Counters: A lazy punish or something more?

[DigiboyGaming]

I've never been a big fan of counters. I've always viewed them as cheap, lazy ways to punish. With both new DLC characters having some of the best counters, I want to know others opinions.

So, are Counters just a lazy way to punish? Or is it something more?

 

[Kurri ★]

Counters are generally predictable so I'd have to say no.

 

[E-Mann]

Counters are generally predictable so I'd have to say no.

Then I'm terrible at Smash, then.

 

[Kurri ★]

Then I'm terrible at Smash, then.

Don't call yourself terrible. It's just a matter of understanding your opponent's patterns, which is easiest when they counter a ton. The scary ones are when they don't counter and throw it out when you least expect. But I wouldn't call that cheap.

 

[DigiboyGaming]

Counters are generally predictable so I'd have to say no.

I can't tell if you're either following me or just become really active at the same times I do. Other than that, unless your fighting a Little Mac who uses d-special every 2 seconds, Counters aren't that predicable. Since they're generally stronger than most punishes, getting caught in a mixup can go from "Oh, good spot dodge, but I can recover" to "Wow, that counter killed me from 60% on a tilt."

 

[Kurri ★]

I got Smashboards (along with a few other sites) open 24/7 on various devices, since I can.

If the person isn't using counter every chance they can they're using it right since it's supposed to unpredictable. I've heard somewhere that you should use counter at max two times per set. After that your opponent may have a grasp of how you use them and will try to bait them out to punish you.

 

[E-Mann]

The scary ones are when they don't counter and throw it out when you least expect. But I wouldn't call that cheap.

Bayonetta's and Corrin's counters are literally why I fear going to For Glory every day I come home from school.

 

[jacksonTown]

Don't call yourself terrible. It's just a matter of understanding your opponent's patterns, which is easiest when they counter a ton. The scary ones are when they don't counter and throw it out when you least expect. But I wouldn't call that cheap.

It may not be cheap but the mechanic itself is being labeled as an "easy" way to punish, not whether or not it's spammed.

 

[E-Mann]

It may not be cheap but the mechanic itself is being labeled as an "easy" way to punish, not whether or not it's spammed.

Exactamente.

 

[DigiboyGaming]

I'm not saying Counters are broken. I'm saying that, when used, they: Automatically punish a move, when normally you would have to shield/spotdodge to punish, and, since counters are stronger than the attack they are countering, can lead to VERY easy kills, especially if you're facing an opponent with an attacking recovery move and all you need to do is walk off the edge, hit d-b, and you have a very high chance to kill.
Not to mention if you use the above technique with Bayo, you can easily use her AMAZING second (And third? I've seen Bayo's butterfly jump 3 times before landing.) to jump back up and use her d-smash and bam. 100% chance of meteor showers.

 

[ryuu seika]

No hate for Shulk's anymore? Are Bayonetta and Corrin's THAT bad?
I mean, as a Kirby main, Shulk's counter becomes active faster than most of my moves, allowing it to be used unpredictably as a reaction.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Contrary to what one might think, using Counters involves precise timing, and if your timing isn't good, then expect to get punished for the mistiming. Freeze frames can also be a cruel mistress in the free-for-all bouts.

 

[shedinja33]

Counters are the same as blocking then attacking.
Difference is that counters leave you open.

 

[Nexin]

No hate for Shulk's anymore? Are Bayonetta and Corrin's THAT bad?
I mean, as a Kirby main, Shulk's counter becomes active faster than most of my moves, allowing it to be used unpredictably as a reaction.

Corrin's counter is has extremely powerful knockback growth, and I'm assuming it also has a high knockback multiplier as well. When you add in the fact that it launches opponents upwards, landing it in the air can take stocks at really early percents. The earliest I've KOed with it was at 39% against a Bowser Jr.

Witch Time allows Bayonetta to combo the opponent in ways that normally wouldn't be possible, which makes her already powerful combo game even more potent. At higher percents it can lead into a Smash attack for a guaranteed stock. If you mistime the counter, you may get Bat Within instead, which reduces the damage that Bayonetta would receive and negates all knockback.

While Shulk's counter is very powerful, it is nothing compared to those two, especially since his counter stays active for shorter periods of time the more he uses it.

Anyways, I don't feel counters are "easy punishes". Yes, somebody who is spamming them is annoying to fight, but grabs and delayed attacks natually beat them so it just requires a different playstyle and mindset.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I can't tell if you're either following me or just become really active at the same times I do. Other than that, unless your fighting a Little Mac who uses d-special every 2 seconds, Counters aren't that predicable. Since they're generally stronger than most punishes, getting caught in a mixup can go from "Oh, good spot dodge, but I can recover" to "Wow, that counter killed me from 60% on a tilt."

What, people like me and @Kurri come to this part of the forum really often. Seeing how active both of us are, it's honestly unrealistic to not expect to see us in most threads.
Either way, no. Corrinetta's Counter moves are very strong, but they still are somewhat predictable. You can bait out any Counter from any character agaisnt any player and then punish their mistakes quite easily if you're smart. YES, Counters are annoying, and I say that as someone who plays Lucina often, but not, they're not that cheap.

 

[Zenithia]

Contrary to what one might think, using Counters involves precise timing, and if your timing isn't good, then expect to get punished for the mistiming. Freeze frames can also be a cruel mistress in the free-for-all bouts.

As a Shulk main, I can most definitely confirm this. It takes a lot of practice to be able to pull off a counter—even a good one like his. If you don't put in effort beforehand, then it's going to be a huge gamble.

 

[joltekz]

counters are an easy way to punish against people with a predictable playstyle, other then that, just throw it out when they least expect it or when you get a good read.

 

[HYP3R]

Using counter offstage is a great option to gimp character's recoveries that have active hitboxes. I'm not so sure about Shulk's counter though, it's harder to connect in the air.

The best example of gimping a recovery with counter is against Ike, you can just counter every Aether attempt, forcing him to recover with Quick Draw unless he's too low.

 

[the_muffin]

Counters are a good way to get overly aggressive players off your back. But mostly they signal that my opponent wants to get a counter on my smash attack, and is an easy way to score a kill by charging a smash, waiting for the counter, and letting it rip after it ends.

Witch time is scary though. I fought a really good Bayonetta yesterday online who used it sparingly and got some really good punishes on me for it. I am of the opinion that Witch Time is now the best counter in the game, because with normal counters the damage you take is proportional to how strong your attack is, where with Witch Time, you take a fully charged Fsmash to the face even if they use it on a jab or something.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Frame-perfect countering is the scariest kind of counter. Back in the Melee days, I've spent so much time practicing against the lvl 9 CPU on Marth that I read moves with perfect timing against human players, that was all I did anyway in practice.

When it comes to damage control against those who are good at throwing out counters when you least expect it, use a command grab for say, when engaging in the air because Corrins WANT you to engage them in the air as their counter has the highest star/top blast zone KO potential.

But it is best to see if your human opponent is a counter-happy opponent early on while your damage is low so you can adjust your tactics accordingly.

 

[wingedarcher7]

Countering is an easy way to punish a predictable opponent, that's all. It can also be a handy tool against a difficult opponent, that you just happen to get a good read on. But I wouldn't call it cheap. Using it too much can get just as predictable, and then it'll actually become a tool that your opponent can use to their advantage, focusing on grabs and punishing you instead. It's best to use them spread out throughout the game, they shouldn't be relied on.

 

[KirbCider]

I'm not saying Counters are broken. I'm saying that, when used, they: Automatically punish a move, when normally you would have to shield/spotdodge to punish.

Isn't that the whole point of a counter...? And they are by no means lazy at all.

Counters can be tricky to preform sometimes, and the more you abuse them the less effective they get. On top of that, you also become very predictable the more you attempt to use it. The timing also has to be right as well or the end lag on them leaves you open. Even if you mistime Bayonetta's and activate "Bat Within" you still have a chance to get hit afterwards depending on the type of attack.

Counters can be easily avoided by "Reading" your opponent and/or grabbing them when they attempt it. They're more risky than lazy.

Smarter opponents who can predict when you are going to use it are a lot tougher to actually counter, because again they can either bait you to using it and/or grab you in the process. I should also point out that Counters can screw you over in other ways as well. Little Macs like to use their counters at the edges sometimes, and usually find themselves getting flung right off the stage for using them.

Even Shulks can do that to him sometimes if you aren't prepared for it. You have to be pretty smart and use them wisely.