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Could whatever Mario's doing here replace wavedashing

Mighty_Guy100

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So in the beginning of the sonic trailer, mega man is charging an f-smash when mario slides in and jabs him. Now at first I thought that it was the end of his dash but upon further inspection, I realized mario was walking! Then he burst forward into a slide without any dash animation. Check it out for yourself

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y_z4u74cHUU

http://makeagif.com/YpBQul

Sorry I'm new to smashboards and don't know how to post pics :(

Anyway, I feel like this could be used to position yourself for attacks and approach (like a proxy wavedash but less useful cause u can't waveland) similar to traditional fighter's dashes.

And at :12 you see fox do a similar slide out of a dash then jumps out of it before getting hit By sonic. Unfortunately It hasn't been in the more recent trailers.

So what do u think? Is this something new or am I an idiot?

image.jpg

There u go
 
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DaDavid

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Watching the YouTube vid at 1/4th speed, I can't for the life of me definitively say what's happening... I'm not super duper knowledgeable of all things Smash though.

My only guess would be he's coming out of a roll he just performed prior to the video, or landing from the top platform and sliding as a result? So... momentum carried? I haven't a clue.

In fact those whole first 3 seconds seemed real neat to me in slow mo. After the bit in question, Mega Man acts faster out of his roll to try to attack, Mario dodges, dashes, turns around and grab all in those first 3 seconds. Looking real smooth...
 
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DaDavid

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Oh okay I see now. It's hard to tell just from watching the video, but yeah, Mario appears to me to be in his walking animation during the frames of darkness. We could be seeing it wrong, but if that's the case... that's quite a powerful hip thrust he's showing off.

The Fox example is less clear to me, but there's definitely something here, at least, in my eyes.
 

Banjodorf

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Iiiiinteresting. I'm not exactly sure what's going on there, but let's hope it wasn't just a technical error and might have some use.

Hmm.
 

DaDavid

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Lol to me the animation looks like he's pushing himself forward.
I will always and forever refer to this as a power hip thrust haha. But yeah it looks very much like he pushed through the air. Like he's swimming or something.

I worry it might've been a technical error, but I mean we see the slight example of Fox going into a bit of a slide after he dashed. You say you've looked through other trailers and not seen this in any of them though?
 

DaDavid

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Definitely the context in which you'd use such a maneuver. Honestly I kinda can't believe this is the first time I've seen this brought up haha.

Very curious to get some people who a little better than me to get a look at it and weigh in. But from where I'm standing, it seems like it's some sort of intentional.
 
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Mighty_Guy100

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Sadly no. This concerns me because the game changed a bit since that trailer. Like samus's f-tilt now has a green wave instead of the white one from E3, and Mario's fireballs now bounce enough for little Mac to run under them! What if whatever this is was removed!
 

DaDavid

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Sadly no. This concerns me because the game changed a bit since that trailer. Like samus's f-tilt now has a green wave instead of the white one from E3, and Mario's fireballs now bounce enough for little Mac to run under them! What if whatever this is was removed!
Definitely a real worry to have. But unless I'm missing something, the only sort of footage we've gotten since this has been newcomer trailers where there really wasn't any movement because they focused on Rosalina and Mac crushing people's souls.

I'm gonna remain pretty optimistic about this. Just cause we hadn't seen or heard about the new ledge mechanics until that one pic, didn't mean that they barely added it that day. So until the day they decide this.. thing, is worth making a big deal out of, it's not likely to pop up and it just happened to in this small clip.

Also I don't think it would replace wavedashing in the sense of specifically being a replacement for it, just in terms of being an additional mobility option.
 
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lordvaati

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could be a dash cancelled into an attack, similar to what Little Mac did(since the general consensus is that you can react out of dashes/rolls MUCH faster then before.)
 

PWN3

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Watching Fox's movements slowed down shows... Something. Whatever's happening here, it looks like it could do a lot for the game if it's intentional.
 

Mighty_Guy100

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True! But with every trailer it's becoming less likely :(

Yea it's hard to tell with fox since he moves so fast! Did u notice how fast he falls at the beginning of that clip?!
 
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PWN3

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Yea it's hard to tell with fox since he moves so fast! Did u notice how fast he falls at the beginning of that clip?!
Judging by what we know of the speed of the series as a whole (especially for Fox, lol) it seems very fast. Nowhere near the speed you can reach in Melee, but still very fast. This really makes me wish we had some proper gameplay footage to analyse instead of just trailers and that one match from E3.
 

Chiroz

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Not to rain on your parade but from what it seems by freezing the video as fast as I can, Mario wasn't in walking animation.

It seems like Mario was actually just finishing a dash, like someone released the dash right before the video started and Mario was sliding from the dashes momentum.


Here is a pic of what I mean.

image.jpg


There is a frame right before this one where Mario is sort of standing but I am guessing that was the frame that the "dash" was released. There is a frame right after this one where Mario is sort of crouching upright right before he goes into that weird slide which he attacks out of.
 

[TSON]

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That is a walking stop animation. If you watch in 0.25x speed and pause on the first frame you can definitely see him walking.
 
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Ulti-Bman

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If you ask me, the Mario vs. Mega Man match accounts for nothing. The gameplay looks way too beta in comparison to what it looks like in Sakurai's later updates.
 

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Examining the dust kicked up in the beginning of the video looks the same as the dust kicked up at the end of his run across the platform in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQD1yJinzeQ#t=1m54s

This clip also shows the dust for landing and dashing. When landing the dust surrounds Mario so I'll assume it isn't a mechanic involving landing into the ground. The dust produced from dashing is also longer and more angled. The animation itself looks similar but showing Mario's back rather than his front (arm position looks similar). Perhaps this is what happens when you let go of the stick mid dash prior to entering running animation, like a separate sliding animation.
 

Lozjam

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I like this, it seems like smash 4 will be amazing competitively
 

DaDavid

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I think I'll hold off on further excitement/anticipation of this until we see it pop up in newer footage. It looks like it's definitely a thing at that point, but if it's been removed... well we'll just have to wait and see.
 
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It's just Mario stopping his dash. The thing that is interesting is not the animation itself, but the fact that a dash attack didn't come out instead of canceling all momentum into a jab, unless the stop dash animation now has IASA frames now.

Based on observation it looks like this.

Dash, stop dashing with stick in neutral, slide is cancelable.

Dash, stop dashing with stick holding forward, dash attack occurs.

Or if it's frame related, it could just depend on when you press A.

Also the animation varies depending on the characters friction.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I think the suggestion that it was indeed just the slide from stopping a run is correct. I'm not sure how well everyone understands these movement states in Melee and Brawl so I feel like I should explain what they are and then add my speculation on what may be changed here.

Slamming the stick to the left or right causes your character to go into a fixed burst of speed in the respective direction. This is a "dash". It has a fixed speed and distance, and if you continue to hold the direction as it completes, you will seamlessly transition into a "run" state which is just a continuous state of moving forward. This distinction should be well known to anyone familiar with Melee Fox; his dash was a lot faster than his run so it was better to repeatedly dash instead of allow a continuous run to occur ("foxtrotting" was the community's name for this tactic). Notable about a dash is that it has to complete before you can just stop; Melee let you interrupt it with another dash (Brawl did not), but you couldn't just dash and then stop mid-dash without doing something else. Releasing the stick while dashing results in the dash completing and then skidding to a stop whereas releasing the stick while running immediately transitions into skidding to a stop based on your current speed and friction. Since dashes are generally faster than runs, releasing the stick during a dash will usually result in a longer and further slide, but that exact dynamic is character specific.

My guess for what is changed is what that the slide is now a totally free action in which the player can do whatever. Before it was treated the same way as dashing or running wih the lock to dash attack as a standard attack though the player could jump or shield to open a few more options (most notably up smashes and up specials). If true, this is a really big deal, but it's not the same thing as wavedashing at all. With wavedashing, it's about the ability to instantaneously get momentum in which there's zero commitment. Here, you're still going to have to finish dashes so if you use it with a dash it's basically what wavedash would be if it had start-up, and it's unclear how momentum is carrying here (Mario seems to stop completely with the jab, but Mario's friction isn't exactly bad so he may have just been done moving). More critically, you can run across the stage to a distant opponent and then attack freely more quickly; since you can stop a run whenever, this could allow for those with a bit of tech skill to basically do whatever they want out of running which would be a really big deal.

That's just my speculation; it could change before the final game, or I could be reading this wrong. Either way, it was a pretty fantastic catch to notice something wasn't normal there; that is so early in the trailer that it's really hard to notice, and the Fox situation is so chaotic that it's hard to even see what he's doing. This would be a thoughtful tweak of base mechanics which is something we've already seen Sakurai do twice now (with the ledge mechanics and the rapid jabs) so i wouldn't really be surprised if this or something like this really were in the final game. I continue to really look forward to having this game in my hands and being able to see for myself exactly how everything works.
 

DakotaBonez

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So, after releasing the stick while Mario was running, Mario entered his "sliding" state. In the previous game, you had to wait for the character to stop sliding before you could input any other commands, this opened you up for punishment from your opponent making you think twice about running everywhere. However, in this game, it seems that you can cancel out of the slide animation and execute attacks while retaining the momentum from the sliding state. It's essentially a forward wavedash. I wonder if you have to dash forward and then move the stick in the opposite direction, or if you just release the stick after running/dashing.

Another interesting thing happens 2 seconds into the video. Mario dashes forward but is able to immediately turn around and grab Megaman, no skid/turnaround animation or anything. Could this mean that Dash Dancing is back, or that you can cancel out of turnarounds as well?
I wonder how much of this will be in the final game.
 

mimgrim

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Another interesting thing happens 2 seconds into the video. Mario dashes forward but is able to immediately turn around and grab Megaman, no skid/turnaround animation or anything. Could this mean that Dash Dancing is back, or that you can cancel out of turnarounds as well?
I wonder how much of this will be in the final game.
That's just a pivot grab. It was in Brawl as well.
 

LancerStaff

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This is definitely interesting.
1. It's (assumably) easy to perform.
2. Doesn't completely change the nature of attacking for most.
3. It's casual friendly because it doesn't look like a glitch or otherwise unnatural.
And 4. Doesn't require a new button to use. (Again, assuming.)

Even if it's just the jab it'll help alot of characters.
 

[TSON]

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I personally don't even think it was interrupted. They just buffered an input so that the first frame that you can act out of, they did.

Also yes, this is a run-skid. You can see the exact same animation in the Mario vs. Mega Man video from E3. This is not gonna replace WDing.
 
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Empyrean

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Seems like dash-dancing is back, look at Pikachu on the Pilotwings part. Also, is it me or does Fox grab the ledge from waaaay too far away?

As for the Mario thing, after watching that part on 1/4th the speed a lot, it doesn't seem like anything too special.
 
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