Controlling the stage with Ice Climbers

[Nintendude]

Other than being stupidly inconsistent with technical things, this is my biggest weakness. I let the opponent run freely, push me around the stage, and I give up ground way too easily. I know that stage control is a key element to high level play, but how do you go about doing it with ICs? Even simple situations seem to trip me up.

For example, lets say I'm facing a Fox, he gets a little too close, and then he starts dashing at me. One of 3 things typically happens:

1. I run away and lose ground.
2. I shield and risk getting grabbed or start getting swarmed.
3. I get shined and start fighting to get back in control.

Usually I'm unable to react fast enough to attack before Fox gets the shine out, and in all of these situations, I've completely lost control of the stage and the space around me. Another simple situation is Marth camping away with down-tilt/fair. I tend to get pushed to the edge of the stage and then get f-smashed unless I'm able to trick him into leaving an opening, but I'm not able to do that reliably.

I also just in general have a hard time doing the exact opposite: pressuring opponents and maintaining a presence on the stage. Since ICs lack spammable moves and have a pretty bad air game, I always feel too limited to do anything but get close with my shield and hope the opponent does something stupid. A lot of my game currently revolves around squeezing in a hit or grab somewhere and getting a quick kill, which I am actually pretty good at. I think it's the only reason I can still beat people who are better than me.

Please enlighten me, fellow ICs players.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I am a very very spamy ice climber player. I ice block camp and billzard people out and more than 1/2 of the time I spam the living crap out of wavesmashing they can be very spamy I believe the could easily be the gayest in the game or at least in the top 5.

yeah de-synces are very nice because to can fight and wait at the same time like ice block with nana and wait or wd up for a grab.

But yeah if you fought me you would be like S*** can you down-smash anymore?

 

[Nintendude]

The problem I have with desynching is it just creates an annoying little wall that isn't hard at all to get past (or they just shoot you with stuff). It requires too much room to get something started and in doing so you tend to put yourself closer to the edge.

I'm not sure you who play against, but wavesmash spamming gets you killed against anyone good.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

if you wavedash in and out and avoid junk and wait for the right time you can land enough to kill. People tell me that somethings don't work like a random side-B as pichu but it can if you know when to be random. But yeah it's not wise to spam like I do. But you can wd in and do what you need your wd enough to mess with them. maybe wd sheild if they f-smash. But yeah talk oder people's advice I was just saying the have spamable moves.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Other than being stupidly inconsistent with technical things, this is my biggest weakness. I let the opponent run freely, push me around the stage, and I give up ground way too easily. I know that stage control is a key element to high level play, but how do you go about doing it with ICs? Even simple situations seem to trip me up.

I'm not sure what to say about this other than that you should know what positions are good for ICs to be in and try to avoid bad ones. For example, on levels like Battlefield and Dreamland, I like to be on the floor near the center, but still kind of close to the outermost platforms, because I can't immediately be shoved to the sides, which is an awful position for ICs, but I can still access the platforms should I need to. Trying to maintain the very center is also fine on a ton of levels, although I tend not to do that much since it's often harder to KO there and I don't like the way some of the good characters can approach you from platforms when you're at the center, if that makes any sense.

For example, lets say I'm facing a Fox, he gets a little too close, and then he starts dashing at me. One of 3 things typically happens:

1. I run away and lose ground.
2. I shield and risk getting grabbed or start getting swarmed.
3. I get shined and start fighting to get back in control.

Usually I'm unable to react fast enough to attack before Fox gets the shine out, and in all of these situations, I've completely lost control of the stage and the space around me. Another simple situation is Marth camping away with down-tilt/fair. I tend to get pushed to the edge of the stage and then get f-smashed unless I'm able to trick him into leaving an opening, but I'm not able to do that reliably.

These sound more like match-up problems than stage control ones, although I can see how stage control is relevant. If the Fox is running at you and you think he's going to approach with shine/drill/nair/grab/etc. and you don't have a lot of time to react, angled-up ftilt is really good since it's fast and beats all of his near-ground approaches.

Are you looking for advice on how to regain stage control? Getting back from the side of the stage against Fox can be hard. Due to platforms and whatnot, Fox probably won't be doing a lot of full-jump aerials, so angled-up ftilt is again pretty safe (edit: wait, I was being stupid. Yeah, Foxes do like full-jump bair in this sort of situation on some levels). Sometimes I just roll towards the center of the stage and take a hit if I think it'll help me get back to the center. If there's a platform above you, wavelanding on it towards the center of the stage is decently safe.

It can be really hard to regain momentum against Marth. Approaching him while facing backwards can be good since bair OoS is one of the better ways you have of getting around his wall. If he's applying a lot of pressure and you're not in a good position to do that, there are a couple things that can work really well. One thing I like to do is retreat really far back and then use platforms to maneuver back to the center, although this is risky for obvious reasons. Sometimes I just try to brute force my way through the wall with repeated wavedashes OoS; I think it's important that you don't lightshield if you want to try this since you don't slide as far, although this isn't an option if your shield isn't strong enough to protect you while not light. If the Marth is doing double fairs and your tech skill is on point, after the first fair, you can often quickly wavedash OoS under him and dsmash, although I don't think this works if the Marth's spacing is very precise. Then again, people tend to be more prone to imprecise spacing when aggressively pressuring you.

Retreating ice blocks are also okay.

I also just in general have a hard time doing the exact opposite: pressuring opponents and maintaining a presence on the stage. Since ICs lack spammable moves and have a pretty bad air game, I always feel too limited to do anything but get close with my shield and hope the opponent does something stupid. A lot of my game currently revolves around squeezing in a hit or grab somewhere and getting a quick kill, which I am actually pretty good at. I think it's the only reason I can still beat people who are better than me.

Against most good characters, I don't think trying to approach with the shield is a very good idea. ICs generally have fairly limited OoS options and shielding a lot against people with good spacing is often an invitation to let them gain control of the match.

I don't really approach at all unless I'm really confident that I can catch the opponent off-guard. I like to maintain a pretty close distance from my opponent and feign approaches a lot and punish his approaches; oftentimes I'm only genuinely aggressive once I'm in control, and if I lose momentum, I just try to go back to my usual positioning game.

Regarding pressuring opponents, keep in mind that a lot of people resort to certain passive options once you gain control. Space animals often like to jump if you can push them to the edge; short up uair is a really good move for beating this that has a lot of combo potential. A lot of other characters will resort to roll if you get close to them when they're near the edge. Similarly, if you're in a position where it looks like you might be able to get a guaranteed grab, but maybe not, a lot of people will try to buffer a roll or spot dodge, in which case you can just stand next to them and react to what they do and then grab. This varies a lot by character, though.

Is this the sort of advice you're looking for?

 

[Nintendude]

This is definitely the kind of input I'm looking for, and I really appreciate your advice. Usually when I lose I can pinpoint specific mistakes I made, and typically it's simple things like bad spacing, falling for tricks, or technical mishaps. However, in the Fox and Marth matchups I'm pretty sure it's because I find myself getting stuck at the edge of the stage too much. I actually tend to use the same tactics you pointed out - rolling and wavedashing around the platforms - but I really want to try to avoid getting in those situations in the first place.

It's really hard to avoid it against Fox since all he has to do is shine you and you're at the edge of the stage, but I feel like Marth should be much easier to deal with. The issue is that a down-tilt spamming Marth seems unapproachable (trying to waveshield into it and punish with Bair doesn't seem to work). He can poke away and push you to the edge as you fail to do anything about it. Any tips here?

Oddly enough, I find that Marth is the matchup I win most consistently at tournaments (last tournament I went to I beat G$ and I only recall losing to HBK's Marth in my entire smash career), but all I really do is get lucky and roll behind a forward-smash and punish really hard. Fox on the other hand is probably my tournament bane.

The only other character where stage control appears to be an obvious issue for me is vs. Peach, but I find that a co-op squall can easily get you out of bad situations against her.

 

[TresChikon]

Space animals often like to jump if you can push them to the edge; short up uair is a really good move for beating this that has a lot of combo potential. A lot of other characters will resort to roll if you get close to them when they're near the edge.

If you force someone to the ledge, it's just poor spacing on their part if they try to jump or roll. Good players will usually retreat to the ledge where they could use that positioning to turn the tables if you're not precise with your ledgeplay.

That in mind, I wouldn't pursue Fox or anyone with a decent ledgegame too far off since considering Fox's great ledgestalls and broken a** ledgedash he could easily regain stage control from you if you misspace anything.

I believe patience would be more beneficial if your opponent is just as smart with their zoning as you are. However, if they DO misspace by choosing to roll, jump, spotdodge or generally just panicking, pressuring them should be more than fine.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's really hard to avoid it against Fox since all he has to do is shine you and you're at the edge of the stage, but I feel like Marth should be much easier to deal with. The issue is that a down-tilt spamming Marth seems unapproachable (trying to waveshield into it and punish with Bair doesn't seem to work). He can poke away and push you to the edge as you fail to do anything about it. Any tips here?

Yes, the shine can be a huge pain. One of my top priorities whenever I play against a good Fox is to pay attention to how he likes to land shines and then devote a lot of energy to avoiding it. For example, against Foxes that drillshine or run -> shine a lot, I use ftilt often. I also like fair and nair if the Fox isn't too close for either of those to be unsafe. Against Foxes that like to land aerial shines or shines after full jump aerials, I just try to avoiding being next to them when they're above me unless I think I can hit them with short hop uair or utilt. I generally play extremely conservatively against Fox and don't throw out any random laggy moves unless I think I have a really good chance of landing them.

Marth is odd. I've had a reasonable amount of success with bair, but I agree that it doesn't work if the Marth is being really patient and very cautious. There are only a couple really good Marth mains in Socal at the moment and neither are very active, but I've played one of them a lot and he plays the match-up in a way that I think reflects your concerns; he doesn't do much aside from dtilt, fair, grab, and on some occasions retreat -> pivot DED, but his spacing is excellent and it's extremely hard to approach him. I have the most success against him by just camping back. I use a lot of ice blocks and de-synced blizzards to harass him until he tries to approach me. If he doesn't try to approach, then I'll have Nana short hop blizzard towards him at a time that I don't think he expects it and from there, try to grab him or get him above me. I don't do this very much against most Marths since Marth can get around such camping without too much trouble, but I think it's pretty reliable against Marths who are really careful and don't throw out a lot of laggy moves.

If you force someone to the ledge, it's just poor spacing on their part if they try to jump or roll. Good players will usually retreat to the ledge where they could use that positioning to turn the tables if you're not precise with your ledgeplay.

That in mind, I wouldn't pursue Fox or anyone with a decent ledgegame too far off since considering Fox's great ledgestalls and broken a** ledgedash he could easily regain stage control from you if you misspace anything.

Yeah, I usually keep a pretty safe distance from anybody on the edge. It's enough distance for them to keep back on stage, but they still have relatively limited options there and most people won't keep going back to the edge over and over for whatever reason, and since they do have relatively limited options by the sides, people will still sometimes do something like an aerial into your shield and then buffer a roll behind you, or waveland onto a platform above you to get back to the center.

I believe patience would be more beneficial if your opponent is just as smart with their zoning as you are. However, if they DO misspace by choosing to roll, jump, spotdodge or generally just panicking, pressuring them should be more than fine.

Yes, patience is always key.

 

[Lovage]

you better not be talking about p LOL

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

you better not be talking about p LOL

Lol.

Raichu