Could Smash Bros be the next Gears of war?

[Gabe Hartzog]

I know it sounds odd comparing a party fighting game with a online shooter but hear me out. When Gears of War 1 and Meele came out, it didn't take long for players to "exploit" mechanics in the game. They best two that are the best examples are wall bouncing and wavedashing. Both mechanics that weren't (seemingly) intended to be in the game and they really gave the games a different flavor. Next comes along GOW 2/Brawl. It is all the sudden "No, we don't want you to play like this, you are going to play the way we want to" and they put in things into the game that force you to play the way the developers wanted. Of course, there was a huge back lash and both companies found themselves between their fans and a rock. With Gow 3, it promised to "level" the playing field, just as Sakurai has promised with SSB4. Now I am not wishing anything bad on SSB4, I really hope it is the Smash Bros we all want. But I have seen this happen before and I am worried that Nintendo might go down the same path. Six months after release, Gow3 laid broken and barren because of the problems it had and trying to "level" the battleground.
Anyway, what is everyone else's thoughts? Do you have a similar story that happened with one of you favorite games?

 

[DonkaFjord]

The thing with smash is each game has a different flavor and niche it tried to fill so I am sure smash 4 will be hated and loved all the same. I wouldn't expect the next smash to be 'just like' a previous installment and each version are like a separate game except for the main concept and I think it will be a new flavor entirely. I just hope people can move on and adapt or at least try it before judging it for not being melee 2.0 or brawl 2.0.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I just hope people can move on and adapt or at least try it before judging it for not being melee 2.0 or brawl 2.0.

That's not necessarily the issue. The problem lies with our concern with whether or or not the game will be will be well polished rather than entirely mimicking either games respective engine. While Balance is an issue, play testing, debugging and appropriate modification of hit/hurt box's is arguably much more important and lend to the over all balance of the game. Players will adapt regardless, whether or not the shift in game play from one respected smash game to another will be accepted and continued to be played as such is another story; this all depends on the developer on whether or not they emphasize on certain aspects of the game (multiplayer being of the utmost importance in my opinion).

 

[DonkaFjord]

That's not necessarily the issue. The problem lies with our concern with whether or or not the game will be will be well polished rather than entirely mimicking either games respective engine. While Balance is an issue, play testing, debugging and appropriate modification of hit/hurt box's is arguably much more important and lend to the over all balance of the game. Players will adapt regardless, whether or not the shift in game play from one respected smash game to another will be accepted and continued to be played as such is another story; this all depends on the developer on whether or not they emphasize on certain aspects of the game (multiplayer being of the utmost importance in my opinion).

They did mention that they noticed they could wavedash in Melee and for brawl they tried to appease the sudden rush of casual gamers and introduce them to the series. But even smash 64 was a different experience from both melee and brawl. Yeah I see what you mean and I agree that polishing is important for the game to be good.

 

[Deleted member]

I never played GoW3. In fact, I only played the Co-Op campaign of GoW2 with my brother and some friends, as well as the Horde mode.

I don't think Smash will ever become anything like GoW, and the main reason being is the design philosophy of both games. As far as I know, GoW was never much about the multiplayer (I think that's more along Halo's turf), but rather about the story and the cinematic experience. I personally never found the Gears multiplayer to be very engaging (it really couldn't keep my attention for more than a couple rounds - the Xbox game that got the most milage in my late teen was Rock Band, so it'd be hard to compete with that), and I think the main reason for that is like I said before, the development team was focused on making the campaign memorable and the story engaging to the player.

Smash Bros is a multiplayer game first and foremost, and thus, Sakurai and his team do indeed place more focus on those aspects of the game (even if they take a wrong stride with tripping and such). The 'exploits' in Melee were never accidental, some like L-Canceling were very much programmed in BY the developers, wave dashing is theorized to have been the same case as well.

And well, going over to Smash 4, I think you can rest assured. Sakurai has gone on record to say that gameplay is his biggest focus with this title, and Nintendo even made sure to get extra help from Namco to work on the game balance (I would have prefered ASW, but beggars can't be choosers).

Anyway, like Donka said, don't ever expect another Melee, cause that won't happen (unless they do an HD remake), instead this game will have a unique 'flavor' much different from its predecessors, one that I'm confident will have more competitive focus than Brawl.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I know it sounds odd comparing a party fighting game with a online shooter but hear me out. When Gears of War 1 and Meele came out, it didn't take long for players to "exploit" mechanics in the game. They best two that are the best examples are wall bouncing and wavedashing. Both mechanics that weren't (seemingly) intended to be in the game and they really gave the games a different flavor. Next comes along GOW 2/Brawl. It is all the sudden "No, we don't want you to play like this, you are going to play the way we want to" and they put in things into the game that force you to play the way the developers wanted. Of course, there was a huge back lash and both companies found themselves between their fans and a rock. With Gow 3, it promised to "level" the playing field, just as Sakurai has promised with SSB4. Now I am not wishing anything bad on SSB4, I really hope it is the Smash Bros we all want. But I have seen this happen before and I am worried that Nintendo might go down the same path. Six months after release, Gow3 laid broken and barren because of the problems it had and trying to "level" the battleground.
Anyway, what is everyone else's thoughts? Do you have a similar story that happened with one of you favorite games?

Are you me?

Whats your gamertag?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jesus, not a single thread on this entire forum that has expressed concern or worry about SSB4 has done so without citing Melee.

Can you people just freaking drop it already? No one on this board cares about Melee, because if they did, they'd be posting on the Melee boards. I will eat my hat if I actually see a well-thought out thread that displays concern for SSB4's development process and DOESN'T have the word "Melee" anywhere in it.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Jesus, not a single thread on this entire forum that has expressed concern or worry about SSB4 has done so without citing Melee.

Can you people just freaking drop it already? No one on this board cares about Melee, because if they did, they'd be posting on the Melee boards. I will eat my hat if I actually see a well-thought out thread that displays concern for SSB4's development process and DOESN'T have the word "Melee" anywhere in it.

Can you blame em though?

Pffftt.....RealTalk.....

Lmfao people te......

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Forget it......

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Jesus, not a single thread on this entire forum that has expressed concern or worry about SSB4 has done so without citing Melee.

Can you people just freaking drop it already? No one on this board cares about Melee, because if they did, they'd be posting on the Melee boards. I will eat my hat if I actually see a well-thought out thread that displays concern for SSB4's development process and DOESN'T have the word "Melee" anywhere in it.

Just as you have never posted on this forum without blatantly attacking it for no reason.

And even if they mentioned Melee, what is your gripe with the game? It shouldn't matter which game they mention as long as the argument presented when compared to any game has supporting evidence that clearly and concisely indicates a valid point. Why is Melee mention so much? My guess would have to be that it stands as the most well polished game in the Smash Bros. series game play wise, which is of course the most important thing to many players here, especially when additional content is already a given. The people who mention Melee, contrary to your belief, really care about Melee. It is mentioned because players want a game with the well polished game play and competitive success that Melee had, not a carbon copy of the game.

If you can't deal with forum users freedom of expression to discuss a game then you should leave, as you are going to get a lot of that here given the freedom of speech.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I know it sounds odd comparing a party fighting game with a online shooter but hear me out. When Gears of War 1 and Meele came out, it didn't take long for players to "exploit" mechanics in the game. They best two that are the best examples are wall bouncing and wavedashing. Both mechanics that weren't (seemingly) intended to be in the game and they really gave the games a different flavor. Next comes along GOW 2/Brawl. It is all the sudden "No, we don't want you to play like this, you are going to play the way we want to" and they put in things into the game that force you to play the way the developers wanted. Of course, there was a huge back lash and both companies found themselves between their fans and a rock. With Gow 3, it promised to "level" the playing field, just as Sakurai has promised with SSB4. Now I am not wishing anything bad on SSB4, I really hope it is the Smash Bros we all want. But I have seen this happen before and I am worried that Nintendo might go down the same path. Six months after release, Gow3 laid broken and barren because of the problems it had and trying to "level" the battleground.
Anyway, what is everyone else's thoughts? Do you have a similar story that happened with one of you favorite games?

PSASBR

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just as you have never posted on this forum without blatantly attacking it for no reason.

And even if they mentioned Melee, what is your gripe with the game? It shouldn't matter which game they mention as long as the argument presented when compared to any game has supporting evidence that clearly and concisely indicates a valid point. Why is Melee mention so much? My guess would have to be that it stands as the most well polished game in the Smash Bros. series game play wise, which is of course the most important thing to many players here, especially when additional content is already a given. The people who mention Melee, contrary to your belief, really care about Melee. It is mentioned because players want a game with the well polished game play and competitive success that Melee had, not a carbon copy of the game.

If you can't deal with forum users freedom of expression to discuss a game then you should leave, as you are going to get a lot of that here given the freedom of speech.

That's funny, considering the very post you quoted has no mention of any attack on Melee, as a game, which immediately invalidates your claim. Well done.

I have no gripes with the game. I love Melee and played it for years. But, I'm sick of Melee fans coming to the SSB4 boards specifically to *****. These are the SSB4 boards, if you want to complain about it not being close enough to Melee, for good or bad, take it to the Melee boards.

Besides, this is a privately-owned forum. Freedom of speech, for better or worse, doesn't apply here (there is plenty of court precedent on the matter). If you notice, some language is blocked, which is a violation of freedom of speech, too. Don't be a smartass and purposefully cause trouble.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

(I'm not a brony, this gif just fits my thoughts on this thread near perfectly)

I fear this may turn into another Brawl VS Melee debate. Or flaming involving Melee, at least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Jack, I have serious respect for you, you've done a lot of work involving smash. No one is going to listen to you if you are rude to everyone, even if you are right on a subject. That's all I have to say.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I fear this may turn into another Brawl VS Melee debate. Or flaming involving Melee, at least.

Its heading that way... But really melee and brawl are different games not a sequel and a prequel. They both have pros and cons and both are played by a group of people who like them. Overall one may be better for competitive fans and one may be better for casual fans but neither will be an end-all perfect game. We are kind of derailing this thread. People can say what they want whether its true in your eyes or not, but respecting their opinion is all you can do (well or you could attack them, your choice.)

 

[firebro17]

I never played GoW3. In fact, I only played the Co-Op campaign of GoW2 with my brother and some friends, as well as the Horde mode.



Anyway, like Donka said, don't ever expect another Melee, cause that won't happen (unless they do an HD remake.

If they make an HD remake like with Windwaker with Online That would litterly kick ass. But of course it's never going to happen.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

That's funny, considering the very post you quoted has no mention of any attack on Melee, as a game, which immediately invalidates your claim. Well done.

I have no gripes with the game. I love Melee and played it for years. But, I'm sick of Melee fans coming to the SSB4 boards specifically to *****. These are the SSB4 boards, if you want to complain about it not being close enough to Melee, for good or bad, take it to the Melee boards.

Besides, this is a privately-owned forum. Freedom of speech, for better or worse, doesn't apply here (there is plenty of court precedent on the matter). If you notice, some language is blocked, which is a violation of freedom of speech, too. Don't be a smartass and purposefully cause trouble.

Dude what is your beef? What's up with the personal attacks? And given your statement, calling me a smartass is the most hypocritical thing i've seen today lol. Practice what you preach.

You aren't seeing my point, being that when you, particularly address Melee, it has a negative stigma about it, and also make it seems as if the problems with these forums simply stem from the people who play Melee? Get real, dude.

Whatever man, I said my piece.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Dude what is your beef? What's up with the personal attacks? And given your statement, calling me a smartass is the most hypocritical thing i've seen today lol. Practice what you preach.

You aren't seeing my point, being that when you, particularly address Melee, it has a negative stigma about it, and also make it seems as if the problems with these forums simply stem from the people who play Melee? Get real, dude.

Whatever man, I said my piece.

Like Melee all you want, have whatever preferences you want, but if you feel it necessary to come to another game's boards and profess how much better Melee is than everything else and how everything that's not Melee will be / is a failure or inferior, then yes, you're a problem. Melee is a great game, but this is not the place to bring it up in every thread, because it's the SSB4 boards. If I were a mod, I'd instantly lock all Melee-related threads on this subforum and infract anyone who brought up Melee with the aim of judging other versions of Smash; if any mods read this, I seriously suggest you start doing so.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Like Melee all you want, have whatever preferences you want, but if you feel it necessary to come to another game's boards and profess how much better Melee is than everything else and how everything that's not Melee will be / is a failure or inferior, then yes, you're a problem. Melee is a great game, but this is not the place to bring it up in every thread, because it's the SSB4 boards. If I were a mod, I'd instantly lock all Melee-related threads on this subforum and infract anyone who brought up Melee with the aim of judging other versions of Smash; if any mods read this, I seriously suggest you start doing so.

Here is what you keep overlooking. I'm not one of those people you garner so much hate for (Just an FYI, I play all of the smash games). Did you even read the first statement I made in this thread? Not how can I be a problem if i'm just making a generalized statement, because the word Melee appears in there doesn't indicate any bias. I feel like you are approaching me with that "one bad apple spoils the bunch" attitude, where you think I believe I have some superiority complex. The issue is that you aren't even reading what i'm saying, rather you get livid and tunnel vision-y for no reason. Those people who believe Melee is the alpha and the omega of games aren't the same as those who genuinely love the game.

What bugs me is that you have no issue when someone mentions SSB64 or Brawl, which comes off as bias to some people. Having an arrogant air about oneself for supporting a game is not mutually exclusive to melee players, as it exist in all games and all types of people.

 

[Vkrm]

Like Melee all you want, have whatever preferences you want, but if you feel it necessary to come to another game's boards and profess how much better Melee is than everything else and how everything that's not Melee will be / is a failure or inferior, then yes, you're a problem. Melee is a great game, but this is not the place to bring it up in every thread, because it's the SSB4 boards. If I were a mod, I'd instantly lock all Melee-related threads on this subforum and infract anyone who brought up Melee with the aim of judging other versions of Smash; if any mods read this, I seriously suggest you start doing so.

Oh wow. You don't think that's a bit biased? You would ban all melee discussions related to smash 4 because you find them annoying? Lets be real, it's not the love that people have for melee that is bothersome, it's the disrespect they have for brawl and smash 4 that gets under your skin. I might have the same opinion if all the criticism aimed at brawl wasn't 98% accurate.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh wow. You don't think that's a bit biased? You would ban all melee discussions related to smash 4 because you find them annoying? Lets be real, it's not the love that people have for melee that is bothersome, it's the disrespect they have for brawl and smash 4 that gets under your skin. I might have the same opinion if all the criticism aimed at brawl wasn't 98% accurate.

No, I would ban all Melee discussion because, without fail, they devolve into Brawl bashing and because there's a better place to discuss it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

No, I would ban all Melee discussion because, without fail, they devolve into Brawl bashing and because there's a better place to discuss it.

See now that's just presumptuous. you act as if people who play the other smash games are incapable of doing the same. A majority of the players who "Bash" Brawl have only said the truth about the game in my experience.

Honestly bro, you need to chill, as this wasn't really a big issue until you brought the pink elephant here with you. You are being biased, man.

 

[Jack Kieser]

See now that's just presumptuous. you act as if people who play the other smash games are incapable of doing the same. A majority of the players who "Bash" Brawl have only said the truth about the game in my experience.

Honestly bro, you need to chill, as this wasn't really a big issue until you brought the pink elephant here with you. You are being biased, man.

They're very capable of doing the same. But they don't. I don't see SSB4 hopefuls going to the Melee boards and posting threads entitled "Will SSB4 kill Melee and the future children of all Melee players?!" or "Is anyone else worried that SSB4 will show how broken Melee really was?", and if they did, I'd tell them not to do that, either.

I find it funny that you still refuse to grapple with the fact that this is a board for SSB4 discussion, and how exactly Melee discussion doesn't belong here because there is already a dedicated board for it.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

They're very capable of doing the same. But they don't. I don't see SSB4 hopefuls going to the Melee boards and posting threads entitled "Will SSB4 kill Melee and the future children of all Melee players?!" or "Is anyone else worried that SSB4 will show how broken Melee really was?", and if they did, I'd tell them not to do that, either.

I find it funny that you still refuse to grapple with the fact that this is a board for SSB4 discussion, and how exactly Melee discussion doesn't belong here because there is already a dedicated board for it.

They don't? That is absolutely not true. I guess you've never been to All is Brawl. Either way, no one is doing that here, and anyone who does so is just being a forum troll; Melee players do not all fall within this category.

I know this is a SSB4 discussion, but it's still smash bros so it's hard not to make comparisons between the games. And if Melee can't be discussed, the same applies to both Brawl and SSB64. Previous installments of a franchise will always be compared to each other. This is fighting and inevitability.

 

[Vkrm]

They're very capable of doing the same. But they don't. I don't see SSB4 hopefuls going to the Melee boards and posting threads entitled "Will SSB4 kill Melee and the future children of all Melee players?!" or "Is anyone else worried that SSB4 will show how broken Melee really was?", and if they did, I'd tell them not to do that, either.

I find it funny that you still refuse to grapple with the fact that this is a board for SSB4 discussion, and how exactly Melee discussion doesn't belong here because there is already a dedicated board for it.

I disagree. If the topic of discussion is "how bad does smash 4 suck," that thread would most certainly belong in the smash 4 sections of the boards. You might see more people hating on melee, if melee wasn't so damn good.

 

[Jack Kieser]

They don't? That is absolutely not true. I guess you've never been to All is Brawl. Either way, no one is doing that here, and anyone who does so is just being a forum troll; Melee players do not all fall within this category.

Wait, we have a subforum named All is Brawl? Oh, you're talking about an entirely different website. How is that relevant to the discussions going on in our subforums, again? I couldn't care less what people do on other websites. I'm talking about SWF.

I know this is a SSB4 discussion, but it's still smash bros so it's hard not to make comparisons between the games. And if Melee can't be discussed, the same applies to both Brawl and SSB64. Previous installments of a franchise will always be compared to each other. This is fighting and inevitability.

And, comparisons would be fine if that's all they were. But, whenever Melee is brought up, a significant enough number of Melee players to be distressing make passive-aggressive shots towards Brawl and preemptive shots at SSB4 because of whatever stupid reason du jour of the day, be it WD'ing and L-cancelling, or combo differences, or maybe just cheap shots about the playerbase cultures, and everyone else feels necessary to feed the trolls and defend themselves instead of hitting "report post", getting angry in the process and making actually aggressive posts telling those aforementioned Melee players to shut up and go away. This doesn't happen when people bring up SSB64 or Brawl because the playerbase for those games have not systematically demonized other games in the series the way Melee players did, on the whole, for the first few years of Brawl's lifespan (and certain posters continue to do to this day).

If those other games had the kind of vitriolic posting happen around them that Melee does, I'd infract for that, too. And if it ever gets that bad, I'd call for those infractions the same way. And, hey, as I already said in my very first post in this thread, if someone could post something in this forum concerning Melee that wasn't a thinly-veiled post about how awesome Melee is and how trash every other Smash game is by comparison, I'd be more than welcoming. As it stands, though, you cannot show me even a single thread in the entire history of the SSB4 boards that has Melee as part of the topic in which it is not even at least passive-aggressively bashing games not named Melee because of how obviously inferior they are, including this thread.

I disagree. If the topic of discussion is "how bad does smash 4 suck," that thread would most certainly belong in the smash 4 sections of the boards. You might see more people hating on melee, if melee wasn't so damn good.

Which I'd still close, if I were a mod, because the game isn't out yet, and if things continue the way they're going until release day, I'd still infract people for bringing up Melee because the game's theoretical suckiness could be discussed without bringing up Melee as a passive-aggressive way of bashing players who chose not to play it.

 

[Gabe Hartzog]

Guys I wasn't trying to bash any of the Smash Bros games. I was just trying to start a topic that I was thinking about because the community is split. I am just worried that all this fan fighting could cause some sort of problem. I cant wait for SSB4. I am not even a tourney level player, I just love the gameplay that each installment has to offer. I was just making a comparison on what I have seen in the past with one of my favorite games series that I had to leave behind. I love every Smash Bros game and I was just trying to talk openly to the community, that's all.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I vote this thread is locked. There's too much rage.