Competitive community have commitment issues?

[Road Death Wheel]

General complaints about smash 4 definitely has to be landing lag. When ask why this is a problem it generaly leads to "its unsafe to attack on shields" and virtually want all attacks to have little to regrets when using it.

Witch comes to make me believe that do people have problems with committing to there actions aka attacking knowing the move will leave you open in you get blocks or miss? I want to hear some honest opinions.

 

[Hitzel]

There should be times that moves are safe and times that moves are unsafe.

Moves being unsafe too often is not desired.

No one wants moves to be too safe either, people want a healthy balance. Massive lag on moves doesn't appaear to achieve that balance. People aren't being selfish, they want the game to be good.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There should be times that moves are safe and times that moves are unsafe.

Moves being unsafe too often is not desired.

No one wants moves to be too safe either, people want a healthy balance. Massive lag on moves doesn't appaear to achieve that balance. People aren't being selfish, they want the game to be good.

selfish? who said anything about that? And what characters are you saying have this massive lag?

 

[Hitzel]

When I said selfish, I was referring to players wanting their unsafe tactics to be safe instead of learning something else. That is selfish. I don't think that's why people want less landing lag; they don't want everything to be braindead safe so they don't have to put effort in, they want balance.

The general consensus here is that the landing lag on moves in Smash 4 appears to be too much.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

When I said selfish, I was referring to players wanting their unsafe tactics to be safe instead of learning something else. That is selfish. I don't think that's why people want less landing lag; they don't want everything to be braindead safe so they don't have to put effort in, they want balance.

The general consensus here is that the landing lag on moves in Smash 4 appears to be too much.

i see. thank you fot then non hostile reply. i know everyone generally complaining about marth's fair

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

As for the issue of landing lag, people have gone over it again and again and the general consensus is that it's not a universal thing. Almost every character that I've seen so far has at least one auto-cancelling or fully lagless aerial. For starters, every single ZAir attack in the game is completely lagless. Marth's UAir either auto-cancels or is lagless, Mario's UAir is lagless and his BAir auto-cancels, Samus's NAir/BAir autocancel and DAir has very little landing lag, Fox's FAir/BAir/DAir/UAir auto-cancel and his NAir has very little landing lag, Zelda's DAir auto-cancels, Sonic's FAir/BAir auto-cancel, Link's FAir auto-cancels, Toon Link's FAir auto-cancels, Sheik's BAir auto-cancels and her NAir has very little landing lag, Bowser's FAir/BAir auto-cancel, Little Mac's NAir auto-cancels (lol Little Mac aerials), and I'm sure there are others that I've missed, too.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

When I said selfish, I was referring to players wanting their unsafe tactics to be safe instead of learning something else. That is selfish. I don't think that's why people want less landing lag; they don't want everything to be braindead safe so they don't have to put effort in, they want balance.

The general consensus here is that the landing lag on moves in Smash 4 appears to be too much.

It used to be the general consensus of everyone that the earth was flat.

The general consensus is uninformed and jumps to conclusions.

In the case of "landing lag" in Smash 4 they are downright incorrect. Saying "the landing lag is too high in Smash 4" is not supported by what we've seen and know about the game. Plenty of moves show to have almost no landing lag.

Don't be a parrot, watch videos and make your own educated conclusions.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Don't be a parrot, watch videos and make your own educated conclusions.

>Implying that Hitzel and anyone who doesn't agree with you didn't form their own opinion.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

>Implying that Hitzel and anyone who doesn't agree with you didn't form their own opinion.

When you use the phrase "the general consensus here is", you are essentially paraphrasing a group of people. That's almost the definition of parroting.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think you might want to reword the thread title, lol. It should say "dashing based commitment."

I figured that was what you meant before.

However, some might translate it as "oh, what you're saying is competitive players won't commit to any game or anything because [insert reason here]."

Then again, those people don't read threads, so maybe we can stump the tl;dr people!

The general consensus here is that the landing lag on moves in Smash 4 appears to be too much.

It hurts that the non-lagless moves aerials are the ones without freaking massive amounts of landing lag.

It also hurts that most of those moves are minimally useful moves to begin with.

Now give many of the best aerial moves lagless landing and few of the worst aerial moves lagless landing and you have a very unbalanced tiers of aerial moves.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think you might want to reword the thread title, lol. It should say "dashing based commitment."

I figured that was what you meant before.

However, some might translate it as "oh, what you're saying is competitive players won't commit to any game or anything because [insert reason here]."

Then again, those people don't read threads, so maybe we can stump the tl;dr people!

It hurts that the non-lagless moves aerials are the ones without freaking massive amounts of landing lag.

It also hurts that most of those moves are minimally useful moves to begin with.

Now give many of the best aerial moves lagless landing and few of the worst aerial moves lagless landing and you have a very unbalanced tiers of aerial moves.

thank for the info about the title. i might change it later.
also are you saying the the moves that arent lagless have massive lag?

 

[Johnknight1]

thank for the info about the title. i might change it later.
also are you saying the the moves that arent lagless have massive lag?

No, the moves that don't have lagless landings usually are:
-Less useful moves.
-Have more lag regardless.
-Have much bigger weaknesses.

A comparison of this I can make that is perfect is Toon Link's back air vs. Toon Link's forward air.

Toon Link's Smash 4 forward air comes out slower, but it stays out longer, does more damage, can KO, sometimes can lead into combos (especially into a forward smash for a ton of damage), and has less than expected after-lag.

It also has lagless landing as well.

Toon Link's Smash 4 back air comes out faster, does faster and decently fast, doesn't stay out too long, can't KO until stupid high percentages, can't/barely can combo (it doesn't work at all like in Brawl where it could combo into itself or lead into footsie chases), and has a bit more than expected after-lag.

It also doesn't have lagless landing.

That's a gigantic difference.

That alone made me use the forward air quite often and NEVER use the back air.

If that game design stands, that's terrible, because that's just plain bad game design.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I think you might want to reword the thread title, lol. It should say "dashing based commitment."

I figured that was what you meant before.

However, some might translate it as "oh, what you're saying is competitive players won't commit to any game or anything because [insert reason here]."

Then again, those people don't read threads, so maybe we can stump the tl;dr people!

It hurts that the non-lagless moves aerials are the ones without freaking massive amounts of landing lag.

It also hurts that most of those moves are minimally useful moves to begin with.

Now give many of the best aerial moves lagless landing and few of the worst aerial moves lagless landing and you have a very unbalanced tiers of aerial moves.

To be honest, even in Melee's case, players find the most easy to utilize ability and abuse it to their benefit. It's incredibly difficult to balance a game like Smash to not only make all the characters relatively balanced, but make every move on every character an equal opportunity move in every situations. Some moves are meant to be situational or have less applications than others.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, the moves that don't have lagless landings usually are:
-Less useful moves.
-Have more lag regardless.
-Have much bigger weaknesses.

A comparison of this I can make that is perfect is Toon Link's back air vs. Toon Link's forward air.

Toon Link's Smash 4 forward air comes out slower, but it stays out longer, does more damage, can KO, sometimes can lead into combos (especially into a forward smash for a ton of damage), and has less than expected after-lag.

It also has lagless landing as well.

Toon Link's Smash 4 back air comes out faster, does faster and decently fast, doesn't stay out too long, can't KO until stupid high percentages, can't/barely can combo (it doesn't work at all like in Brawl where it could combo into itself or lead into footsie chases), and has a bit more than expected after-lag.

It also doesn't have lagless landing.

That's a gigantic difference.

That alone made me use the forward air quite often and NEVER use the back air.

If that game design stands, that's terrible, because that's just plain bad game design.

i if that move was ment to have more purpose to not be used in short hop.

 

[Hitzel]

*things

Aerial lag seems to be a common concern here. I meant to show that I was on the same page as the OP, not to speak in absoultes. Oops.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The reality is that from a purely functional perspective, the game appears to be fine, outside of a few minor issues here and there. It looks as though there'll be a decent number of combos, with most to all characters having some sort of combo game, as well as a few viable approach options. Overall, character balance seems to be pretty good, at least from what we can see in the demo. The more I actually see of the game, the more I see most of the issues people have with the game are overblown. Some aerials have more lag than they should, and hopefully that's being addressed, but overall the game doesn't really show any definite signs of the kind of global issues Brawl had. The main concerns regarding this game that seems to be valid are that the game doesn't seem to be quite as fast, free-flowing, open-ended, combo-friendly, or exciting as Melee/Project M, and as a result of this, the game might be just OK from a competitive perspective. However, because of Brawl/Project M, the community seems much less inclined to be patient, let the metagame develop, and make the most of what we've got.

 

[Raijinken]

Aerials have historically dominated grounded play. The way to fix this is to make aerials have higher risk and open ground options up to be safer. The game does need to encourage aggression, but a lot of more traditional (read: Melee) fans are unwilling to consider that a) the game isn't out, and b) there are ways besides short-hopped aerials that can be viable to approach.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Aerials have historically dominated grounded play. The way to fix this is to make aerials have higher risk and open ground options up to be safer. The game does need to encourage aggression, but a lot of more traditional (read: Melee) fans are unwilling to consider that a) the game isn't out, and b) there are ways besides short-hopped aerials that can be viable to approach.

How presumptuous.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

>Implying that Hitzel and anyone who doesn't agree with you didn't form their own opinion.

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

The problem with landing lag does not have much to do with the moves being safe actually, although for some moves it would (some moves are useless without being safe, like Falco's fair was in Brawl). Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth. The real problem with long landing lag is that you lose capacity to combo, quite the opposite in that you are punishing someone else for not being safe.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

The problem with landing lag does not have much to do with the moves being safe actually, although for some moves it would (some moves are useless without being safe, like Falco's fair was in Brawl). Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth. The real problem with long landing lag is that you lose capacity to combo, quite the opposite in that you are punishing someone else for not being safe.

i see that would make sense if there was not plenty of vids demonstrating combos. anyone see dem kirby combo! :D

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

The problem with landing lag does not have much to do with the moves being safe actually, although for some moves it would (some moves are useless without being safe, like Falco's fair was in Brawl). Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth. The real problem with long landing lag is that you lose capacity to combo, quite the opposite in that you are punishing someone else for not being safe.

And your approach is so much more unique...

"If you think this or disagree with my opinion, you must be a casual noob who doesn't understand the game at a true competitive level like I do".

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

i see that would make sense if there was not plenty of vids demonstrating combos. anyone see dem kirby combo! :D

Just because some combos are possible, of which almost all we've seen are low-percent up-air or up tilt, doesn't mean the combo game isn't hindered by landing lag.

It physically pains me to explain this to you. Try harder next time.

And your approach is so much more unique...

"If you think this or disagree with my opinion, you must be a casual noob who doesn't understand the game at a true competitive level like I do".

Well, Zipzo, do you understand the game at a true competitive level like I do or not?!

 

[Raijinken]

How presumptuous.

Allow me to adjust my statements, then, to be closer to neutral while still addressing the issues at hand.

"Aerial approaches have traditionally been safer and more versatile than a quick grounded approach. One potential way to reduce this disparity is to increase the endlag (and as a result, risk) of some aerial moves, while improving grounded options, such as dash attacks, to be more flexible in terms of combo followup and safety of initiation (which, as I read it, are the commonly cited benefits to a short-hopped aerial approach).

The game does indeed need to encourage aggression, but many players are more inclined to use a tried and true means of encouraging aggressive play, rather than experimenting with techniques that could potentially lead to a greater variety of viable approach methods for characters across the board."

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Just because some combos are possible, of which almost all we've seen are low-percent up-air or up tilt, doesn't mean the combo game isn't hindered by landing lag.

It physically pains me to explain this to you. Try harder next time.

Except that at various points we've clearly seen that landing lag != weaker combos. As long as they're still in hitstun, you can combo them. Pikachu's UAir into the ground > UTilt works in this game, despite the fairly significant landing lag on UAir. The same player that reported this also states that this was not a combo even in Melee. And as for the "lol it's just a UTilt juggle", you can then follow up with NAir or possibly UAir > DSpecial, or possibly even DAir (does that spike?) into other stuff yet again when they bounce.

Yes, combos in Smash are percentage-dependent and always have been. This goes both ways. The easiest combos to find are of course the ones that work best at lower percents, but at higher percents hitstun increases as well as launch distance. While the simple juggles won't work anymore, other things like ground-bounces from spikes (or, dare I say it, Samus's homing missiles) can become viable combo opportunities due to hitstun.

The way it works in Smash 4 is this: Hitstun increases incrementally for every 10% damage the target has. Some moves have no KB growth, but hitstun growth will occur regardless. Mario's UAir and Samus's homing missiles are examples of this type of move, as is probably pretty much every ZAir out there. They'll likely become increasingly abusable as combo tools the higher the foe's percent gets.

 

[Big-Cat]

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

The problem with landing lag does not have much to do with the moves being safe actually, although for some moves it would (some moves are useless without being safe, like Falco's fair was in Brawl). Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth. The real problem with long landing lag is that you lose capacity to combo, quite the opposite in that you are punishing someone else for not being safe.

So Little Mac has little to no combo potential. Kk.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Just because some combos are possible, of which almost all we've seen are low-percent up-air or up tilt, doesn't mean the combo game isn't hindered by landing lag.

It physically pains me to explain this to you. Try harder next time.




Well, Zipzo, do you understand the game at a true competitive level like I do or not?!

Football coaches don't play with their teams. It's common that veteran players can become coaches, but usually they are coaches because of their understanding of the game. You don't have to be an actual professional player to make intelligent logical conclusions that would apply to professional play.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even you, but undermining another's opinion solely because of your own assumption that you're better than them isn't really valid.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

So Little Mac has little to no combo potential. Kk.

Kuma, every week I see you go a little bit further off the deep end. I didn't say anything about combos, especially character specific ones, being completely neutered. I didn't even imply it.

Football coaches don't play with their teams. It's common that veteran players can become coaches, but usually they are coaches because of their understanding of the game. You don't have to be an actual professional player to make intelligent logical conclusions that would apply to professional play.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even you, but undermining another's opinion solely because of your own assumption that you're better than them isn't really valid.

Are you a Smash coach, by chance?

You seem to not be having too much fun with my sarcastic response. I'm interested in hearing where I actually have undermined someone's opinion solely because I'm better than them.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So Little Mac has little to no combo potential. Kk.

Well, I've heard that most of his combos are just DTilt > upward launch > USpecial, but we'll see how that goes. Besides, that argument doesn't apply to Little Mac anyway because of his lagless (but still not very good) NAir.

 

[Beats]

Allow me to adjust my statements, then, to be closer to neutral while still addressing the issues at hand.

"Aerial approaches have traditionally been safer and more versatile than a quick grounded approach. One potential way to reduce this disparity is to increase the endlag (and as a result, risk) of some aerial moves, while improving grounded options, such as dash attacks, to be more flexible in terms of combo followup and safety of initiation (which, as I read it, are the commonly cited benefits to a short-hopped aerial approach).

The game does indeed need to encourage aggression, but many players are more inclined to use a tried and true means of encouraging aggressive play, rather than experimenting with techniques that could potentially lead to a greater variety of viable approach methods for characters across the board."

If you want a better balance between grounded and aerial approach, you can accomplish it by buffing the grounded side and not touching the aerial side at all. Personally I don't think aerials really needed nerfing to begin with. More importantly than approaching, they are used to control space in neutral. The reason being you can weave in and out while maintaining hitboxes. And in the case of applying pressure, that also means easier control over spacing, allowing you to cross up and so forth. On the other hand, grounded moves render you immobile, or in some cases just slide a certain predictable distance, and are just a bit easier to punish. The benefit of being grounded is having a greater versatility of moves, and generally just keeping more options open.

They both already have benefits, and I think in balancing aerial and grounded game it would be beneficial to focus on these sorts of things rather than heedlessly adding landing lag just for the sake of it. Now, if there is good reason for increased landing lag separate to this, then that's fine. And I'd like to see how they approach the utility of aerials. But I really hope they consider all the options if they're really trying to shift to slightly more ground game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Just because some combos are possible, of which almost all we've seen are low-percent up-air or up tilt, doesn't mean the combo game isn't hindered by landing lag.

It physically pains me to explain this to you. Try harder next time.




Well, Zipzo, do you understand the game at a true competitive level like I do or not?!

kirby never used up air in that combo video. it was down air to down tilt to f smash and down air 2 up tilt twice to up air. what are you talking about.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

kirby never used up air in that combo video. it was down air to down tilt to f smash and down air 2 up tilt twice to up air. what are you talking about.

* Back air, not up air. Still, fair point as long as you don't accidentally refute yourself with a typo non-example.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

kirby never used up air in that combo video. it was down air to down tilt to f smash and down air 2 up tilt twice to up air. what are you talking about.

Just to make sure you're rooted in the same reality that I am, I'd like you to point out what video you're talking about because I don't recall mentioning one.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Just to make sure you're rooted in the same reality that I am, I'd like you to point out what video you're talking about because I don't recall mentioning one.

Oh, that? That one's in the Thread for Combos. It's hard to keep the two of them straight sometimes when both threads ended up on the same topic.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Just to make sure you're rooted in the same reality that I am, I'd like you to point out what video you're talking about because I don't recall mentioning one.

i just don't see why you had to explain anything in the first place bud.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Oh, that? That one's in the Thread for Combos. It's hard to keep the two of them straight sometimes when both threads ended up on the same topic.

I knew what combo video he was talking about, but I definitely didn't mention it... Hugo's thread used to run along similarly themed crap by SmashChu and Capps and so forth so I can relate.

i just don't see why you had to explain anything in the first place bud.

If you tilt the control stick away from where you're facing after grabbing an opponent you can perform a back throw

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You may want to take it in stride with the rest of us. The guy just really loves parrots

Oh dude, I frikkin' LOVE parrots- Waaaait a minute, you aren't talking about birds, are you? Now I've made myself sad.

In all seriousness, I personally want to wait until I play the game before I make any decisions on whether or not the aerial lag is good or not. Sure, it might suck for people who treat the ground like a hot plate, but for me, I think I'd love to see how this changes the meta-game. Personally, I'm placing my trust in Sakurai and placing my trust in the Namco-Bandai team helping balance it, and I'd like to think that at least a company like Namco-Bandai would know what they were doing when it came to fighting games.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Anyone who thinks that probably plays the game at a superficial depth.

Right there.

Are you a Smash coach, by chance?

You seem to not be having too much fun with my sarcastic response. I'm interested in hearing where I actually have undermined someone's opinion solely because I'm better than them.

You can't skate by in these discussions anymore with just charming rebuttals. You need to assess the argument, not the person or their experience.

Whether I'm a smash coach or not is irrelevant, it was an analogy meant to illustrate that one does simply not need to be a pro player to think like one. I used the coach analogy because in this example, the actual players listen to the non-player without question.

 

[josh bones]

Whether I'm a smash coach or not is irrelevant, it was an analogy meant to illustrate that one does simply not need to be a pro player to think like one. I used the coach analogy because in this example, the actual players listen to the non-player without question.

The diffrence is the non player in that scenario knows what they're talking about.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Right there.

Statistically speaking, I am correct 100% of the time that I am not wrong.

You can't skate by in these discussions anymore with just charming rebuttals.

Does it matter how I answer you when, if I had my own opinion, you'd just dismiss at parroting?

 

[Hitzel]

Why aren't you guys still discussing the question being asked in the OP? I think you have commitment issues.