Countering shield grabbers

[xxdavis97]

hey guys I main sheik and my friend mains Marth... Whenever I try to approach, he shields whatever I do and shield grabs me... If I don't do an attack and boost grab he down tilts or fsmashs me away and I can't beat him... Also marth has the op grab range that makes it impossible to beat him if we both grab...Any strategies you guys know of to help me deal? I tried shield grabbing as well and the games got real close but I still come up short every time

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You already have all you need to counter this person.

The problem is you end up picking the wrong action at the wrong time. Grab is for shielding. You can wait out Marth before attacking to avoid his Dtilt/Ftilt. If you both grab, then probably you ended up grabbing first and simply missing. Then, you get grabbed in your ending lag.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Camp with needles and watch for his response, then act accordingly. If he doesn't do anything/doesn't know how to respond to needle camping then wrack up damage and find a kill move. If he responds by being aggressive then look for sloppy aggression and punish: Shield-grab misspaced/non-L-Cancel'd aerials, Shield-grab dash attack, spot-dodge Grab attempt and go for Jump cancel'd grab -> Down Throw -> Short-hop Forward air.

Needles are your friend and they force the opponent into a position where they have to approach in neutral. This allows you to respond however you want to their approaches. In addition if the needle camping works as it should you can start to get reads on his approaches (assuming he doesn't mix things up) and punish even harder.

 

[Deleted member]

Figure out when your friend is going to SH, learn to read it and punish accordingly with a poke or something.

 

[Spak]

If you don't already know how, learn to Boost Grab. This extends Shiek's grab range tremendously.

 

[SwisshySwaash]

run up, spot dodge, begin sick combo.

 

[EddyBearr]

Fair shield at the lowest you can, don't miss your L-cancel, then dash dance once. They will shield-grab, but your dash will get you out of grab. Your dash back can make you ruin their life.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Fair shield at the lowest you can, don't miss your L-cancel, then dash dance once. They will shield-grab, but your dash will get you out of grab. Your dash back can make you ruin their life.

Is this confirmed to work? If you don't mind do you know how many frames you have to execute the dash after L-Cancel?

 

[EddyBearr]

Is this confirmed to work? If you don't mind do you know how many frames you have to execute the dash after L-Cancel?

You can dash away after 7 frames on L-cancel. If you do a perfect fair on shield, they should be about out of shieldstun by the time you're out of landing lag (might actually gain frame advantage with AC but idk). Thus, you are able to dash away at the same time that they initiate grab. Grab comes out frame 7, so you have 7 frames of "gtfo" before their grab box actually comes out, making it more than enough. KirbyKaze uses this once on Pokemon Stadium against PewPewU at Apex 2015 [LRo12].

If you auto-cancel the fair (super easy as well) then you can dash 4 frames after landing, which if you tomahawk, is something you should be able to do more consistently, though idk the details on that regarding frame advantages on shield.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

You can dash away after 7 frames on L-cancel. If you do a perfect fair on shield, they should be about out of shieldstun by the time you're out of landing lag (might actually gain frame advantage with AC but idk). Thus, you are able to dash away at the same time that they initiate grab. Grab comes out frame 7, so you have 7 frames of "gtfo" before their grab box actually comes out, making it more than enough. KirbyKaze uses this once on Pokemon Stadium against PewPewU at Apex 2015 [LRo12].

If you auto-cancel the fair (super easy as well) then you can dash 4 frames after landing, which if you tomahawk, is something you should be able to do more consistently, though idk the details on that regarding frame advantages on shield.

Awesome, I'll have to try this. Thanks!

 

[xxdavis97]

You can dash away after 7 frames on L-cancel. If you do a perfect fair on shield, they should be about out of shieldstun by the time you're out of landing lag (might actually gain frame advantage with AC but idk). Thus, you are able to dash away at the same time that they initiate grab. Grab comes out frame 7, so you have 7 frames of "gtfo" before their grab box actually comes out, making it more than enough. KirbyKaze uses this once on Pokemon Stadium against PewPewU at Apex 2015 [LRo12].

If you auto-cancel the fair (super easy as well) then you can dash 4 frames after landing, which if you tomahawk, is something you should be able to do more consistently, though idk the details on that regarding frame advantages on shield.

Thanks a lot that was really helpful! How do you auto cancel if you mind my asking I've never heard of that

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Thanks a lot that was really helpful! How do you auto cancel if you mind my asking I've never heard of that

Auto-cancels happen during the first few frames and last few frames of most aerials. Basically the attack animation is almost completely done so the game reverts to using the normal landing animation (As if your character wasn't using an aerial). It's beneficial because most of the time it's just as fast/faster than l-canceling. You should be able to see what stuff auto-cancels how and when by looking at the framedata and hitbox stickies in the character sub-sections.

 

[EddyBearr]

To expand on that: You don't initiate an auto-cancel. It just happens with some moves at a certain point.

The move "finishes early", despite the character still doing some motion/animation that makes it look like the move isn't over, and makes it so that if you touch the ground during the time frame, you have the same kind of landing as you have when you just land without doing anything.

 

[xxdavis97]

To expand on that: You don't initiate an auto-cancel. It just happens with some moves at a certain point.

The move "finishes early", despite the character still doing some motion/animation that makes it look like the move isn't over, and makes it so that if you touch the ground during the time frame, you have the same kind of landing as you have when you just land without doing anything.

Okay makes sense so essentially I can perform another action before I think I would be able to.. Also would I be able to use the 7 frames I have to grab or is sheiks grab too slow?

 

[EddyBearr]

Frame 0 (arbitrary number): Sheik hits Marth's shield with fair.
Frame 1 (technically ignores hitlag): Sheik lands on the ground with an L-cancel
Frame 2-9: Sheik is in landing lag and can't do anything
Frame 2-9: Marth is in shield stun and can't do anything
Frame 10: Both characters are able to do something. Since Marth is in shield, Marth has far fewer options -- he will probably grab.
Frame 10-19: Sheik dashes away from Marth
Frame 17: Marth's grab hitbox happens and misses
Frame 20: Sheik dashes back, after Marth's grab hitboxes disappear, and initiates a grab
Frame 27: Marth is grabbed by Sheik.

 

[Comet7]

optimized fair on shield, whether autocanceled or l-canceled, is even on shield, for anyone who may be curious.