Corrin Dragon Lunge Kick Shield Safety

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So after a couple hours of testing I've successfully compiled at list of every character that can punish Dragon Lunge on their shield. These tests were done with close to maximum spacing on Dragon Lunge so like any move make sure to space it properly. These tests were also done with Corrin's slide not being cut short by a ledge. The best options after doing the kick include shield(frame 1), spot dodge(frame 3), roll(frame 4), f tilt(frame 8), turn around jab or d tilt (frame 5), counter(frame 6) or on especially slow characters another immediate dragon lunge(frame 4) if you think they will approach with shield. Immediate Dragon Lunge after a first one can break shields on smaller characters. Most characters however will take 3 to break their shield. Dragon Lunge being your fastest offensive option here it is arguably the best one. I do not recommend overly relying on defensive options but spot dodge is good for conditioning attacks which can be countered in certain match ups for an early kill. Have fun abusing Corrin's 19 damage frame 4 move. :3

Characters that can never punish:

1. Mario
2. Peach
3. Wario
4. Game and Watch
5. Link
6. Zelda
7. Ganondorf
8. Toon link
9. Samus
10. Pit
11. Palutena
12. Marth
13. Ike
14. Duck Hunt
15. Kirby
16. Dedede
17. Pikachu
18. Charizard
19. Lucario
20. Jigglypuff
21. Ness
22. Villager
23. Wii Fit Trainer
24. Shulk
25. Dr. Mario
26. Dark Pit
27. Lucina
28. Mega Man
29. Lucas
30. Roy
31. Ryu
32. Cloud
33. Corrin
34. Bayonetta

Can only punish dragon lunge through their shield but not away*:

1. Luigi (dash attack)
2. Bowser (dash attack)
3. Yoshi (dash attack)
4. Rosa (dash attack)
5. Bowser Jr. (dash attack)
6. Donkey Kong (dash attack)
7. Diddy (dash attack and banana)
8. Mac (dash attack)
9. Zss (dash attack)
10. Greninja (dash attack)
11. Rob(full charge gyro)
12. Captain Falcon (dash attack)
13. Olimar(white pikmin throw)
14. Pacman(key throw)

Can always Punish:

1. Sheik(needle)
2. Meta Knight(dash attack)
3. Fox(laser or dash attack)
4. Falco(laser)
5. Sonic(dash grab or dash attack)
6. Diddy(Super glide toss banana)
7. Mewtwo(Dash attack)
8. Robin(Thoron)

* Through implies going through their shield in the same direction you were originally facing when you did the pin to the ground. Away means the opposite direction you were facing. This distinction is made as doing it in the same direction cause characters to receive shield push back in the direction you are moving thus making them closer to you and therefore easier to punish.

 

[Raziek]

Excellent work!

DLK so goooooood.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Just be aware, while it migh be safe on shield itself, jigglypuff has a strong punish against DLK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How is the hitbox on the kick? Any kind of disjoint?

 

[Arrei]

If the number of times I've been hit out of it is any indication, it at least trades with everything. Loses completely to disjoints if they cut your foot. Tends to throw me off as I forget it's technically an aerial attack.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Thank you for doing this; this is incredibly useful. I knew it was relatively safe, but I didn't know there were so few characters that can punish it.

 

[Raziek]

How is the hitbox on the kick? Any kind of disjoint?

Quite large. Breaks clean through most projectiles. (Metal Blade comes to mind from a play session earlier today.)

 

[Lavani]

The fastest you can do Dragon Lunge is frame 7. The stab from grounded sideB is frame 4, but you also have a 3 frame hop at the start.

How is the hitbox on the kick? Any kind of disjoint?

I've seen it beat things I definitely wasn't expecting it to. The move just has one big hitbox that keeps it from whiffing crouching opponents (though the late hit is smaller and can whiff), it makes for a bizarre-looking move but it has a ton of disjoint in certain areas.

Spoiler

 

[Skitrel]

The fastest you can do Dragon Lunge is frame 7. The stab from grounded sideB is frame 4, but you also have a 3 frame hop at the start.

Sauce?

Still haven't seen anything other than heresay on this. No evidence for it has so far been provided from either datafiles or slowed down frame-by-frame video footage counting.

Cookies for sauce.

 

[Lavani]

Turns out it's actually frame 8, not frame 7. My bad.

I can't make a very good gif for this, but this is the best I can do:

Data file for sideB hop, allows you to stab on frame 5 (meaning no actions available 1-4f)

Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=1)
Unknown_23A(Unknown=0x2)
Unknown_425(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x10)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=5)
Unknown_020(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x0)
Script_End()

 

[Skitrel]

Turns out it's actually frame 8, not frame 7. My bad.

I can't make a very good gif for this, but this is the best I can do:

Data file for sideB hop, allows you to stab on frame 5 (meaning no actions available 1-4f)

Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=1)
Unknown_23A(Unknown=0x2)
Unknown_425(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x10)
Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=5)
Unknown_020(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x0)
Script_End()

Thank you for finally being the person to completely put this unknown to rest. I have seen countless different numbers for this and 8 has rarely ever been the number cited. Just to be completely certain, that should be 15 frames out of shield correct? Shielddrop 7frames + 8frames.

You don't know how happy you've made me and a few others that have been seeking more conclusive framedata.

 

[MockRock]

Are you sure that Little Mac and Sonic aren't always able to punish you with a dash attack? That's been my experience so far, but it's possible that I may be swinging away slightly after I should be.

 

[Skitrel]

I guess I'll put this here as the safety of Pin/Kick seems to be the best use for this.

SO, I've been going over possibilities with pin and the methods used by opponents to punish it, particularly the opponents that can chase us fast enough. I did a whole bunch of liberal spying cough research on the other character boards too.

The universal advice seems to be "just shield" and "stay in shield".

Does anyone know the total number of frames that we stay in pin for? I did a rough count on a video and it seems to be around 2.5 to 3 seconds.

Based on this. I present:

(140*0.13)+(8+3+20*1.19)=53

Assuming Pin gets 8 damage on shield from not being a tipper, if we're in pin for 140 to 180 frames then we can shield break with small DFS large BITE immediately after the pin cancels. If they stay in shield they will suffer 18.2 to 23.4 shield damage. (I need the exact total frames to calculate precisely.

We don't have lag after pin cancels and can initiate DFS immediately before touching the ground. If they drop shield they're going to get hit by it, if they do not drop shield they're going to take a shield break.

I suspect this MIGHT be punishable by simple attacking Corrin after the DFS shot, however I also think it might only require a half charge. If pin lasts a full 180 frames then we do 58.2 damage.

Expanding on this, we can autocancel fair, so we could also add fair on as damage prior to the pin for another 7.5, for an even lower necessary charge on bite, potentially only requiring 6 damage.

In all likelihood I don't think opponents will continue holding shield after fair>pin plus a bunch of shield depletion. They're going to realise that kick could hit them as it gets lower and lower.

Thought from this theory exercise: In a matchup with a character that can punish pin? Just stay in pin, do nothing. Drop and act, either with shield, the above, or other options.

I would be very interested to hear what other conclusions people have come to in these punishable matchups and what strategies people have in use. This is an area that Corrin can/should improve on.

EDIT: Fixed maths not including damage multiplier.

 

[Deadpool12]

Spoiler

So after a couple hours of testing I've successfully compiled at list of every character that can punish Dragon Lunge on their shield. These tests were done with close to maximum spacing on Dragon Lunge so like any move make sure to space it properly. These tests were also done with Corrin's slide not being cut short by a ledge. The best options after doing the kick include shield(frame 1), spot dodge(frame 3), roll(frame 4), f tilt(frame 8), turn around jab or d tilt (frame 5), counter(frame 6) or on especially slow characters another immediate dragon lunge(frame 4) if you think they will approach with shield. Immediate Dragon Lunge after a first one can break shields on smaller characters. Most characters however will take 3 to break their shield. Dragon Lunge being your fastest offensive option here it is arguably the best one. I do not recommend overly relying on defensive options but spot dodge is good for conditioning attacks which can be countered in certain match ups for an early kill. Have fun abusing Corrin's 19 damage frame 4 move. :3

Characters that can never punish:

1. Mario
2. Peach
3. Wario
4. Game and Watch
5. Link
6. Zelda
7. Ganondorf
8. Toon link
9. Samus
10. Pit
11. Palutena
12. Marth
13. Ike
14. Duck Hunt
15. Kirby
16. Dedede
17. Pikachu
18. Charizard
19. Lucario
20. Jigglypuff
21. Ness
22. Villager
23. Wii Fit Trainer
24. Shulk
25. Dr. Mario
26. Dark Pit
27. Lucina
28. Mega Man
29. Lucas
30. Roy
31. Ryu
32. Cloud
33. Corrin
34. Bayonetta

Can only punish dragon lunge through their shield but not away*:

1. Luigi (dash attack)
2. Bowser (dash attack)
3. Yoshi (dash attack)
4. Rosa (dash attack)
5. Bowser Jr. (dash attack)
6. Donkey Kong (dash attack)
7. Diddy (dash attack and banana)
8. Mac (dash attack)
9. Zss (dash attack)
10. Greninja (dash attack)
11. Rob(full charge gyro)
12. Captain Falcon (dash attack)
13. Olimar(white pikmin throw)
14. Pacman(key throw)

Can always Punish:

1. Sheik(needle)
2. Meta Knight(dash attack)
3. Fox(laser or dash attack)
4. Falco(laser)
5. Sonic(dash grab or dash attack)
6. Diddy(Super glide toss banana)
7. Mewtwo(Dash attack)
8. Robin(Thoron)

* Through implies going through their shield in the same direction you were originally facing when you did the pin to the ground. Away means the opposite direction you were facing. This distinction is made as doing it in the same direction cause characters to receive shield push back in the direction you are moving thus making them closer to you and therefore easier to punish.

Thanks man this helps a lot!

 

[Arrei]

In all likelihood I don't think opponents will continue holding shield after fair>pin plus a bunch of shield depletion. They're going to realise that kick could hit them as it gets lower and lower.

Thought from this theory exercise: In a matchup with a character that can punish pin? Just stay in pin, do nothing. Drop and act, either with shield, the above, or other options.

I would be very interested to hear what other conclusions people have come to in these punishable matchups and what strategies people have in use. This is an area that Corrin can/should improve on.

EDIT: Fixed maths not including damage multiplier.

On this topic, I do believe people won't be likely to keep holding shield once they see us waiting after a blocked pin. This is because I've actually landed an awful lot of kicks by waiting as long as I can then kicking - I don't know if this is because I'm booting them in the head after their shield has shrunk, or if they're deciding to drop the shield to punish, but the result is the same either way - either they see we're waiting on something and are deciding to move in, or they're going to cotton onto waiting being unsafe towards the end of the pin duration.

 

[John12346]

I feel obligated to mention, that Limit Cloud can get a Dash Attack or Limit Cross Slash if you do a shield cross-up kick, or if you misspace the pin and attempt to kick away.

You should also check to see if other characters with modifiers (Speed Shulk, Deep Breathing Wii Fit(increases her walk speed only), etc.) can catch up to Corrin in these situations.

Also, to my knowledge, Sheik can also always get the punish with a sour Dash Attack, but only just barely.