Content vs. Substance

[SKM_NeoN]

There are two categories in which most gamers fall: Those that mostly play games with the most/newest content, and those that play games with the most substance (within their line of tastes, of course). Usually the latest iteration of a series will be unanimously preferred by the former group, as it obviously contains newer features and mechanics with, usually, more content (characters, weapons, units, etc.). On the other hand, a game at its "peak" within a series or genre in terms of fluidity and depth (or the perception thereof) will be played more by the latter, regardless of the game's age most of the time. So what happens when a new game outclasses the rest of the series in both content and depth?

Enter Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Now there were (and still are) devout fans of SSB64 that didn't make the switch; However, the vast majority of smashers agreed that Melee was superior to its predecessor in nearly every conceivable manner. Better visuals, better sound, more characters, more stages, improved mechanics, new techniques--the list goes on. It was a superb sequel, and the entire community was excitedly anticipating where Smash Bros. would go next.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl released with high critical acclaim, and a great many felt it was the finest in the series. However, there was a divide that is felt to this day. The game certainly improved in the way of graphics, sound, and roster size, but the removal of several techniques, and the addition of mechanics that were geared towards an "anybody can compete with anybody" mentality (such as tripping and magnetic ledges) left a lot of players disappointed. Brawl was brimming with content, but lacking in substance, causing the aforementioned groups to split up after a time.

So where does that leave Super Smash Bros. 4? Historically speaking, if it expanded upon the mechanics and techniques featured in Melee and included more content than Brawl, the game would be a rousing success. Perhaps the most beloved in the entire franchise. Otherwise it will most likely follow in Brawl's footsteps; Enjoyed by most for a time, but a fissure will grow between the content and substance groups. Does that mean Brawl would be the next SSB64, with a loyal fanbase but mostly a niche title by comparison? Probably. Team Content will mostly move on to SSBWiiU, while Team Substance will most likely stick with Melee.

That's my theory, anyway. Thanks for reading.

 

[Medaka444]

Several months after owning both Melee and Brawl, and I still can't decide which one I like more. Essentially, Brawl had more stuff (like music CDs), less frustrating difficulties, and more comfortable controls; Melee was faster-paced, with a number of interesting techniques. They each had glaring flaws (to me, no C-sticking in one-player mode is far worse than Tripping). That's why I'm hopeful for a game that aims to find a sort of middle ground.

I know it will have less characters, so there's that. For substance, I really hope it's good at character balance, unlike every single other SSB game.

 

[Ussi]

The multiplayer is the crux of smash brothers.. But the 1 player isn't something that can be ignored cause i enjoyed melee's adventure mode as a kid. Subspace emissiony irked me because you had to beat it to unlock all the characters (no one knew about spamming special brawl on release). And it took to long while you just fought genetric bad guys instead of bad guys from the games. Had it been fighting goombas, kremlings, metroids and the like, then it would have been more memorable.


For 1 player mode, hoping for the return of melee adventure mode, with possible added rounds with character unlocks.


Multiplayer needs to just be less campy.. I'm hoping Sakurai gives everyone the aether treatment where you have a limited number of times you can grab the ledge consecatively. Shield has to be more punishable. Grab armor has to be addressed as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's why I'm hopeful for a game that aims to find a sort of middle ground.

I know it will have less characters, so there's that. For substance, I really hope it's good at character balance, unlike every single other SSB game.

They are aiming for a middle ground, but given it's Sakurai that said that leaves much room to interpretation. From what I can gather, the input difficulty and the like will be aimed at intermediate players which is something I can definitely buy so long as the strategy aspect is not compromised. To me, that's the substance of the game. The more possibilities, the more dynamic the game can be. It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Multiplayer needs to just be less campy.. I'm hoping Sakurai gives everyone the aether treatment where you have a limited number of times you can grab the ledge consecatively. Shield has to be more punishable. Grab armor has to be addressed as well.

The campy issue can thankfully be fixed by upping the speed a bit, removing hitstun canceling (who thought that was a good idea?), random tripping, and simply better balancing the game.

The ledge limit definitely needs to be addressed. I know it is for Aether and Zamus' Side B at the very least, but it MUST become a universal thing. It's such an easy thing to fix. On the topic of shields, I'd like it if they made it to where every attack has their own distinct frame (dis)advantage instead of being based off the attack speed or strength of the attack (or so I hear). It would help the diversity more as well as now we can have characters that emphasize pressure and frame traps.

 

[courte]

Seeing as how it always looks closer to brawl, and i haven't played experienced any of the mods yet, i'd rather a new game bring the fan service to the max, but i'd rather have new characters, even if it means others won't return, considering how much of the roster is usually ignored by nintendo years at a time. it hurts to see those guys in brawl sometimes. the falcons and the samuses who don't get games for years at a time.

I do want substance, i really do. But [like most i imagine] SF was the first fighter in your life. After the revival, i look at SF in a different light and all fighters for the matter. My view is... I can't think of great changed to smash without thinking of conventions of other fighters. and while that COULD make the game great... would it compromise smash and make it something... yugh. TBH when i saw link to new games on character reveal pages and the fact that the websites updates with 10 screenshots per character as compared to the dojo... my high hopes were slowly lowering each day but don't misunderstand. i still have hope

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The problem with this theory is that Brawl is not lacking in substance in any way. Do you really think people would play it in tournament for six and a half years just because they're content mongers who don't care about the quality?

The real deal is that Brawl as an improvement over Melee is subjective whereas it was far more clear-cut with Melee over smash 64. The scene was also immature when Melee came out (and thus there was little organized resistance to an upgrade even if joe blow didn't like Melee as much as smash 64) whereas Melee was a mature game when Brawl came out so it was quite easy to rally against Brawl. Street Fighter followed almost the exact same situation. SF1 was basically a prototype (even more "incomplete" than smash 64). SF2 was the gold standard of fighting games for years. SF3 came out, and it wasn't really worse than SF2, but it sure was different. The community is at war with itself at that point as everyone takes sides; the old crowd who doesn't like the changes rallies behind the old game, and since SF3 is actually a good game, it gets a fairly healthy defense squad too. Eventually everyone calmed down, accepted the differences, and worked together as a united community when SF4 came out. That's not to say everyone loved SF4 or that there weren't real possible complaints about SF4, and it's not even to say that all the old games stopped being played altogether. It is, however, to say that the community grew up and worked for their collective betterment, and SF4 saw that scene get bigger than it ever had been back in the day. We don't know the end of the smash story yet since smash 4 isn't out yet, but I sure hope it goes the same way. We cannot afford another fiasco like our years of community in-fighting with Melee vs Brawl; our community has so much potential to be huge, and we just shoot ourselves in the foot when we do stuff like that.

And yes, more people will "move on" from Brawl than from Melee basically no matter what, but there are two reasons for that that are different form what you're saying. One is that a lot of us have already "moved on" twice, and because of that, moving on a third time isn't daunting (in fact, it's exciting!). Two is that we're all collectively fatigued not from Brawl itself but from all the hate for years on end. It really does wear on a person to hear people say that the game you've put so much into is bad, not competitive, or whatever nonsense, and I think a lot of Brawl player are just ready for that to be over.

In short, smash 4 is going to be its own game, it will probably be a good game, but it will almost assuredly be good in a way that you could argue its virtues. We can't control the exact details of that, but we can control our response to this reality, and it has to be a different response this time. Luckily, I think we're in a good position to do better this time; that little civil war was probably just growing pains as our community as a whole matured, and now that we're past that, we can focus on working together.

 

[courte]

My post right now is one made in general, perhaps reasking a stupid question, because I don't know if Amazing Ampharos was responding to me, the op, or both of us.

What thoughts are going through your minds with Namco Bandai also working on the game?
http://dustycartridge.com/interviews/a-chat-with-tekken-series-director-katsuhiro-harada-part-2/
More than anything, i'm interested in how NB and Sakurai will interact. He's known to be a stubborn/proud man who takes on more of the workload than he should at times, but working with a company known for making 3D fighting games, and quite a lot in the past few years catering to the hardcore and the fanservice, to me that sends a pretty clear message AT FIRST. Is this next smash going to be a bit more mainstream/conventional? If so, by what standard. Clearly if so not by much, because the core of the gameplay hasn't changed at all. Will this traditional 2.5D fighter borrow from 2D or 3D fighters, if any at all? Is the team mostly there to help balance the game? Last time around, word is the reason certain characters couldn't make it into the game was for time constraints. Maybe they're working with a bigger staff to combat this problem.

The last thing that comes to mind is the fact that Namco Bandai is almost notorious for copious amounts of DLC. For a smash brothers game i wouldn't mind at all and i'd buy it all. But particularly with their fighters, they offer a wide array of cosmetic and functional customization options?

Maybe i'm reading too much into things, and those elements which are present in the game are not as significant and time costly as NB's other games compared to this title.

if the smash bros site updates like the dojo used to i wouldn't be asking so many questions. I liked SSE, but i'm on the glad side we aren't getting one this time around. Is the time comparitively being spent on balancing, 'substance' such as customization or meat in the game? All I know is that they're working hard. Out of respect, i'm not going to rez my old Brawl Stage ideas thread

 

[SmashChu]

There are two categories in which most gamers fall: Those that mostly play games with the most/newest content, and those that play games with the most substance (within their line of tastes, of course). Usually the latest iteration of a series will be unanimously preferred by the former group, as it obviously contains newer features and mechanics with, usually, more content (characters, weapons, units, etc.). On the other hand, a game at its "peak" within a series or genre in terms of fluidity and depth (or the perception thereof) will be played more by the latter, regardless of the game's age most of the time. So what happens when a new game outclasses the rest of the series in both content and depth?

Enter Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Now there were (and still are) devout fans of SSB64 that didn't make the switch; However, the vast majority of smashers agreed that Melee was superior to its predecessor in nearly every conceivable manner. Better visuals, better sound, more characters, more stages, improved mechanics, new techniques--the list goes on. It was a superb sequel, and the entire community was excitedly anticipating where Smash Bros. would go next.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl released with high critical acclaim, and a great many felt it was the finest in the series. However, there was a divide that is felt to this day. The game certainly improved in the way of graphics, sound, and roster size, but the removal of several techniques, and the addition of mechanics that were geared towards an "anybody can compete with anybody" mentality (such as tripping and magnetic ledges) left a lot of players disappointed. Brawl was brimming with content, but lacking in substance, causing the aforementioned groups to split up after a time.

So where does that leave Super Smash Bros. 4? Historically speaking, if it expanded upon the mechanics and techniques featured in Melee and included more content than Brawl, the game would be a rousing success. Perhaps the most beloved in the entire franchise. Otherwise it will most likely follow in Brawl's footsteps; Enjoyed by most for a time, but a fissure will grow between the content and substance groups. Does that mean Brawl would be the next SSB64, with a loyal fanbase but mostly a niche title by comparison? Probably. Team Content will mostly move on to SSBWiiU, while Team Substance will most likely stick with Melee.

That's my theory, anyway. Thanks for reading.

Your kind of look at the problem wrong.

Most people are going to move on to the new games because it is a general improvement over the predecessor. Though not everything is perfect, and people will have their own preference with certain thing, generally it is agreed upon that it is better to move forward. The issue here has nothing to do with substance vs content. It has everything to do with the Melee cult and everyone else. Melee fans believe that Melee is the greatest game ever made and the only way to make a game as good is too make Melee again. Look at the debates. They are always framed in the context that Melee is good and anything contradictory to it is bad. It's only recently that some in the competitive circle are challenging this. Look at the Brawl mods. There were plenty of mods before Project M including Brawl + and Balance Brawl. Though Project M was the most popular. Why? Because it tries to make Brawl like Melee in every way. The other mods just try to make it more competitive focus but they never archived the fanbase that Project M had. Again, because they see Melee as perfect so of course they believe their little mod is far superior to Brawl.

Look at other games. When Street Fighter 4 came out, people moved on to new game. Have you seen a Street Fighter 3 tournament? They are few and far between and most major tournaments might not run one. The same is true of MvC3. MvC2 tournaments dried up. Now, you see MvC3 tournaments almost exclusively. People aren't really playing 2. But that didn't really happen in Smash. The move from 64 to Melee was fine, but not to Brawl. Melee tournaments are still played along side Brawl tournaments. With other games, the players move on to the newest version. But the Melee cult can't let go. They wont give up Melee.

So what about SSB4? The Brawl players will move on. Most people will move onto the new game. The only thing that may stop people is having to buy the new systems. But Melee players will play Melee. They will try to say that SSB4 is an awful game. They will try to make Project M for Wii U. The difference this time would be less people in the community wont take their ****.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I can't agree here, I think that players will play the game that suits their needs. That is a real reason that people play the version of Smash they choose to play, it's the kind of game they like to play.

I was thinking of writing a wall of text but it shouldn't be necessary. Each game has a different style of play in terms of speed, complexity, and style. Whichever fits your tastes the best is the game you'll play the most.

The next two smash games are already bringing new things to the table and we have three previous installments to choose from. We are some of the most fortunate fans of any fighting game in this regard: we can play our game HOW WE WANT. How cool is that?

But in the end, I'm already seeing the beginnings of 3DS vs Wii U starting that may never stop.

"Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it."

We all know the history and still let this happen even as we see it may happen again and ARE LETTING IT HAPPEN. What does that make us?

 

[Vkrm]

Stuff

I'm just going to say the same thing I do everytime you try dismiss the competitive scene as a bunch of nostalgia ****. Look at their interaction with the 64 community. If we were blinded by nostalgia we'd be playing that instead. Every single person who I've spoken to from the melee community has a fondness for that game despite its differences.

Street fighter 4 did not wipe out 3s. 3 was dead long before then because of the weak arcade scene and a couple of other factors. I find it odd that you used sf3 to enforce your argument but don't mention street fighter 2, the game that had 50 man turn outs decades after its release. Project m is the most popular mod, that's true. But that might have something to do with it being the most polished brawl mod out there. They have a committed staff of about 80. Also it's not as if brawl minus didn't manage to set itself up with its own share of the brawl modding community.

 

[Renji64]

Brawl was the downward sprial for me. Hopefully this next game will be able to be awesome i saw a combo there is small hope.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm just going to say the same thing I do everytime you try dismiss the competitive scene as a bunch of nostalgia ***s. Look at their interaction with the 64 community. If we were blinded by nostalgia we'd be playing that instead. Every single person who I've spoken to from the melee community has a fondness for that game despite its differences.

Street fighter 4 did not wipe out 3s. 3 was dead long before then because of the weak arcade scene and a couple of other factors. I find it odd that you used sf3 to enforce your argument but don't mention street fighter 2, the game that had 50 man turn outs decades after its release. Project m is the most popular mod, that's true. But that might have something to do with it being the most polished brawl mod out there. They have a committed staff of about 80. Also it's not as if brawl minus didn't manage to set itself up with its own share of the brawl modding community.

Not sure why you bring up 64. No one is doing tournaments for that game. But Melee tournaments still happen. There really isn't a large 64 community. If there was such a fondness, they where are tournaments? It's not being played in near the same amount as the other two games. At the same time, I've heard Melee players rag on 64 a few times, so I'm not sure if there is much fondness. On tournaments, let's look at some other games. Starcraft 2 has taken over Starcraft 1. There was delays in its adoptions, but that is also because many players were making their living off of it. All of the western players switched over and the Koreans moved over bit by bit. Starcraft 1 s just about done. But still Melee players want to play Melee over almost 12 years of being out. This behavior is not normal, and that is what I was pointing out. Now, on the mods you are missing the point. That's nice that it's polished, but the point is not the mod itself but the reaction. That most popular Brawl mod is a mod that turns the game into Melee should tell you how fanatic Melee fans are. The mod is so insulting that it turns Melee veterans back to their Melee movesets. I could understand some changes, but changing the movesets to old versions? Why? It shows that the Melee cult only wants Melee. It should also be noted that Melee cultist try to tell you how bad Brawl is at every turn. Not talking about Melee? Well, looks like your going to because a cultist will soon bring you the word of Melee. They will tell you how Brawl is bad. Why is it bad? Because it's not Melee of course. Look at the Melee vs Brawl debates. The Melee crowd will always frame their argument as what Melee has is good and what Brawl has is bad. There is no logic which is why the debates goes into chaos. Melee cultist will go as far as to argue that things are obviously bad in Melee as some how better. I've heard some people say Melee had a better roster despite being 10 characters less than Brawl and 6 of them being model swaps.


So I said a lot of different things. What am I getting at. The behavior of Melee fans is fanatic. They don't want to let the game go and see it as the best thing ever. Why did they mod Brawl to be like Melee. Because Melee is the greatest game ever made. Why is everything Brawl have bad and Melee has is good. Because Melee is the greatest game ever made. Why host tournaments for the game despite trying to learn the new one and get ready for the next game release in about a year. Because Melee is the greatest game ever made. Melee fans are already complaining about SSBWU because it has Melee elements like the air dodge and floatyness. This is in spite of the director saying he's trying to strike a balance. It's pretty clear Melee is a cult.

 

[nat pagle]

Melee was a practical launch game made just 2 years after smash 64. Sakurai had to cheese on a lot of the modes and you could tell it. Event modes were probably by far the easiest to make along with multi-man melee, target smash, etc.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

The problem with this theory is that Brawl is not lacking in substance in any way. Do you really think people would play it in tournament for six and a half years just because they're content mongers who don't care about the quality?

The real deal is that Brawl as an improvement over Melee is subjective whereas it was far more clear-cut with Melee over smash 64. The scene was also immature when Melee came out (and thus there was little organized resistance to an upgrade even if joe blow didn't like Melee as much as smash 64) whereas Melee was a mature game when Brawl came out so it was quite easy to rally against Brawl. Street Fighter followed almost the exact same situation. SF1 was basically a prototype (even more "incomplete" than smash 64). SF2 was the gold standard of fighting games for years. SF3 came out, and it wasn't really worse than SF2, but it sure was different. The community is at war with itself at that point as everyone takes sides; the old crowd who doesn't like the changes rallies behind the old game, and since SF3 is actually a good game, it gets a fairly healthy defense squad too. Eventually everyone calmed down, accepted the differences, and worked together as a united community when SF4 came out. That's not to say everyone loved SF4 or that there weren't real possible complaints about SF4, and it's not even to say that all the old games stopped being played altogether. It is, however, to say that the community grew up and worked for their collective betterment, and SF4 saw that scene get bigger than it ever had been back in the day. We don't know the end of the smash story yet since smash 4 isn't out yet, but I sure hope it goes the same way. We cannot afford another fiasco like our years of community in-fighting with Melee vs Brawl; our community has so much potential to be huge, and we just shoot ourselves in the foot when we do stuff like that.

And yes, more people will "move on" from Brawl than from Melee basically no matter what, but there are two reasons for that that are different form what you're saying. One is that a lot of us have already "moved on" twice, and because of that, moving on a third time isn't daunting (in fact, it's exciting!). Two is that we're all collectively fatigued not from Brawl itself but from all the hate for years on end. It really does wear on a person to hear people say that the game you've put so much into is bad, not competitive, or whatever nonsense, and I think a lot of Brawl player are just ready for that to be over.

In short, smash 4 is going to be its own game, it will probably be a good game, but it will almost assuredly be good in a way that you could argue its virtues. We can't control the exact details of that, but we can control our response to this reality, and it has to be a different response this time. Luckily, I think we're in a good position to do better this time; that little civil war was probably just growing pains as our community as a whole matured, and now that we're past that, we can focus on working together.

I never tried to imply that Brawl lacks substance, only that it simply isn't as deep as Melee. Which it isn't. If Brawl would have added upon the techniques of Melee (or done nothing at all in that department) rather than subtracting, the rift between the two fanbases wouldn't be as large. In fact it would be an obvious switch; Brawl is much improved over Melee in a variety of ways, just not in ways the competitive scene much cares for generally speaking. Alas, the competitive scene for Melee is a bit larger, while those that play for fanservice naturally play Brawl (not saying there's anything wrong with that by the way, nobody can tell you how you should have fun). Melee will live on if SSB4 fails to match it in terms of depth. Brawl will not. I don't buy your idea of Brawl players switching solely because they are "fatigued" from all the fighting, sounds like an excuse from a bitter Brawl fan. The reason they will move on is the same reason why they moved on from Melee, because SSB4 is the "new" thing. That's the way it works.

To clarify I am not saying one game is superior to the other. I'm just giving my opinions on where the community will end up and why.

 

[Conviction]

I'm so sorry everyone.

 

[nat pagle]

I'm so sorry everyone.

Why? Melee vs. Brawl wars was by far worse in 2009-2011.

 

[Conviction]

Why? Melee vs. Brawl wars was by far worse in 2009-2011.

I know, I was around for it. I'm not talking about that though...I'm so sorry.

 

[nat pagle]

I know, I was around for it. I'm not talking about that though...I'm so sorry.

Why are you sorry?

 

[Conviction]

Why are you sorry?

Smashchu. It's like Lord Moldy Butt, bad things happen.

 

[Vkrm]

Not sure why you bring up 64. No one is doing tournaments for that game. But Melee tournaments still happen. There really isn't a large 64 community. If there was such a fondness, they where are tournaments? It's not being played in near the same amount as the other two games.

Technically you didn't address my argument here but whatever. First of all, we cant say for sure that smash 64 is played less than the other two. In other countries like Japan, brazil, and a few other South American countries 64 is vibrant. It is true less people travel for smash 64 in the states, but that's to be expected when modern day emulation gives us net play. All of that is beside the point. My original argument was that smash 64 is a very different game from melee, but is still appreciated by melee enthusiasts. You're trying to paint this picture of melee players being intolerant of other types of games, when in reality we're intolerant of bad games

On tou Starcraft 2 has taken over Starcraft 1. There was delays in its adoptions, but that is also because many players were making their living off of it. All of the western players switched over and the Koreans moved over bit by bit. Starcraft 1 s just about done. But still Melee players want to play Melee over almost 12 years of being out. This behavior is not normal, and that is what I was pointing out.

Oh it's certainly not normal. It's also not normal to see such a dip in quality from a game sequel. You must be aware of the changes sakurai made to discourage competitive play. Don't focus on if it was fair or not, or if it helped sales. Instead try to see how illogical it is for you to begrudge the competitive community for preferring the game that better suits them.

Now, on the mods you are missing the point. That's nice that it's polished, but the point is not the mod itself but the reaction. That most popular Brawl mod is a mod that turns the game into Melee should tell you how fanatic Melee fans are. The mod is so insulting that it turns Melee veterans back to their Melee movesets. I could understand some changes, but changing the movesets to old versions? Why?

You're technically wrong here. The pmbr reverted the functions of some moves but not the animations in most cases. The instances where both the parts of the moves were changed back were always done to benefit the character. Falco's standing reflector is a much better move than brawl's thrown reflector. His f-air needed to be changed because melee styled di made the old one useless. Often they changed both the hitbox and animation of the move to something completely original. Mk and snake sport a bunch of newly designed moves and overall they're just better designed characters now. More distinct. You are forgetting one very important thing. The melee community is playing melee. The PM community is made up of brawl players and newbies who are still trying to grasp the concept of a competitive smash bros game. Somehow this mod is doing a better job of entertaining players than the other mods. That's all there is to it.

It shows that the Melee cult only wants Melee. It should also be noted that Melee cultist try to tell you how bad Brawl is at every turn. Not talking about Melee? Well, looks like your going to because a cultist will soon bring you the word of Melee. They will tell you how Brawl is bad. Why is it bad? Because it's not Melee of course. Look at the Melee vs Brawl debates. The Melee crowd will always frame their argument as what Melee has is good and what Brawl has is bad. There is no logic which is why the debates goes into chaos. Melee cultist will go as far as to argue that things are obviously bad in Melee as some how better. I've heard some people say Melee had a better roster despite being 10 characters less than Brawl and 6 of them being model swaps.

We could talk about the awful design decisions in brawl without mentioning melee. I dont really see why this game in particular, brawl that is, should not be compared to its predecessor. How many other games do we do that for? I do agree they went overboard on clones in certain cases. Fox and falco both belong in the game and are more or less fine how they are. They share a lot of animations but their moves have different properties which leads to them to have very different play styles. Roy and pichu should be axed just because they're awful characters. I'd say if they had to choose between not having Gannon or falco in melee, or recycling other move sets, they made the right choice.

So I said a lot of different things. What am I getting at. The behavior of Melee fans is fanatic. They don't want to let the game go and see it as the best thing ever. Why did they mod Brawl to be like Melee. Because Melee is the [/SIZE]greatest game ever made. Why is everything Brawl have bad and Melee has is good. Because Melee is the greatest game ever made. Why host tournaments for the game despite trying to learn the new one and get ready for the next game release in about a year. Because Melee is the greatest game ever made. Melee fans are already complaining about SSBWU because it has Melee elements like the air dodge and floatyness. This is in spite of the director saying he's trying to strike a balance. It's pretty clear Melee is a cult.

Never seen so much strawman in one place.

 

[SmashChu]

The best way to combat an argument is to use even more words. I'm relactant to reply because you fail to see the big picture. You can't look at everything in peices but a whole. So most of my replies will be just pointing out the problems.

Technically you didn't address my argument here but whatever. First of all, we cant say for sure that smash 64 is played less than the other two. In other countries like Japan, brazil, and a few other South American countries 64 is vibrant. It is true less people travel for smash 64 in the states, but that's to be expected when modern day emulation gives us net play. All of that is beside the point. My original argument was that smash 64 is a very different game from melee, but is still appreciated by melee enthusiasts. You're trying to paint this picture of melee players being intolerant of other types of games, when in reality we're intolerant of bad games

Words words words.

The largest 64 tournament ever held was 95 people.

Oh it's certainly not normal. It's also not normal to see such a dip in quality from a game sequel. You must be aware of the changes sakurai made to discourage competitive play. Don't focus on if it was fair or not, or if it helped sales. Instead try to see how illogical it is for you to begrudge the competitive community for preferring the game that better suits them.

It's totally normal. I mean, I gave three examples and you gave none, but you know, whatever.

Typically, people play the sequel over new games.

You're technically wrong here. The pmbr reverted the functions of some moves but not the animations in most cases. The instances where both the parts of the moves were changed back were always done to benefit the character. Falco's standing reflector is a much better move than brawl's thrown reflector. His f-air needed to be changed because melee styled di made the old one useless. Often they changed both the hitbox and animation of the move to something completely original. Mk and snake sport a bunch of newly designed moves and overall they're just better designed characters now. More distinct. You are forgetting one very important thing. The melee community is playing melee. The PM community is made up of brawl players and newbies who are still trying to grasp the concept of a competitive smash bros game. Somehow this mod is doing a better job of entertaining players than the other mods. That's all there is to it.

Like how the only thing you really focus is the moves. You ignore the elephant in the room which is this "amazing mod which is far better than Brawl," is just Melee. It tries to be Melee in every way. The moves are a part of that (why does Bowser need the Koppa Gnaw of all things).

On the later part, unless you have something to back that statement up, I think it's wrong. If I liked Brawl, why would I be mostly playing a mod that is essentially Melee.

We could talk about the awful design decisions in brawl without mentioning melee. I dont really see why this game in particular, brawl that is, should not be compared to its predecessor. How many other games do we do that for?

You start by saying "We can talk about them without comparing them." and then say "But your going to compare a game to the predicessor." Kind of contradictory there huh?

You can objectively look at a game beyond the other games in it's series (i.e. Other M is a bad game even when not compared to the other Metroid games). The thing is, these discussions always use Melee as the bench mark. It's not that Brawl is objectivly bad but good or bad compared to Melee. The judge of quality to these people is "Melee is good and not Melee is bad."

Never seen so much strawman in one place.

"Ummm, I don't have an argument for this, so I'm just going to call it a strawman. That will show him. I'm so smart."

BTW, not sure you know what a strawman is.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Melee is substance, Brawl is content

Project M is the best of both worlds

also roy

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm so sorry everyone.

Same here. I'm sorry about all this.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Same here. I'm sorry about all this.

??? Why are you apologizing about SmashChu?

 

[Conviction]

??? Why are you apologizing about SmashChu?

Read and understand.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Read and understand.

I understand that Smashchu is an idiot. I just don't see why you have to apologize for that.

 

[Conviction]

I understand that Smashchu is an idiot. I just don't see why you have to apologize for that.

These kind people don't deserve this. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

...I've said too much

We out.

 

[nat pagle]

These kind people don't deserve this. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

...I've said too much

We out.

 

[SmashChu]

I understand that Smashchu is an idiot. I just don't see why you have to apologize for that.

Because they are sorry they can't be as great as I. I know I know. it's not easy being this awesome. I'm sorry your so jealous of my wit, charism and greand fortune. I will forgive you this time shinpichu. You envy me so much, you named yourself after me.

These kind people don't deserve this. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Yeah, I wouldn't wish people having different opinions and points of view on my worst enemies either. It's worse than **** and murder.

 

[Conviction]

Herp-a-derp.

You forgot to add the part about being wrong about most of the character inclusions so far...but...you didn't hear that from me.

-DIP-

 

[Vkrm]

The largest 64 tournament ever held was 95 people.

All of that is beside the point. My original argument was that smash 64 is a very different game from melee, but is still appreciated by melee enthusiasts. You're trying to paint this picture of melee players being intolerant of other types of games, when in reality we're intolerant of bad games

It's totally normal. I mean, I gave three examples and you gave none, but you know, whatever.

Only saw 2 examples and the street fighter one falls apart if you know your FG history. I don't play Starcraft so I have to take your word on it. You weren't completely wrong about sf3, but you did neglect to mention that street fighter 2 has been a staple of the fgc for decades. It really doesn't matter since I was never arguing against the idea that the melee community is in an unusual situation.

Typically, people play the sequel over new games.

Typically. Not always. Quake, counter strike, umk3 was the favored MK game until number 9. Typically when they make sequel to a game they don't build it to discourage competitive play either. Our preference for melee is completely justified.

Like how the only thing you really focus is the moves.

I was responding to what you said.

The mod is so insulting that it turns Melee veterans back to their Melee movesets. I could understand some changes, but changing the movesets to old versions? Why?

On the later part, unless you have something to back that statement up, I think it's wrong. If I liked Brawl, why would I be mostly playing a mod that is essentially Melee.

It's kind of hard to interpret what you said here. I guess i should talk about how project m has a lot of things unique to it. Don't know if you've been keeping on eye on it but they just finished the clone engine. There is the possibility that project m will have exclusive characters.

You start by saying "We can talk about them without comparing them." and then say "But your going to compare a game to the predicessor." Kind of contradictory there huh?
You can objectively look at a game beyond the other games in it's series (i.e. Other M is a bad game even when not compared to the other Metroid games).

Nothing in my response was contradictory. Go back and read it. I said that brawl is a flawed game, and we wouldn't need to grade it against melee to see how and why. I go on to say that it's a little odd that we don't immediately compare the games side by side as we would with any other video game sequel ever. And metroid other m is not a bad game. Granted if you went in with an itch for exploration and collecting, it was probably disappointing. It was a overall decent game mechanically. Narratively it's an abomination.

The thing is, these discussions always use Melee as the bench mark.

Whats wrong with that?

It's not that Brawl is objectivly bad but good or bad compared to Melee. The judge of quality to these people is "Melee is good and not Melee is bad."

Then why doesn't 64 receive the treatment that brawl gets? And why do melee players find it easy to enjoy other types of fighters. When we were up against skullgirls and it was a shot at evo on the line we still maintained mutual respect. All of our people had nothing but good things to say about that games mechanics despite the fact we were competing against one another. You're obviously out of touch with the people you're criticizing.

"Ummm, I don't have an argument for this, so I'm just going to call it a strawman. That will show him. I'm so smart."

BTW, not sure you know what a strawman is.

Find a definition and post it if you please, and try not to be so smug. Or don't. I kinda get the feeling that what most of us here would see as a strawman you might consider an accurate description of the scene.

 

[Medaka444]

Apparently, games about Nintendo characters jumping and punching each other are worth spending heated debates on and calling each other idiots who can't face reality. When the Internet and video gaming communities combine, terror.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

At least it's not a Youtube debate. Those are hilariously terrible.

 

[nat pagle]

Apparently, games about Nintendo characters jumping and punching each other are worth spending heated debates on and calling each other idiots who can't face reality. When the Internet and video gaming communities combine, terror.

Yeah, and worth buying round trip tickets to New York and Las Vegas every year!

 

[SmashChu]

You forgot to add the part about being wrong about most of the character inclusions so far...but...you didn't hear that from me.

-DIP-

If you aint wrong, you aint trying.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

If you aint wrong, you aint trying.

Mind = Blown.
This is where we've all been going wrong in life.