• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Concepts towards advancing metagame development in 20XX and forward

jacob91

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
39
(NOTE: This topic is intended to introduce ideas for discussion and feedback, not to predict the course the game would/should/could take. )

As we all know, Melee's metagame is one that is constantly evolving due to several factors, and I don't think it's a very contentious point to make in asserting that said development has only accelerated as the community as a whole improves the standard for technical ability, mindgames and option coverage, matchup knowledge, and of access and application of the internal mechanics and inner workings of the game.

That being said, the advancements made in response to this evolution are largely pioneered by the very best of the best - the top 100 tier of competitors. As they accumulate experience and solve problems to overcome challenges and weaknesses, new answers and fresh perspectives give players a new lease on how different techniques can be applied and made viable in different circumstances and compensate for a disadvantageous position. One example of this development in action is Armada's relatively recent utilization of fox's dtilt to give him an option previously overlooked in the puff matchup that allows for greater flexibility.

However, some might argue that the acceleration of this evolving metagame has stagnated or is approaching stagnation - a point inevitably will be reached where innovation in tactics for the tournament viable cast will become more and more evasive. Two statements that support this opinion are that human ability and perception is inherently imperfect and thus optimal answers can only be thought of in terms of human ability instead of what could in theory be possible assuming human ability could make consistent enough to be reliable - and second - the forefront of melee is tiny relative to the scene at large - and the real development in the metagame is primarily concentrated among that elite faction.

So one question that comes to mind following this is - how might we be able to potentially utilize the knowledge and technology that has become available more and more recently to raise the standard for ability in the community and/or to provide new insights to advance the metagame?

Well this is an open question, and I'm interested in hearing what the community has in mind to approach this problem.

However, I did stumble across some information that gave me an interesting - albeit still quite difficult - solution which wouldn't have even been considered possible not too long ago that is looking to be more and more realistic every day with the advancements made in dissecting melee down to its original programming - and I want to hear what others think of this concept -

Now I've never played starcraft - to be honest, I've never even seen it played. But from what I do know, it's an incredibly popular esport with a long history, a rich community, a high APM demand and a level of strategy that could be compared to chess - all of which could apply to melee somewhat. I read that the starcraft community actually holds tournaments in which different AI compete - some programmed by individuals and some programmed through joint effort. Some are even programmed to emulate the realistic potential of human execution and consistency.

If even a small portion of the development scene had the resources compiled to make such a thing possible for melee, the impact I believe it could have on the metagame would be significant. On one hand, no longer would players be as limited by their access to a savvy opponent, and on another, as such techniques are refined and AI made more and more realistic - the frame in which we view the game would manifest in new ways as different interpretations of an objective flowchart of decisions to make and actions to execute in different situations and allow the community a bounty of knowledge that before could only be gained more gradually.

However, I understand that in order to get there - technological complications aside - we would need a joint effort of some kind to analyze a given situation and systematically develop a methodology for addressing factors influencing decision making and how said factors can be influenced due to the players' position and actions.

Thoughts on this? Other ideas? I believe a community effort needs to be brought forth towards this common objective.
 

jacob91

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
39
EDIT: The TL;DR Version (so you get the gist and an idea whether or not this daunting block of text applies to you, please read more before replying critically)

The development of the metagame is limited by the frequency which elite players can play one another and innovate new solutions to old problems. This thread is an open prompt to rally for answers that allow the metagame more outlets to evolve. I introduce the concept of player-developed AI and the idea of hosting tournaments between AIs designed by different people and groups and the impact such an idea would have in providing a new framework for understanding the metagame, a new platform for its development, and a new tool for improving and practicing​



(NOTE: This topic is intended to introduce ideas for discussion and feedback, not to predict the course the game would/should/could take. )

As we all know, Melee's metagame is one that is constantly evolving due to several factors, and I don't think it's a very contentious point to make in asserting that said development has only accelerated as the community as a whole improves the standard for technical ability, mindgames and option coverage, matchup knowledge, and of access and application of the internal mechanics and inner workings of the game.

That being said, the advancements made in response to this evolution are largely pioneered by the very best of the best - the top 100 tier of competitors. As they accumulate experience and solve problems to overcome challenges and weaknesses, new answers and fresh perspectives give players a new lease on how different techniques can be applied and made viable in different circumstances and compensate for a disadvantageous position. One example of this development in action is Armada's relatively recent utilization of fox's dtilt to give him an option previously overlooked in the puff matchup that allows for greater flexibility.

However, some might argue that the acceleration of this evolving metagame has stagnated or is approaching stagnation - a point inevitably will be reached where innovation in tactics for the tournament viable cast will become more and more evasive. Two statements that support this opinion are that human ability and perception is inherently imperfect and thus optimal answers can only be thought of in terms of human ability instead of what could in theory be possible assuming human ability could make consistent enough to be reliable - and second - the forefront of melee is tiny relative to the scene at large - and the real development in the metagame is primarily concentrated among that elite faction.

So one question that comes to mind following this is - how might we be able to potentially utilize the knowledge and technology that has become available more and more recently to raise the standard for ability in the community and/or to provide new insights to advance the metagame?

Well this is an open question, and I'm interested in hearing what the community has in mind to approach this problem.

However, I did stumble across some information that gave me an interesting - albeit still quite difficult - solution which wouldn't have even been considered possible not too long ago that is looking to be more and more realistic every day with the advancements made in dissecting melee down to its original programming - and I want to hear what others think of this concept -

Now I've never played starcraft - to be honest, I've never even seen it played. But from what I do know, it's an incredibly popular esport with a long history, a rich community, a high APM demand and a level of strategy that could be compared to chess - all of which could apply to melee somewhat. I read that the starcraft community actually holds tournaments in which different AI compete - some programmed by individuals and some programmed through joint effort. Some are even programmed to emulate the realistic potential of human execution and consistency.

If even a small portion of the development scene had the resources compiled to make such a thing possible for melee, the impact I believe it could have on the metagame would be significant. On one hand, no longer would players be as limited by their access to a savvy opponent, and on another, as such techniques are refined and AI made more and more realistic - the frame in which we view the game would manifest in new ways as different interpretations of an objective flowchart of decisions to make and actions to execute in different situations and allow the community a bounty of knowledge that before could only be gained more gradually.

However, I understand that in order to get there - technological complications aside - we would need a joint effort of some kind to analyze a given situation and systematically develop a methodology for addressing factors influencing decision making and how said factors can be influenced due to the players' position and actions.

Thoughts on this? Other ideas? I believe a community effort needs to be brought forth towards this common objective.
 

Sudoi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
255
Location
North Myrtle Beach
NNID
Blargbla
Well, I skimmed through the thread, but still a good read.
There is currently in developent level 11 AI, that plays Fox. It's looking good, and there's a thread on it somewhere here in Meleeland.

It only works on Linux builds though, but still a good project.
 
Top Bottom