Could there be a silver-lining with custom equipment?

[JoeInky]

Alright, so I'm pretty sure the majority of the community is in agreement that custom equipment is out and that custom moves are in as long as they don't take too much time in between matches to set up, right?

And there's a large proportion of us worried about the speed of the game, the high landing lag etc that don't believe much is going to be changed by release.

But, as much as we've outright dismissed it, there could be a silver-lining to this:

The fact that equipment apparently has more effects than just attack, defense and speed (the "easy perfect shield" and "high-speed dash" bits), there is potential there that there could be a piece of equipment that reduces landing lag.


How much potential would there be if, for example, before a tournament starts every setup had every character use the exact same equipment that game them more speed, less landing lag and less knockback?

We could have the fast, combo-oriented game that doesn't punish offence that a lot of us want.

Now obviously this is based on the prediction that such equipment exists and that characters would all be able to use the same equipment rather than them being character-specific, but would people be receptive to this method of playing the game, or would some of you rather just use the base game for better or for worse?

 

[D-idara]

Rather use the base game for better.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

That's like trying to "fix" Brawl by playing lightspeed heavy weight metal custom Brawl.

 

[Backgammon]

My problem with this is that there WILL be a piece of custom equipment that is infinitely better than the rest.
It also changes how a character's fundamentals. When special attacks are changed, we can still change and adapt, because the base character works in the same way. However, with equipment, this changes the very basic way that a character works. Far too many variables. There's only so many that can be introduced before it becomes over-saturated and essentially the same as going double-blind.

 

[JoeInky]

That's like trying to "fix" Brawl by playing lightspeed heavy weight metal custom Brawl.

I'd say there's a large difference between increasing speed and lag etc. of a character and increasing the speed of the game.

This wouldn't for example affect projectile speed, whereas just putting it on custom smash in fast mode would.

 

[JoeInky]

My problem with this is that there WILL be a piece of custom equipment that is infinitely better than the rest.
It also changes how a character's fundamentals. When special attacks are changed, we can still change and adapt, because the base character works in the same way. However, with equipment, this changes the very basic way that a character works. Far too many variables. There's only so many that can be introduced before it becomes over-saturated and essentially the same as going double-blind.

I'm not actually suggesting that we use custom equipment at all per say, I'm wondering if we just decided that X, Y and B equipments make for the best gameplay feel and more exciting matches, so we'll force it as a rule that every character uses these pieces of equipment and set that up before the tournament even starts.

If there's ones that just increases the speed slight, reduces landing lag and a bit less knockback and can be used across all characters, then to me that sounds like the perfect version of smash 4, but then the problem is with people who may or may not disagree with that.

 

[Deleted member]

That's like trying to "fix" Brawl by playing lightspeed heavy weight metal custom Brawl.

Someone should host a tournament with this as the ruleset.

 

[Backgammon]

I'm not actually suggesting that we use custom equipment at all per say, I'm wondering if we just decided that X, Y and B equipments make for the best gameplay feel and more exciting matches, so we'll force it as a rule that every character uses these pieces of equipment and set that up before the tournament even starts.

If there's ones that just increases the speed slight, reduces landing lag and a bit less knockback and can be used across all characters, then to me that sounds like the perfect version of smash 4, but then the problem is with people who may or may not disagree with that.

My problem would still be that it sounds like people trying to force what they think their ideal version of Smash 4 would be onto others. I for one, wouldn't play in a tournament where I was forced to play using a way that someone else decided was their best "feel". Everyone plays differently and forcing this sort of equipment onto people that might not want to say, play with a -14 speed penalty and a -50 attack penalty, but a buff in jump power.

 

[ChikoLad]

I personally think that by principle, custom equipment should be experimented with. We know so little about it. Much like custom moves, I feel it's unfair to just write them off. At the very least, separate tournaments using custom elements should be encouraged.

My problem would still be that it sounds like people trying to force what they think their ideal version of Smash 4 would be onto others. I for one, wouldn't play in a tournament where I was forced to play using a way that someone else decided was their best "feel". Everyone plays differently and forcing this sort of equipment onto people that might not want to say, play with a -14 speed penalty and a -50 attack penalty, but a buff in jump power.

Wouldn't forcing the default "no equipment" rule do the exact same thing?

 

[JoeInky]

My problem would still be that it sounds like people trying to force what they think their ideal version of Smash 4 would be onto others. I for one, wouldn't play in a tournament where I was forced to play using a way that someone else decided was their best "feel". Everyone plays differently and forcing this sort of equipment onto people that might not want to say, play with a -14 speed penalty and a -50 attack penalty, but a buff in jump power.

But tournament rules by nature force people into playing a certain way, should we not add a rule if the community at large were able to agree that it was good for the game in the long run? I'm not saying whether this is or isn't yet, but it is something that should be taken into consideration when the game releases.

Some people wouldn't play in a tournament where they were forced to play without items and yet we still have no items as the standard.

 

[Backgammon]

Wouldn't forcing the default "no equipment" rule do the exact same thing?

I don't think so. The original moveset is the "default" and the equipment is a change from the default.

But tournament rules by nature force people into playing a certain style, should we not add a rule if the community at large were able to agree that it was good for the game in the long run?

As far as I can see, the overall community thinks that Smash 4 is looking fine. In the end, I feel that this would turn into the spiritual successor of Meta Knight banning. I don't want this discussion to turn into 2001 vs 2008 (You know what I'm talking about).

Some people wouldn't play in a tournament where they were forced to play without items and yet we still have no items as the standard.

You'd get far more people quitting if they were forced to adhere to say,

-50 Attack
+13 Speed
+17 Defence

Easy powershield
Lowered knockback

I feel this is the same argument as items. It's an external factor that massively changes how the game is played from the regular and may give certain characters massively higher advantage than others.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't think so. The original moveset is the "default" and the equipment is a change from the default.

But forcing the default is doing exactly what you described:

My problem would still be that it sounds like people trying to force what they think their ideal version of Smash 4 would be onto others.

What if the default is not the ideal version of Smash 4 for many people? What if people want a slightly faster Mario, for example, to make him feel a bit more like Melee and give him more combo potential, but sacrifice some damage output (vanilla Mario seems a fair bit stronger than before in terms of damage output)?

 

[JoeInky]

You'd get far more people quitting if they were forced to adhere to say,

-50 Attack
+13 Speed
+17 Defence

Easy powershield
Lowered knockback

I feel this is the same argument as items. It's an external factor that massively changes how the game is played from the regular and may give certain characters massively higher advantage than others.

I'm not saying anything as outlandish as easy power shield, and I don't think that it will be as game changing or affect certain characters as much as items can, especially if the equipment is the same across every character which is what I'm suggesting, it would effectively be just our way making the gameplay a little more fluid and exciting with a bit more speed and less lag so we can get some more interesting combos back and not limit the offense.

 

[Backgammon]

I'm not saying anything as outlandish as easy power shield, and I don't think that it will be as game changing or affect certain characters as much as items can, especially if the equipment is the same across every character which is what I'm suggesting, it would effectively be just our way making the gameplay a little more fluid and exciting with a bit more speed and less lag so we can get some more interesting combos back.

If you have a problem with the very basic physics and mechanics of Smash 4, I would suggest going to play Melee or Project M.
Those games will likely continue after Smash 4 is released and while I have no problem with people making individual small tweaks to their character, forcing that as a blanket seems to be taking a step backwards, rather than forwards. As most people say, Smash 4 is its own thing and seems to be a good balance while remaining competitively viable.

What if the default is not the ideal version of Smash 4 for many people? What if people want a slightly faster Mario, for example, to make him feel a bit more like Melee and give him more combo potential, but sacrifice some damage output (vanilla Mario seems a fair bit stronger than before in terms of damage output)?

While in principle, I wouldn't be against this, we haven't yet seen the extent of how the equipment affects the gameplay. I don't think it will be on the same page as Smash Run, but it looks like it makes a markable difference, just from seeing the stats.
I also feel optimisation would happen far too fast if equipment was allowed.

I do plan to experiment with it over on 3DSA, let me get that out.

 

[JoeInky]

My worst fear would be having the default be the standard, then the game turning out exactly like brawl did but people would be too ingrained to make changes like this.

These matches on the 3DS that we're seeing recently are all well and good, but they don't seem to be abusing the fact that playing defensively is much better than playing offensively, which is almost certainly what will happen at tournaments if playing campy is the best option.

I just don't want another boring smash bros. game both to play and to watch, that's my main worry at the moment.

 

[ChikoLad]

Simply allowing custom moves and equipment will automatically make this game a lot more fun to play and watch, IMO. It guarantees that no two matches will be the same.

 

[JoeInky]

I will say that I think it should only be custom moves left up to player choice though.

I don't think allowing the player to use any custom equipment they want is much of a good decision honestly, we're adding enough time to matches with custom moves as it is.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

If the base game is going to follow boot with the Brawl meta, aka campy playstyle trumps everything else, I'd like to see certain custom equipment being the standard for tourneys, but no way should people freely choose what they're going with. I think we need to see where the game goes first before trying to make these calls though, let it develop a year or two on its own.

 

[Untouch]

Too inconsistent, aren't the stats random?

 

[JoeInky]

Too inconsistent, aren't the stats random?

Nope.

Even if we just agreed not to change any of the speed aspects and just put a piece of equipment on every character that reduced the landing lag, it would go a long way for improving the game.

 

[Veggi]

The problem with this is that most of our tournament rules are made to get rid of things that are obviously anti-competitive such as luck or make certain strategies next to unbeatable such as walk-offs. The game being non-combo oriented and defensive is something that does not diminish competition. That's exactly what Street Fighter is. Street Fighter is a super competitive game where most of the damage comes from spaced attacks and messing up approaches. Plus, if people think that camping and stalling dominates the meta-game they need to learn more about Brawl's meta game.

These are the APEX grand finals for the last three years:

2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyRS7f7zMCo

2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0

Olimar is arguably the campiest character in the entire game and even when he was competing for best player in the world, there was still constant conflict. I don't want this game being micromanaged by people who have no authority to be making decisions on what makes a game competitive.

 

[Renji64]

If it helps for a fast fun and more combo type game i'm down for it. I don't want to play super camp brothers and stand around half of the match.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

If there was a "reduce landing lag" custom equipment, I am pretty sure a lot of people would change their minds.

 

[ChikoLad]

I will say that I think it should only be custom moves left up to player choice though.

I don't think allowing the player to use any custom equipment they want is much of a good decision honestly, we're adding enough time to matches with custom moves as it is.

It really depends on how convenient the menus are (we don't know anything about this yet).

Also if Amiibos can store your character data for this, it will help.

Or, you could transfer data from a 3DS if you have a customisation set up on that.

 

[D-idara]

If it helps for a fast fun and more combo type game i'm down for it. I don't want to play super camp brothers and stand around half of the match.

Funny, I don't want a 'Super Twitchy Brothers'

 

[Senario]

Alright, so I'm pretty sure the majority of the community is in agreement that custom equipment is out and that custom moves are in as long as they don't take too much time in between matches to set up, right?

And there's a large proportion of us worried about the speed of the game, the high landing lag etc that don't believe much is going to be changed by release.

But, as much as we've outright dismissed it, there could be a silver-lining to this:

The fact that equipment apparently has more effects than just attack, defense and speed (the "easy perfect shield" and "high-speed dash" bits), there is potential there that there could be a piece of equipment that reduces landing lag.


How much potential would there be if, for example, before a tournament starts every setup had every character use the exact same equipment that game them more speed, less landing lag and less knockback?

We could have the fast, combo-oriented game that doesn't punish offence that a lot of us want.

Now obviously this is based on the prediction that such equipment exists and that characters would all be able to use the same equipment rather than them being character-specific, but would people be receptive to this method of playing the game, or would some of you rather just use the base game for better or for worse?

I was thinking about this previously, if EVERYBODY used the same custom moves and they were all attribute changes with the same magnitude regardless of character it might make the game play just different enough for a competitive EVO type game to start.

That said, I would prefer vanilla be good for competitive but if this is an option I certainly won't turn it down. Better to have the option than to not have it right?

 

[JCDied4U]

I think we should give normal SM4SH a shot first since it looks really promising and the final product may have the right amount of lag and knockback. However, this may be a great idea for increasing the longevity of the game, if this does turn out to not be as competitive as we want.

 

[JoeInky]

I think we should definitely give the base game a chance for a while.

But if it turns out incredibly disappointing or just plain boring then this could be a potential option to fix it ourselves, rather than have to wait for the next smash bros. game again, hoping that it gets it right this time.