now this guy, I love plaing Snake. He's so manly. He's got all these projectiles and stuff, but don't worry guys we STILL outcamp Snake. Wanna know why? Arrows are beast.

Nades are his best ones by far, 1 frame pull?! Nades are great it's like getting in a free grab for snake because they do a lot of damage too. One thing maharba the mystic just taught us in the official innovative idea thread though is that we can wing dash out of shield to BOUNCE THEM BACK AT HIM. :O
He's heavy so don't think you'll kill him too early though.

Ftilt is such a strong move it does like 20% if both hits connect. One way to counter this move is to shield it and then we can drop our shield and then dash and then do a dash attack. It works mostly all the time. Don't do it at low percents though cuz you'll get hit back because he won't fly up very far. Snake is just a big teddy bear, shield his stuff then attack him!

Now his grab range is huge. Remember what I said about teddy bear, well he wants a hug and you may take a bunch of percent from his hugs. Those pivot hugs are nasty too. His dthrow just lays you down, it's almost seductive. If you roll one way, he can ftilt or dash attack. If you roll the other way he can do the same thing but in the other direction. If you get back up he can just grab you and lay you down again to start the whole process all over. If you do a get up attack he can just shield it and then do either of those options! If you just lay there he can utilt you for a kill!! He has like every options covered, this is why we need to discuss more Pits. The best thing I can think of is to be unpredictable and don't do the same thing of escaping it every time or he might know what you're gonna do before you do it. Scary I know.

He kills us with an utilt at like 110% so we gotta stay away from that move. I usually put up my shield if I'm in range.

Offstage is where Snake gets whooped guys, listen up. His cypher isn't all that great sometimes because he is vulnerable to everything on it. We can fair him and fair him and fair him until he's too far away to recover. Also, that c4 recovery doesn't work on Pit. If we use wings of icarus (our up b) when he explodes himself with c4 and he flies towards us we can STOP his momentum and he falls straight downwards in his hitlag from the explosion. Snake is dead now, celebrate with some Angel tonic.

Snake has trouble land too he can only land with like a bair (lol), shield that and punish that. He can land with a grenade in his hand (lol) just grab him and throw him back up. He can land with a airdodge (lol) just dash attack or grab him and throw him back up. Snake can't land for crap, juggle him like the clowns we are.

They like to dacus with the slip n slide mortar trick. I just fsmash them in the face when they do that. What do you guys do when they dacus and stuff?

Anything you guys wanna know about the Snake matchup? I know lots of stuff so just ask, cmon lets discuss matchups again like the good old days. I feel like I'm the only one contributing.
 

theONEjanitor

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
2,497
Location
Birmingham, AL
NNID
the1janitor
Snake and Pit happen to be the two characters I main :3
i think its probably close to even with a small advantage to Snake. i used to think Pit had the advantage, but Snake just hits the kid so hard, and doesn't die.

I think Pit outclasses Snake both on the ground, in the air, and around the ledge, its just that When snake gets a hit, he hits hard, and Pit has a harder than average time killing people, and Snake is possibly the hardest character in this game to kill.

As long as you're good at avoiding grenades, you should be fine though. just don't make mistakes, and snake can't hit you on most stages. Focus on not getting hit and running away lol. just slowly add up damage while avoiding his attacks. Pay very close attention to move decay. you need your moves to be fresh. Look to land bairs and f-smashes near the edge. There's no need to box with Snake. i think Pit's ground game has more depth than Snakes, but its still not worth it because Snake is going to eat your breakfast if you make even the tiniest mistake. Camp this foo and don't approach. Time him out if you have to.
I find that rolling is pretty good against Snake in general, because he doesn't have any moves that hit both sides. Don't be predictable obviously, a predicted roll will lead to a grab or an ftilt/uptilt.
WOI stalling seems to work more than often because Snake's want to punish you as you're landing. they'll often try pivot grabs and uptilts after you're 3rd jump.

know his range, DACUS can hit you from halfway across the screen. always be far enough away so he can't f-tilt you, and when in this range, always be prepared to deal with a dash attack or DACUS.

battlefield is my favorite pit stage in general, especially against heavies. I don't mind lylat, but as mentioned hidden explosives can be an issue. I don't mind YI that much, Snake can't edgeguard that well, and he can't chase us in the air, so I'm not REALLY that worried about flying under. Snake hates that YI platform, and we can really abuse him there.

i don't play on CPs much so i can't offer anything about that. <_<
FD is an extremely overrated stage for Pit, but i think we all know that. we like platforms A LOT
castle seige is a stupid stage for pit. but i almost never get taken there, so i dont worry about banning it.

also seriously use that WOI C4 cancel thing. it is TOO good
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,236
Location
Miami, FL
Even if pit keeps up with my camping and does not.get hit by my set ups its in pits favor, pit getting hit by all that makes it even lol

:phone:
 

Krystedez

Awaken the Path
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
4,301
Location
Colorado Springs
I believe the matchup to be even. I still have to do Matchup chart write ups... lol.

Snake:

Edge: Pit has tools to keep Snake at bay with great ledge camping strategies (WoI to blow nades back, obvious planking ability after, and scrooging/arrow spam from the ledge are preetty safe.)
Pit also has better edgeguarding abilities over all against Snake than vice versa.

Offstage: Snake offstage is just really bad for him, in that Pit can use WoI - refresh (where you touch the ground first before rising with UP B) to chase him for extended periods of time. This amount of pressure makes the Snake have to play paper rock scissors with Pit in the air, which is BAD considering if Pit gets hit, he can still recover wherever he gets launched, if Snake gets hit, it's even worse for Snake (u-air or sour b-airs keep sending Snake further away, potentially killing him). Cyphering Snakes make for great air-pressure and more arrow damage if he isn't that high in percent to begin with.

Onstage: Snake has tech chase abilities following his great pivot grab range which is a good tool against Pit in general. Coupled with Snake's already great tilts, Snake has ways to keep Pit out and scared. With proper DI though, and good perfect shielding or feint-approaches, Pit can get in with grabs, his dtilt, and/or SH nair. Not to mention arrow looping in this matchup is pretty profitable in pressuring Snake's shield. We also have a CG up to 41 percent ~ or so, which our F-throw doesnt get interrupted by nades.

Long range: Pit's arrows are shot faster than Snake can pull nades for, and at a distance, Snake really has to try hard to avoid being pelted at least once or twice every few seconds he's away. Arrow looping compounds this advantage further due to Snake being predictable in his positioning/spacing at such a range. Snakes nades however along with his nikita strategies (which blocks arrows) and C4 explosions/mines all help Snake control some of the battle, especially on darker or sloped stages where things arent as predictable.

Kill poential: Snake has higher kill potential, while Pit has excellent gimp potential. Not much to be said, you all know how lulzy Snake's utilt is, and how gay it is being arrowed off stage a bunch of times.
In addition to the above, Snake really has some favorable mix ups to come down to the ground faster with his b reverse techniques using nades and c4. At the same time, Pit has WoI bombing to keep him safe on landing at almost all times (which is basically WoI in the air and snap down and hold until you get to the ground; the mobility boost from WoI is great vertically AND horizontally)
 
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