Counter is more viable/necessary post patch

[DariusM27]

Two reasons why I think people are more aggressive against marth post 1.1.1

1. Marth has weaker shield now, and pressuring marth is an even more powerful strategy than before.

2. Marth's shieldbreaker isn't going to break the shield of a Yoshi or capt falcon who keeps rushing in, getting two or three attacks out for every one marth attack, so they need to shield even less.

Basically, we can't apply the pressure we would need to make shieldbreaker work, or rather, they can defend more safely against us now, even with the patch change.

Which brings up my topic.

I think counter will be a bigger role in marths who want to still hang with the high level players.

So I have a question - in what scenarios is counter most effective?

I think counter works well to punish dash attacks like Pitt especially. Screw Pitts dash attack.

Lately I've been doing short hop - nair1 then fastfall - counter.

Fast characters can and do punish marth's landings. Counter can help.

As a mixup to counter, of course we could shield, spotdodge, or roll. I doubt that you'd have time to sh airdodge if someone is dashing at you.

So I'd like to hear your thoughts. How do we best use counter, or, how could we stay more safe while applying pressure, even against the toughest opponents?

 

[HFlash]

Using counter has never really been a "when is it best to use it" and more of a read on what your opponent is about to do. I personally like to do it alot when I am in a vulnerable position. My favorite time to do it is when recovering back to the stage, and the opponent jumps into me to do a meaty aerial (like DK or Falcon bair for example). If you do it too much, opponents will adjust, but when you condition your opponent to expect a counter, that is an opening for you. Unfortunately, the move is alot better vs heavy hitters as opposed to fast characters (which imo are the ones that give Marth the most trouble).

Just an aside, Marth is considered one of Yoshi's worst MUs. He flat out beat his aerials, which takes alot from his game. Plus, his eggs alone aren't enough to really force an approach out of us (unlike say Tink). So, you can just edge a small lead, and sit on it.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I occasionally use counter towards the stage to stage spike opponents as they recover. Other than that if you get read you usually get punished severely.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

I usually only use a counter during a hard read or to punish sloppy combos.

 

[Buffoon]

I tend to use Counter as a suprise last resort, specifically when my opponent's coming in for the kill while I'm at a high percentage.

 

[Ako.]

I mostly use counter for edge guarding or as a recovery tool to help get back on stage if im reading an attack. For example, if i grab the ledge i would either regular getup into counter or press back then jump and counter, this sometimes leads to kills if opponent is at high percent and you have rage

 

[ArcanaXIII]

I only ever use it off stage if my opponent has a recovery with hitboxes or if my opponent really loves throwing out moves.

 

[Darklink401]

You can always do instant ledge-jump counter as a getup mixup. Comes out fast enough.

 

[Rewrite]

Counter is, more than anything, a tool for reading. That said, there are still decent set-ups and baits that counter can be used for. Counter is some-what undervalued as an offensive tool. Simply short-hopping toward your opponent can be all the bait you need. If they expect an aerial and try to out frame-data you, then they can he on for a nasty surprise.

Counter makes a surprisingly decent combo and tech chasing tool. A great set-up for this is off of a down throw. A common thing for a lot of characters is to jump up to bait an air dodge then punish. If an opponent anticipates this, they may try to respond offensively. I've scorec some hilariously early kills off the top by using counter in this way.

If there is ever a time that counter is a bad idea, it's when you're feeling the pressure. Not necessarily when you're beong pressured, but when you REALLY feel it. Sometimes it can turn the tables and help you escape a bad situation, but it's a huge commitment and if you're not sure then it could make things even worse.

The whole idea behind counter is to make your opponent second guess their options. The results of the first few times you use it are pretty big as your opponent will have to keep counter in mind. If you can successfully counter two or three times, you can force your opponent to always try to play around it. Marth is about setting up his zone and keeping his opponent out, and of your opponent is slways second guessing their spproaches, then odds are they aren't getting in at all.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

Counter is, more than anything, a tool for reading. That said, there are still decent set-ups and baits that counter can be used for. Counter is some-what undervalued as an offensive tool. Simply short-hopping toward your opponent can be all the bait you need. If they expect an aerial and try to out frame-data you, then they can he on for a nasty surprise.

Counter makes a surprisingly decent combo and tech chasing tool. A great set-up for this is off of a down throw. A common thing for a lot of characters is to jump up to bait an air dodge then punish. If an opponent anticipates this, they may try to respond offensively. I've scorec some hilariously early kills off the top by using counter in this way.

If there is ever a time that counter is a bad idea, it's when you're feeling the pressure. Not necessarily when you're beong pressured, but when you REALLY feel it. Sometimes it can turn the tables and help you escape a bad situation, but it's a huge commitment and if you're not sure then it could make things even worse.

The whole idea behind counter is to make your opponent second guess their options. The results of the first few times you use it are pretty big as your opponent will have to keep counter in mind. If you can successfully counter two or three times, you can force your opponent to always try to play around it. Marth is about setting up his zone and keeping his opponent out, and of your opponent is slways second guessing their spproaches, then odds are they aren't getting in at all.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with your take on counter besides your last paragraph. I agree that counter is great for keeping the opponent guessing, and that it is a tool for reads.

However, I find I punish counters and get punished myself for using counter by short hopping towards the opponent and doing it like you said. Most people's reactions are to shield. Then you counter nothing and are awkwardly left wide open for a punish.

I do not see how you combo or tech chase with counter. Maybe to prevent them from combo breaking out of what you stringed already? Even then, counter will be the last hit of the combo because of its lag and knock-back. As a tech chase... How? There is not a tech-attack option. Only a get up attack from lying prone. Is that what you are referring to?

Lastly, if your opponent is smothering you relentlessly, counter can usually get you out of it if they opponent takes the combo to the air, because there is not a default air grab option and most will try to hit you with an aerial. On the ground, counter is not a very good option to escape pressure unless you see an attack animation coming your way already and have time to counter.

Feel free to disagree, I welcome a good and mature discussion on this topic.

 

[Gemba Board]

I only use counter if I whiff uair after dthrow. A lot of the time, they'll air dodge uair if you drop the combo timing and attack immediately after invincibility fades. Works pretty well, but like some of you might have pointed out, it's still a one trick pony.

 

[DariusM27]

Imo counter should be used in unexpected cases, times when you normally wouldn't.

When I play Falcon, Roy, Sheik, Mario, or even Samus, I am constantly being attacked. Using counter against very aggro attackers is a good idea, even if you don't always connect. It's important for the mindgame of the match.

I now think that my original post would be better restated

Basically, the only way marth is going to hang with most other characters on a consistent basis or to dominate against most high level characters, is to simply play absolute perfect defense, all the time.

-Use counter effectively to give your shield a reasonable number of mixups.
-In neutral, keep the necessary distance away out of their easy attack/grab range. Make them go for dash grab, it has greater end lag.
-Spot dodge, airdodge, or roll from every grab attempt and punish if possible.
-Shield every single attack and retaliate when possible.
-Seize every good opening for an attack, and don't commit beyond the point of safety.
-Use retreating fairs and empty retreating jumps to ff when opponent advances, and also use pivot dancing, both to maintain the correct spacing and create openings.

I just think we can't go all match without landing a few counters to make them realize attacking us is not safe, and then focus on dodge and/or punishing grab attempts.

A side note or homework for you.
Go to practice, hold shield down constantly, short hop and then fastfall.

You'll find that if you fastfall once, at the earliest moment possible, you'll land into shield.
But, if you wait to fastfall too long, or hit fastfall more than once, you will fastfall into a spot dodge.

Both landing into shield and landing into spot dodge will help keep marth's aggressive defense tight.

 

[HoodsxX]

I personally think people aren't using shield appropriately with Marth, or labbed it out enough to really figure out how to abuse shield stun changes. Sure he's not "obscenely +" On shield like some of the cast is now. But he's able to play a more aggressive approach then before. Which can still lead to him using shield breaker to break shields. Dtilt, and Jab are two examples where if you're on top of your spacing, considering the shield stun MOSTLY affects people who are amazing at spacing their aerials / grounded moves. Those two moves right there let us do marvelous things on shield and pressure the opponent. Just doing Dtilt Walk Dtilt on shield is scary enough, because they can't just throw out an OOS and stuff your Dtilt if you're fast enough. Same thing with Jab on shield as well if spaced correctly can't be OOS'd either, which can easily lead to different pressure options on shield, or if they decide to roll away / jump away from you.

 

[DariusM27]

I personally think people aren't using shield appropriately with Marth, or labbed it out enough to really figure out how to abuse shield stun changes. Sure he's not "obscenely +" On shield like some of the cast is now. But he's able to play a more aggressive approach then before. Which can still lead to him using shield breaker to break shields. Dtilt, and Jab are two examples where if you're on top of your spacing, considering the shield stun MOSTLY affects people who are amazing at spacing their aerials / grounded moves. Those two moves right there let us do marvelous things on shield and pressure the opponent. Just doing Dtilt Walk Dtilt on shield is scary enough, because they can't just throw out an OOS and stuff your Dtilt if you're fast enough. Same thing with Jab on shield as well if spaced correctly can't be OOS'd either, which can easily lead to different pressure options on shield, or if they decide to roll away / jump away from you.

I'd love to see what you are talking about. I don't feel like marth gets a big boost from the shield changes, but I guess I can't tell for sure.

 

[HoodsxX]

I'd love to see what you are talking about. I don't feel like marth gets a big boost from the shield changes, but I guess I can't tell for sure.

I had tested it just to re-confirm what I had said. Unless Marth is facing off against someone like Luigi, Sheik or Yoshi for example. they can punish him for free still with an OOS Nair since theirs comes out at frame 3. So if he were to do something like Dtilt on shield when spaced, he would be forced to block the OOS Nair, since his fair nor nair will beat out their OOS option. If the nair is any slower than that he'll trade, so an example of that would be Ness's nair being 5 frames. He'll trade with his Nair, Marth does Fair after Dtilt on Shield. This is true because his Dtilt on shield when spaced is 7f of shield stun for him, couple that with them now having 18 frames of lag to drop shield because of the changes, and add Ness's Nair into the equation which is on frame 5. While Marth's Nair and Fair being 6 frames. They will trade.​

 

[DariusM27]

I had tested it just to re-confirm what I had said. Unless Marth is facing off against someone like Luigi, Sheik or Yoshi for example. they can punish him for free still with an OOS Nair since theirs comes out at frame 3. So if he were to do something like Dtilt on shield when spaced, he would be forced to block the OOS Nair, since his fair nor nair will beat out their OOS option. If the nair is any slower than that he'll trade, so an example of that would be Ness's nair being 5 frames. He'll trade with his Nair, Marth does Fair after Dtilt on Shield. This is true because his Dtilt on shield when spaced is 7f of shield stun for him, couple that with them now having 18 frames of lag to drop shield because of the changes, and add Ness's Nair into the equation which is on frame 5. While Marth's Nair and Fair being 6 frames. They will trade.​

Doesn't sound worth it..

 

[HoodsxX]

Doesn't sound worth it..

It's more dependant on the character and who you're obviously trading with. If you trade nair / fair with Ness's nair for instance he gets knocked back a fair distance (Ness), and it's in a favourable position for you. Likewise if he were to do any move that's NOT nair you'll beat him out cleanly. So unless the opponent knows this you can add in some mixups on them depending on the situation. Remember even though you trade with Ness's Nair, doesn't mean you can't force him into a situation where he does an OOS you read that and do something like Perfect Pivot Fsmash to punish him for throwing out something when you're clearly at the advantage. You should test some stuff and see how it goes. But that's a simple strat right there that you can implement when pressuring someone's shield whose Nair isn't on frame 3. Hell, you could even do Jab into a setup if you wanted as well off of the Dtilt spaced shield pressure. There's honestly a plethora of things. People just gotta work it in more imo. Everyone's more aggressive on shield for a reason, and the shield stun changes prove that.

 

[Rewrite]

This is true because his Dtilt on shield when spaced is 7f of shield stun for him, couple that with them now having 18 frames of lag to drop shield because of the changes, and add Ness's Nair into the equation which is on frame 5. While Marth's Nair and Fair being 6 frames. They will trade.​

If your spacing with d-tilt is on point, when you jump up to n-air and opponent's out of shield option (in this example: Ness) wouldn't you actually win and not trade since Marth's disjoint covers both Ness' n-air hitbox and some of his hurtbox? You've done the mathematics for the frame-data scenarios, but in practice I think this is a little bit stronger than you gave it credit for. It seems especially strong if you're opponent has an even fast shield option, like a grounded one. Doing a retreating n-air after spacing jab or d-tilt since the opponent has to then chase you both forward and through your disjoint has always been a tactic I've used, but now it seems even safer and stronger.

 

[HoodsxX]

I definitely didn't try doing something like retreating nair / fair to see if he can beat out Ness. Could definitely see that being the case though if you're able to not only space your Dtilt, but space your Nair / Fair hitbox for the tipper while trying to beat his OOS option. If I got the time, I'll definitely test that out and see how it fairs. Also, as I'm sure others may or may not have tried testing. Marth can safely space ftilt most characters and either block, PS, Roll, or spot dodge accordingly if they decide to for instance Dash attack to punish him. As I know quite a few were able to punish him for that pre patch, compared to now.

PS: Honestly with how grounded Marth is having to be in this iteration of Smash. This is probably the best kind of buff they could give him in order for him to transition into his aerial moves / grabs to force the opponent into even more traps then before.