Could wavedashing be theoretically replaced with something equally functional but easier?

[Quillion]

First, let me say that I am not against wavedashing because I currently can't do it consistently. I fully want to eventually get the hang of it, but I'm still practicing (in Melee SD Remix, of course; stop ignoring that mod, people).

But something I consider kind of questionable is that PM retains the wavedash and the associated motions. I know that even dedicated Melee players dislike how taxing on the fingers the wavedash is.

Could it be replaced with something that does the same thing or have the input made easier? I point to wall jumping in Mario as an example of how Nintendo has officially done this. It was originally an engine exploit in SMB1, but like all good glitches, requires frame-perfect timing to actually pull off. Eventually, they incorporated this into the 3D games and the NSMB series, where they made it official and didn't require you to have split-second timing to pull it off, and even designed levels around it (okay, it was tricky in 64, but they fixed it in Sunshine and the DS remake).

Now, if the entire point of wavedashing is a versatile slide on the ground, there are many ways to make it better; one way I can think of is to just make you slide by doing a split-second tap on the to make you slide a little. It's like in Street Fighter, where double-tapping <- or -> makes you Dash, and with Dash Canceling in SFIV, this creates a lot of combo opportunities. By imitating this in PM, it could make the game less taxing even to the most advanced players, as a vital option is reduced to a single motion.

I know that the point of PM wasn't to recreate Melee, but to surpass it, but the development blogs still make a point about "matching Melee". If you really want PM to truly surpass Melee gameplay-wise, this physics exploit needs to be made into an actual action instead of remaining a physics exploit.

 

[Quillion]

Of course, if the input was simplified to a little tap, it wouldn't be called wavedashing anymore because there's no wavelike motion of jumping and airdodging.

 

[Gil.]

Of course, if the input was simplified to a little tap, it wouldn't be called wavedashing anymore because there's no wavelike motion of jumping and airdodging.

Not where the name comes from at all. Wavedashing doesn't even come from Smash Bros, it came from Tekken Tag Tournament beforehand, where you could perform a crouching slide, and the name Wavedash came from the Standing and Crouching motion that you would move in, nothing to do with jumping or airdodging. It's a generic fighting game term for a rapid slide movement option, it's in MvC too, not just in Smash.

 

[Narpas_sword]

1: it's not hard as it is.
2: its not counter-intuitive
3: changing it could mess with other things
4: we've done this topic recently and it didn't work out well.

 

[Octorox]

It's possible, but I think you would lose some of the nuance because "imperfect" wavedashes and wavelands can occasionally be desirable. Either way, if you're looking to remove technical barriers without altering the core gameplay, L-canceling is probably a bigger offender. That said, the PMDT currently does not have plans to alter either mechanic. Technical execution is a part of Melee's gameplay that is enjoyable to a lot of players and we want to preserve that.

 

[Paquito]

4: we've done this topic recently and it didn't work out well.

Embracing Wave-Dashing

 

[Zarxrax]

I think the wave dash could definitely be simplified a lot like you described. And auto l-cancelling would be nice too.
But they aren't going to happen in Project M. Someone would have to fork it into a new mod to implement these things. I think that would be pretty awesome though.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Eh, When I started I could never wavedash with pichu, and I get that some characters are easier to wavedash with than others, but I think that instead of asking them to change the core mechanic perhaps ask make the window slightly more forgiving? I would be cool with that because that does leave the nuances of wave dashing intact.

 

[Narpas_sword]

the 'window' is the characters squat frame.

if the change that, they change how the character works as a whole

 

[l3thargy]

how about making a button press that does the jump and air dodge inputs for you where all you would have to do is input the down left/right direction on the analog stick?

 

[Zujx]

1: it's not hard as it is.
2: its not un-intuitive
3: changing it could mess with other things
4: we've done this topic recently and it didn't work out well.

^^^^^
All of this

"I am not against wavedashing because I currently can't do it consistently. I fully want to eventually get the hang of it, but I'm still practicing (in Melee SD Remix, of course; stop ignoring that mod, people)."
i have a really hard time believing this statement because if you knew how to do it consistently you would realize its really isn't that big of a deal. It becomes second nature to you after awhile and you don't think about it at all.

Many people like the technical barriers of this game because, its a very visual way they can see their overall improvement it keeps people around having a higher skill ceiling.

 

[CORY]

how about making a button press that does the jump and air dodge inputs for you where all you would have to do is input the down left/right direction on the analog stick?

you can't just have one button, it would have to be a macro for each jump squat tier, which might not be possible for them to program into a command.

and anyway:

That said, the PMDT currently does not have plans to alter either mechanic.

bam. let's just close this down.

 

[Quillion]

Huh, I didn't know that people actually hated wall jumping. I mean, I thought that making what was once an accident into a legitimate action by both making the input easier and designing the game around it was good game design, but I guess I was wrong.

Snark aside, I just have to... *facepalm*. So the point of Melee and PM isn't that it's a fast-paced, kinetic game where offense controls the pace of the fight instead of how Brawl and Smash 4 let defense control the pace of the fight? It's all about "hur hur I'm so much betta dan u newbs"?

Why don't you make walljumping frame perfect like it was in SMB1 while you're at it. And screw the direction+B inputs for specials; why not make them use quarter-circle and dragon punch motions for the specials? If that's what you really want, you should go ahead and increase the amount of skill needed to play this game. Because clearly that's what people appreciate about PM, even though PMDT is clearly not going all out on it.

 

[chaosscizzors]

a macro would be nice but i don't really care.
start thinking of this game as "project: if it ain't broke don't fix it". and that's why this, that and the other thing.

 

[IFC Jigglypuff]

don't think its a good idea at all, people already make fun of project m for being a "easier" version of melee.

 

[Leafeon]

Huh, I didn't know that people actually hated wall jumping. I mean, I thought that making what was once an accident into a legitimate action by both making the input easier and designing the game around it was good game design, but I guess I was wrong.

Snark aside, I just have to... *facepalm*. So the point of Melee and PM isn't that it's a fast-paced, kinetic game where offense controls the pace of the fight instead of how Brawl and Smash 4 let defense control the pace of the fight? It's all about "hur hur I'm so much betta dan u newbs"?

Why don't you make walljumping frame perfect like it was in SMB1 while you're at it. And screw the direction+B inputs for specials; why not make them use quarter-circle and dragon punch motions for the specials? If that's what you really want, you should go ahead and increase the amount of skill needed to play this game. Because clearly that's what people appreciate about PM, even though PMDT is clearly not going all out on it.

...?
So much for "Snark aside,"

Wavedashing is three inputs, only two of which you have to do in order. I don't see the problem.

 

[MagnesD3]

don't think its a good idea at all, people already make fun of project m for being a "easier" version of melee.

In truth this sentiment really doesnt matter since easy doesnt mean worse when it comes to tech skill and as it stands nothing is too crazy to pull off execution wise (even though I havent figured out how to short hop double fox laser consistently ) in project m which is a good thing, opens the door for people with less tech skill and more strategic skill. Wavedashing is easy enough.

 

[IFC Jigglypuff]

In truth this sentiment really doesnt matter since easy doesnt mean worse when it comes to tech skill and as it stands nothing is too crazy to pull off execution wise (even though I havent figured out how to short hop double fox laser consistently ) in project m which is a good thing, opens the door for people with less tech skill and more strategic skill. Wavedashing is easy enough.

yeah that is true, & yes wavedashing is pretty easy haha. i think it would feel really weird though if they made wavedashing into a single button command, or just adjusted it differently then how its always been.

 

[Leafeon]

Is this like a weekly thing here to make a new thread asking for wavedashing to be reduced from two buttons to one?

 

[MagnesD3]

yeah that is true, & yes wavedashing is pretty easy haha. i think it would feel really weird though if they made wavedashing into a single button command, or just adjusted it differently then how its always been.

the way it is now you can alter the distance based on the way you do it meaning there is actual strategy behind how you wavedash which is why I think a single button wavedash would be hindering IMO.

 

[guedes the brawler]

1: it's not hard as it is.
2: its not counter-intuitive
3: changing it could mess with other things
4: we've done this topic recently and it didn't work out well.

i'm goign to disagree with this point. from a mechanical standpoint it ameks sense, but from a logical one? you are jumping and dodging in the air to slide on the ground. it's a ground mechanic that doesn't use grounded inputs to happen.

 

[chaosscizzors]

to everyone saying this would actually change the effect of wavedashing: you alter the distance with the joystick and you can still triangle jump/waveland classically.

or i missed something somewhere. we're talking about a wavedash macro basically, right?

 

[Quillion]

Is this like a weekly thing here to make a new thread asking for wavedashing to be reduced from two buttons to one?

The problem is that PMDT designed the game around it, yet kept it the same input-wise. People are saying that it should be kept as it is.

By that logic, PMDT should make wall jumping frame perfect like it was in SMB1, because it's better to be rewarded for your skill.

Maybe what we really want is to send a message to Sakurai; to show that both keeping wavedashing as it is and removing it are equally bad solutions to addressing his hatred. Why not take the option of making it easier?

 

[Narpas_sword]

i'm goign to disagree with this point. from a mechanical standpoint it ameks sense, but from a logical one? you are jumping and dodging in the air to slide on the ground. it's a ground mechanic that doesn't use grounded inputs to happen.

It makes sense if you learn wavelanding first.

Airdodge into ground creates slide is logical enough.

Then you progress to knowing that you can do it as you leave the ground as opposed to coming down.

Then you progress to knowing you can do it before you leave the ground.

 

[MagnesD3]

Instead of this topic we should have a topic about moving the dacus universal frames of input to 3 IMO dacus is harder then wavedashing. (Even though I can consistently do both, I mess up dacus more.)

 

[Quillion]

It makes sense if you learn wavelanding first.

Airdodge into ground creates slide is logical enough.

Then you progress to knowing that you can do it as you leave the ground as opposed to coming down.

Then you progress to knowing you can do it before you leave the ground.

Is there anything wrong with simply sliding on the ground with a little tap on the stick?

 

[Narpas_sword]

yes. dashing exists already.

 

[Quillion]

yes. dashing exists already.

Let me point you to a little thing from another set of fighting game fans: MUGEN. Specifically, the works of the renowned MUGEN programmer POTS.

You don't even have to play it in MUGEN; I recommend you just download the .rar of Ryu, extract, and read the readme. Notice that if you double-tap and hold, Ryu goes into a run. If you double-tap and not hold, Ryu just hops forward.

Could the initial dash in Brawl be reprogrammed to do something similar while combining it with wavedashing mechanics? A PMDT member has already come out and said that it's possible.

 

[HalcyonDays]

the way it is now you can alter the distance based on the way you do it meaning there is actual strategy behind how you wavedash which is why I think a single button wavedash would be hindering IMO.

In my opinion, if you still have the option to wavedash manually while also having a button dedicated to it on top of that, it might not be as hindering. On top of that, giving the option to customize your controls to whether you even want this function or not should help. Much like Brawl's option to let players edit their button input commands.

 

[Pwii]

Is there anything wrong with simply sliding on the ground with a little tap on the stick?

Son, if you want a game that's easy on the fingers just go play an rpg. Wavedashing the way it is allows for different types of wavedashing, wavelands, not to mention options like wavedashing OoS and waveshine/wavemagnet. Wavedashing is not hard, and I don't mean compared to some hypothetical standard of universal difficulty. I mean it's easy in comparison with other advanced techniques you have to master in Smash.

 

[guedes the brawler]

It makes sense if you learn wavelanding first.

Airdodge into ground creates slide is logical enough.

Then you progress to knowing that you can do it as you leave the ground as opposed to coming down.

Then you progress to knowing you can do it before you leave the ground.

i'm not saying it doesn't make sense, but we still have a techie about ground movement being executed by JUMP and DODGE buttons instead of just the "Move"... er, button? stick. yeah, that.

it's bad "game design'. though i don't blame Sakurai (who probably couldn't fix this normally since fixing this would make it's inexistence a physics engine bug... and messing witht he actual engine is not a good idea later on), or the PMDT (gotta carry over THE melee tech...). But it has room for improvement.

 

[CORY]

it doesn't, though. you air dodge into the ground. you hold your momentum. you slide. that's it. it's not inconsistent or buggy and once you break down the mechanics of it, the tech makes perfect sense.

the only thing that could logically be done to simplify the mechanic is to make a macro command that's specific to each jump squat tier and put that in the button layout choices. which might not be possible. and the pmdt's said they don't care and aren't going to change it.

why isn't this thread closed already?

 

[MagnesD3]

In my opinion, if you still have the option to wavedash manually while also having a button dedicated to it on top of that, it might not be as hindering. On top of that, giving the option to customize your controls to whether you even want this function or not should help. Much like Brawl's option to let players edit their button input commands.

If it's a button config option I'd be okay with that.

 

[Narpas_sword]

These threads beg the question that wavedashing is hard, when it really isnt.
no changes are needed because it's not established that it is hard.
Wavedashing is fairly simple when you compare it to all the other techs that are present. even when compared to normal moves.

If it's a button config option I'd be okay with that.

So a wavedash macro gets implemented, then every other topic opens up:

'where is my double super wavedash macro'?
'can we make Quick Draw cancelling easier'?
'how come there's a wavedash button but no shorthop button'
'SH double laser too hard - suggestions to make it easier'
'request moonwalk macro'
'need a shield drop button'

Then every dog and it's mother who has watched a youtube video on game design will be spouting their opinion as if they know more than the PMDT who are designing the mod.

 

[MagnesD3]

These threads beg the question that wavedashing is hard, when it really isnt.
no changes are needed because it's not established that it is hard.
Wavedashing is fairly simple when you compare it to all the other techs that are present. even when compared to normal moves.





So a wavedash macro gets implemented, then every other topic opens up:

'where is my double super wavedash macro'?
'can we make Quick Draw cancelling easier'?
'how come there's a wavedash button but no shorthop button'
'SH double laser too hard - suggestions to make it easier'
'request moonwalk macro'
'need a shield drop button'

Then every dog and it's mother who has watched a youtube video on game design will be spouting their opinion as if they know more than the PMDT who are designing the mod.

I said I'm ok with it, not that I want it. (Also I do wish short hop double laser was easier with fox cuz I can't figure that crap out (to be fair I haven't looked at a guide on how to do it consistently...))

 

[Narpas_sword]

lol, you shorthop, then hit b twice.

Fast.


no


Faster than that.

 

[Rhumagricole]

I understand how wavedashing can seem like a daunting technique to master; even if some believe its easy to do, its certainly not easy to do perfect wavedashes or wavedashing follow-ups or shine-wavedashes accuratly 100% of the time. But then again all those nuances of length of wavedashes allow so much more subtleties in spacing an opponent that I personally wouldn't change how it is at all.I certainly do understand the frustration and fatigue that comes with practicing the technique however, but like all great competitive games, the technical and hard stuff is part of the fun in a way.Oh and by the way there are characters that just have overall atrocious wavedashes on who you shouldnt spend your time practicing. Bowser comes to mind, but he isnt the only one.Keep on practicing and you'll get the hang of it!

 

[MagnesD3]

lol, you shorthop, then hit b twice.

Fast.


no


Faster than that.

I get it very inconsistently I may have to look up someone's hands on YouTube..

I feel I'm doing it wrong, either that or it's just that hard..

 

[Quillion]

Son, if you want a game that's easy on the fingers just go play an rpg. Wavedashing the way it is allows for different types of wavedashing, wavelands, not to mention options like wavedashing OoS and waveshine/wavemagnet. Wavedashing is not hard, and I don't mean compared to some hypothetical standard of universal difficulty. I mean it's easy in comparison with other advanced techniques you have to master in Smash.

Let me debunk this by using the list of wavetechs from SmashWiki:

Approach and spacing?

• Tap the repeatedly left or right.

Waveshield?

• Right after tapping the , press . It's like the difference between smashing and dash attacking.

Wavesmash?

• Right after tapping the , tap the .

Waveshining?

• , tap , , tap , repeat for as long as you like.

Edgehogging?

• Make it that a back tap on sends you sliding backwards. If this interferes with dashdancing, make it that back-and-forth tapping does dashdancing instead.

Wavelanding?

• Assuming the air dodge is unchanged, nothing needs to change. But if they get the boneheaded idea to remove the slide from a groundward airdodge, just land with your grounded air dodge and tap your .

Variable length sliding?

• Tapping gives you a bigger slide while tapping and other angles give you a smaller slide.

And here's a messsage for everyone who says "lol you hate wavedashing cause you suck":

I do not want to invest my time into something that is remaining little more than a corner case of air dodge physics for a mod that is supposedly trying to surpass Melee. Designing the game around it without simplifying the game makes NO SENSE whatsoever. It's like making the Wall Jump in Mario or even Smash have frame-perfect timing because people like to be rewarded for such a difficult maneuver, therefore all of the levels that require wall jumping needs this frame-perfect timing.

I'll invest my time into it for Melee (SD Remix), but only for Melee. Because, hey, it's an interesting exploit, and there's nothing Nintendo or even the insignificant coven of Melee hackers can do about it. I'd compare it to Yoshi's Infinite Flutter Jump in Super Mario Galaxy 2. Sure, it's fun to use. Sure, I don't mind if it comes back. But if it comes back and people actually decide to design the game around it? Idiotic game design.

it doesn't, though. you air dodge into the ground. you hold your momentum. you slide. that's it. it's not inconsistent or buggy and once you break down the mechanics of it, the tech makes perfect sense.

What if one conceives of a directional air dodge that if you try to dodge into the ground, you can't slide? I actually asked the Melee corner of SmashBoards, and even they think that without the wavedash, the directional air dodge would be superior to the failure of game design that is the momentum-conserving air dodge of Brawl and Smash 4.

 

[Leafeon]

I do not want to invest my time into something that is remaining little more than a corner case of air dodge physics for a mod that is supposedly trying to surpass Melee.

If you didn't want to try, why are you trying so hard here lol