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Consistency of SHFFL and Short Hop, I need some help!

treemustach

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
13
I have been playing Melee for a little while now and I can't seem to get my SHFFLing consistently. I am also having problems with short hopping after a dash. What I mean is, if i go to do a "full jump nair" I can't consistently short hop it. Also, when I SHFFL I use the A button, rather than the C stick. Is this going to affect my ability to SHFFL better?
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
As far as shffling goes, I would try to learn it piece by piece. First, practice the short hop, using the corner of your thumb to flick the Y button, rather than full on pressing it.

Generally, on these boards, people will tell you to use the method that is most comfortable for you for a given move, but honestly speaking, C stick is the best choice. It allows you to do an aerial while moving in a different direction as soon as possible.

Say you want to ledge hop bair back on to the stage. With the A button, you must first hold the control stick back to perform the bair, and then forward to get back on stage.

With the C-stick, you can start holding forward as soon as you jump to get more distance.
 

treemustach

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
13
Thanks, i feel generally comfortable with using c stick as well, but i noticed that the knee on fair when I use falcon doesn't really show when I try to SHFFL it. Is this because i'm not fast enough?
 

TobiasXK

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
579
Location
austintown
it could be one of two things (or both): not Knee-ing early enough in your jump and/or fastfalling too early.
 

Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
The c-stick isn't the best choice, at least not with Falcon. Falcon benefits alot from frame perfect aerials. I use both A and c-stick, but the best would obviously be to claw, so you can use one finger for c-stick and one finger for jump, allowing you to easily get the aerials out on the first possible frame.
 
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Waverider900

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
35
Location
East Coast (Chicago for college)
3DS FC
2578-4178-8486
The c-stick isn't the best choice, at least not with Falcon. Falcon benefits alot from frame perfect aerials. I use both A and c-stick, but the best would obviously be to claw, so you can use one finger for c-stick and one finger for jump, allowing you to easily get the aerials out on the first possible frame.
I think every Falcon main uses cstick for dair and uair. I used to use A for bair and fair but after a while I switched to c-stick and felt it was much easier. A still does have situational uses, though
 

Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
C-stick is easier but not always the best. Recently I've been practicing HARD to be able to hit a standing fox with instant uair with c-stick, but I'm way more consistent if I use A. My main problem now is getting frame perfect rising fairs and bairs with c-stick -> right. A frame perfect rising knee hits a fox right in his face, so it's a great tool.
 

Balance

The Boss
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Charleston, WV
treemustach,

As someone new to this scene who just came out of the exact situation you're in, hopefully I can give you a few small insights into what allowed be to break through the barrier:

1. Get the right equipment (CRT television and official Nintendo controller) I was trying to learn these things on a modern 50" flatscreen in "game mode" and didn't realize how much input lag I had until I got a small old CRT tv. Tech timings came MUCH easier after the switch.

2. Grind it out. I'm sure if you're a gamer you're familiar with grinding (as in rpgs). Well, same thing. Spend time every day just repeating these movements, however hopeless they may seem until you program it into your body (muscle memory). It will pay off.

3. For consistent short hopping, try corner snapping the Y button. I essentially "snap" or slide my thumbnail off the very edge of the Y button as quickly as possible to make a short hop. Do it enough and it'll feel natural.

4. For SHFFL, try not to think of it so much as a string combo, but rather a bunch of buttons that you nearly press all at once. The whole SHFFL'd air attack probably takes half a second to input and anyone looking at your controller would swear you're pressing all the buttons at the same time. It's just that fast, and you'll get used to it. Try doing it in slow mo in Training mode if you want a better understand of it (which can also assist in your muscle memory development)

Specifically if you're not seeing attacks come out on the SHFFL, you're out of order. It's hop>attack>fastfall>lcancel. Just practice the hop>attack together, and the fastfall>lancel together, then finally put them together. I say this because the hop>attack feel like they're input nearly at the same time, and the same goes for fastfall>lcancel. If there were any kind of wait gap, I would say it would be in between these. So you could think of it as hop>attack | fastfall>lcancel.

Either way if you do it enough you'll adapt. Just don't give up brother!
 

Sleepy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
651
Location
Pasadena, CA (626)
The c-stick isn't the best choice, at least not with Falcon. Falcon benefits alot from frame perfect aerials. I use both A and c-stick, but the best would obviously be to claw, so you can use one finger for c-stick and one finger for jump, allowing you to easily get the aerials out on the first possible frame.
Actually, I'd have to agree with him somewhat on this. I don't claw personally but I do understand what he's saying and why this might be a problematic situation without proper training.

The A button enables you to more quickly initiate an aerial that you would have to move your thumb to the C-stick in between. So for example on a fullhop double uair, you are able to more quickly get out the first uair, so as to have more time to get out the second. This not only enables you to more easily perform aerials and hit targets that are standing, but also enables you to choose when to go onto platforms.

More specifically...
On Fountain and Yoshi's, when the user initiates a fullhop (assuming they aren't doing the backflip animation triggered by pressing back as the hop is being performed) some aerials will cause the falcon to land on the middle platform. In the case of Dair, Nair, Uair, will all force him onto the platform if they are not initiated immediately after the hop is initiated.
If you use A for example, to do a uair, you can perform a second selected aerial more easily and not be forced onto the platform. This is performable with the C-stick, but most players will not be fast enough if not using a claw.

On Battlefield, Yoshis, Fountain, PK Stadium
The side platforms on these stages I believe to all be able to perform double uairs while rising and before landing on a platform from the mainstage. Essentially this allows the user to create a pseudo-aerial-wall if you will. So you can double uair (from the ground) in a fullhop and still land on the platform. This becomes useful in not only applying and retaining pressure, improving techskill and making noticable how quickly you are able to perform aerials before falcon lands from a fullhop.

So in other words, you can actually use the A button in the case of some aerials, to initiate them, thuogh it is more suggested that you use the C-stick if possible so that you can DI potential hits incoming while performing said aerials. If you can claw comfortably, you can perform all of these with your finger never leaving the space of the C-stick or X/Y. If it's already too much effort to switch, just perform certain aerials with the stick (within your control) but I'd caution using any aerial other than Uair with the stick, because it may force out strange problems. A uair, though you will be DI'ing up during any possible interruptions won't mess with DI's to the side, much (granted you aren't tilting heavily I guess). It won't cause you to fastfall or mess up a fastfall, the only potential problem is it can trigger a jump if you mash it up.
 

Da Shuffla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,810
I still recommend the Cstick. It is more technically demanding, but I think it gives the best results.

I use the tip of my thumb for the short hop, and the lower part for the aerial.

Just pick your best option. This game is awesome in that you can do one thing many different ways.
 
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Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
Clawing is the way forward, and what we need to push Falcon. Look at how well Gravy is doing, especialy his aerial game. At first it will seem impossible, and it's so tempting to give up and just keep doing your old grip, but just practice a little claw every day or at least every practice session you get. When facing players you can easily beat, switch to claw to practice and make it a little easier for your less experienced smash bro. (In friendlies ofc, phuck the zhit outta them in tourney.)
 
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treemustach

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
13
Pretty much this, but think of it with a gamecube controller.

Link: https://warosu.org/data/vr/img/0014/96/1395890039508.png

Edit: Your index finger should be on Y now so you can press A, B and use C with your thumb. This eliminates your need to jump with the thumb as well reducing time for attacks. This makes things like Short Hop laser with fox and falco a lot faster and easier.
 
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タオー

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
264
Location
San Francisco, California
3DS FC
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I agree that claw is a fresh approach to handling controllers (I'm quite the fan myself) but it seems the use of Z for aerials makes much more sense for SHFFLing; however it seems that no one has brought this up, am I just missing something obvious?
 

carnivore

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
55
Z Aerials have the problem of having the risk that you press Z too early and end up grabbing, and you pretty much lose all your pressure. Worst you get out of pressing the C-stick/A button too early is just doing an empty jump, something that's easy to compensate for. Z Aerials also don't work on grapple characters so it's less universal.

That being said Lord does actually use Z to do his aerials, and who are we to question the lord.
 
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MUNK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
15
Location
NY
Speed and consistency are key. Stick to the c-stick and just practice. Eventually you'll do it in you sleep.
 

MUNK

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
15
Location
NY
I've tried clawing but I'm just not used to it. I'm sure it just takes practice, like anything else.

I know gravy claws, so you could ask him for some tips.
 

treemustach

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
13
Since I made this post a little while back you guys have helped me a bunch. Once I saw gravy reverse 4-stock KDJ I was convinced that clawing was the way forward, not only for falcon players but for faster tech and such. Now that I have been practicing clawing every now and then I definitely think that it is worth the effort. I am not fully used to clawing but I have made immense progress, and now the main problem I have is getting wavedashes nice and far consistently (also moonwalking xD). As far as my experience goes I stand behind the fact that clawing is a surefire way of improving your game.
 
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