Controllers and the factors that determine their competitive potential?

[ItsMeBrandon]

So there have been a number of threads on controller preference, and I've seen some discussion about how input lag and the ability to perform advanced techniques affect what controller most people like to use. This sort of thread may have been done before, and I apologize if it has been, in which case I'd like to know where I can find the following information I'm asking for otherwise... But I am partly asking for opinions in this thread too, I guess.

For reference, all of the following (official) controllers can be used to play Smash Wii U.
- GamePad
- Pro Controller
- GameCube Controller
- Classic Controller (Pro)
- Wii Remote & Nunchuk
- Wii Remote
- 3DS


From my understanding, there are a number of factors that go into deciding which controller is best for you, particularly for competitive use. These are the ones I'm thinking of:

Spoiler: Because this is a long post...

Availiability - Just whether you can get a certain controller or not. Not a big deal for most in the long run, but with the deal of GameCube adapters having been scarce in the past few months as well as Pro Controllers being seemingly expensive around now as well, I figured this is sort of relevant.

Input Lag - Each controller is subject to the possibility of transferring input to the game at a speed that players can consider to be too slow. I've heard lots of competitive people here say how a few frames of difference can sometimes mean a win or loss in a match. As I hadn't actually learned until coming here, it appears wired controllers have the lowest input lag, many saying there's practically none for these. This aspect may vary between wireless controllers as well, although I haven't seen much data or talk about them.

Advanced Techniques - Techniques that are sometimes defined as exploits, and that are often viewed as beneficial and sometimes crucial to Smash Bros.' competitive scene. Most competitive players use these, I'm going to guess. It's probably a safe bet to say that if a controller can't perform ATs, competitive players won't use it.

Feel - If I didn't know any better, I'd say this one is one of the more important aspects for a lot of us. If a controller feels comfortable to you, it generally gets easier to use it. This aspect is, of course, really up to personal preference.

Portability/Tournament Use - Is the controller easy/comfortable to carry around? Is it easy to keep your controller from interfering with tournament matches? That's this aspect. I combined these two because I didn't really feel like making them separate, plus I just feel like they relate somehow. I've heard that wireless controllers can potentially interfere with tournament matches, which they say can be a problem, so I've noted this aspect because of that.

I'm interested in hearing what you think about this list (you can agree, disagree, point out something I may have missed, etc.). I'd also be interested in hearing which of these aspects that you value the most when choosing your controller.

I also wanted to ask which controllers can perform ATs and which can't, if anyone knows. While I'm not competitive-intensive, I'm a bit curious about this.

And to be further relevant, what controllers do you believe are not viable for tournament play, and for what reasons?


That's all I have to say. Thanks for reading, and I'd greatly appreciate feedback from you.
I still don't feel good with starting threads. That said, please lock (or move?) this thread if there are any issues.

 

[Pazx]

Best in each category is as follows.

Availability: Wiimote, Gamepad
Input Lag: GCC, Wii U Pro
ATs: Wii U Pro
Feel: up to you
Tournament use: GCC and Wii U Pro, provided you know how to... not interfere with other matches.

It's 2015 wireless input lag is basically a thing of the past. Don't use the gamepad as you can't use it at tournaments. Wii U Pro is arguably the best controller.

 

[Nixon Corral]

[...]
ATs: Wii U Pro
[...]

Wii U Pro is arguably the best controller.

Genuinely curious, why do you think the Wii U Pro controller is best for ATs or overall? Personally, I find the octagonal shape of the stick boundaries on the GCC to be much better for performing tough inputs, etc, and other than that, I don't really see what the Pro Controller has to offer that's better.

I mean, at the end of the day, everyone should just whatever they feel they play best with. Just interested in your opinions.

 

[Pazx]

Genuinely curious, why do you think the Wii U Pro controller is best for ATs or overall? Personally, I find the octagonal shape of the stick boundaries on the GCC to be much better for performing tough inputs, etc, and other than that, I don't really see what the Pro Controller has to offer that's better.

I mean, at the end of the day, everyone should just whatever they feel they play best with. Just interested in your opinions.

You have an extra shoulder button which can be mapped to anything you like (usually jump). All your shoulder buttons are also digital, rather than the analogue triggers on the GCC which results in quicker/easier inputs,

Personally, I prefer the octagonal boundaries on the sticks on the GCC/Nunchuck/CCP but I began this sentence with "personally" and you began your second sentence with "personally" which should tell you everything you need to know about that.

I play with GCC because it's what I'm used to, for people who don't currently have a preferred controller I highly recommend the Wii U Pro Controller.

 

[Raijinken]

If your priority is responsiveness, then your best bet is the Gamecube controller, as it's the only wired option (correct me if I'm wrong, new to the U, but even when charging the Pro controller via USB, it still only connects via bluetooth). The difference between wired and new bluetooth is pretty small, but exists.

For comfort, there's really no "right" answer. I think the Gamecube controller is the most comfortable controller I've ever used. Not even the Battle Pad compares, since the c-stick was replaced with a second joystick, which doesn't suit me for flicking the stick and whatnot.

And for muscle memory, it's a matter of practice. Most Smash players have been using the Gamecube controller for the last thirteen years or so. It's pretty much expected that the majority of the playerbase prefers it. If I try playing with a Pro Controller, for instance, I have to tell it to emulate my 3DS settings (since that controller was vastly different in button layout etc), and I always forget to use the C-stick since it's not where I'm used to it being for more than a decade.

 

[Zage]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an issue where at large scale tournaments, like Apex, wireless controllers will suffer some kind of interference?

 

[Raijinken]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an issue where at large scale tournaments, like Apex, wireless controllers will suffer some kind of interference?

In any setting with widespread use of wireless devices of the same type, interference becomes a more and more likely issue.

Years ago I developed a strong hatred of Bluetooth just because the robotics tournaments I was entering had issues with interference. And that was only about 30 devices in a room making it near unplayable. Newer versions of Bluetooth are hopefully better than that. But (unless the input limits of USB come into play due to the adapter) wired isn't susceptible to those sorts of issues.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an issue where at large scale tournaments, like Apex, wireless controllers will suffer some kind of interference?

Another issue is that you have to pair the controllers, which just takes time. Additionally, if you forget to unpair and your controller turns on incidentally, and you happen to press the home button.. well you just ruined someone's match.

 

[etecoon]

GC controller is best even not considering input lag IMO, which I won't bring up again because I haven't seen it tested and it seems to be purely conjecture how much lag there is between controllers at this point. I think the sticks on the classic controller and wii u pro are pretty terrible...like, closer to what I used to expect out of third party gamecube controllers than what Nintendo used to be known for. The action of the buttons also feels really cheap, dunno why Nintendo went that route with the wii u pro because the tablet controller's buttons are a lot better and the pro was supposed to be for us long time gamers that wanted a proper controller...

Wiichuk might actually be second best, it has a good stick and the dpad is faster than a second stick. It's also convenient that when the stick starts to wear out you can just buy a new chuk instead of the whole controller, OTOH with it's lack of buttons it can be hard to map for and using the C button tends to throw off thumb accuracy(at least it did for me).

 

[Chiroz]

GC controller is best even not considering input lag IMO, which I won't bring up again because I haven't seen it tested and it seems to be purely conjecture how much lag there is between controllers at this point. I think the sticks on the classic controller and wii u pro are pretty terrible...like, closer to what I used to expect out of third party gamecube controllers than what Nintendo used to be known for. The action of the buttons also feels really cheap, dunno why Nintendo went that route with the wii u pro because the tablet controller's buttons are a lot better and the pro was supposed to be for us long time gamers that wanted a proper controller...

Wiichuk might actually be second best, it has a good stick and the dpad is faster than a second stick. It's also convenient that when the stick starts to wear out you can just buy a new chuk instead of the whole controller, OTOH with it's lack of buttons it can be hard to map for and using the C button tends to throw off thumb accuracy(at least it did for me).

As was said previously on the thread, you should notice that most of the stuff you wrote is actually subjective. Objectively speaking the Wii U Pro controller is the best controller. Input lag is not enough to equal a frame (unless there's some huge amount of interference going around) which makes the wireless vs wired debate obsolete. Wii U Pro also has 80 hours battery life (with only a 4-5 hour charging time) and I haven't seen it fail because of battery yet (although like any rechargeable device it will start to fail with time in a year or two but you can just replace it).

It has more buttons allowing you to map things for quicker inputs (Note that I don't say better because better in this case is subjective, but they are DEFINITELY 100% faster as you have the possibility to map every action to a dedicated finger allowing you to never move any finger thus eliminating the time you would take moving said finger). The shoulders are digital which allow for more precise inputs (and also quicker inputs).

Objectively speaking that's all there is to it. Shoulder buttons and more buttons. Personally (here comes the subjective part) I like the control sticks much, much more. When performing the dash dance (trot dance?) and perfect pivots the GC controller stick sits so high that I feel like it's an unnatural movement compared to how smooth the Wii U Pro does it (I didn't use to feel this way, but I forced myself to learn the Wii U Pro controller out of necessity to prove a point and once I was used to the Wii U Pro controller the GC Control Sticks just feel too high and uncomfortable). I will say though that I do miss A LOT the octagonal shapes, I am going to try and see if I can find some faceplate for my Wii U pro with octagonal rigs.

Also it's good to note that with the control stick sitting where it is there is no need for "claw grips" or hasty finger moving in order to use aerials. It's such a nice comfortable grip, although again, this is subjective. Some people might prefer the "claw grip".



For those wondering about interference, I personally have been to 2 200+ entrant tournaments and experienced 0 interference. Literally not a single bit. Although I will say that I only saw about 15-20 other wireless controllers, so even though there were a lot of people, more than 90% were using GCC. I don't know how bad interference might get if you put 50-100 of these controllers in a room.



PS: Honestly, for so many people that are worried about less than half a frame of lag because of "wireless inputs", you would think they would jump at the chance to have quicker inputs, even with the GCC (you can map jump or special, preferably jump, to a shoulder button on the GCC for quicker inputs). I can assure you that moving your finger from the A to the B or the X/Y button takes more than 5-10 milliseconds which is about what wireless control signals take nowadays.



PS2: If anyone knows of any Wii U Pro faceplates with octagonal control stick rigs please let a homie know.