Community Tier List

[Darrman]

There's a bunch of people making a community tier list. There's a good amount of input, and Mario is now in the B tier. Do you agree?

Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/swf-community-voted-tier-list-voting-on-a-tier-now.379736/

 

[aquaticpineapples]

I would say hes somewhere between B and C. Mario gets destroyed by all of the A tiers, while I think he could do great against the D tiers. Within B/C, his matchups are pretty equal

 

[Smashtistics]

I main Mario, and all my input comes from watching high level players at tournaments, or playing FG. I don't think Mario is as good as the best characters, but that he's not much below them.

Mario's combo game gets severely marginalized by Sheik, Diddy, Ness, Rosalina and some other top tier characters. I think this is what keeps him below some of those players. When he can't land big strings or combos he becomes less elite for sure.

Another one of his flaws is that he lacks a kill move that doesn't involve securing a hard read, except maybe down-smash, which is still a tough kill move because of the weak knock back. Most of what I'm saying here comes from watching elite talent though, and not from personal use.

At my level, playing FG until I find someone better than me, Mario is fine in almost all match ups. I don't find many high quality Diddy or Sheik players, but when I do, I don't really feel overmatched. Ness can be a tough match because of the back throw, but it's still a match I've won against good players, and seen tournament players win.

Mario is really versatile, and doesn't really have a particular match-up he can't win, and as the meta game continues, I can see him moving up in tier lists. The more characters are considered tournament ready, the better I think Mario will be.

 

[Xeze]

B tier is fine for Mario as the meta stands now. He clearly isn't as good as the A and S tier characters, but he isn't bad against them. Overall I feel Mario is a very solid character for tournaments.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I would say hes somewhere between B and C. Mario gets destroyed by all of the A tiers, while I think he could do great against the D tiers. Within B/C, his matchups are pretty equal

Mario's matchup against Ness isn't that bad, he has one of the better matchups in the game against Rosalina, and his matchup against Luigi is actually favorable.
But yeah, his placement is all right. He's definitely top 15.

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario wins against Ness.

Mario vs Luigi is debatable, but imo it's 45:55 in Mario:Luigi. It can be more favorable down the line if we develop solid "Don't get grabbed" techniques, because without them Luigi's weaknesses are extremely apparent.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario wins against Ness.

Mario vs Luigi is debatable, but imo it's 45:55 in Mario:Luigi. It can be more favorable down the line if we develop solid "Don't get grabbed" techniques, because without them Luigi's weaknesses are extremely apparent.

You think the matchup is in Luigi's favor because of his grab game? Personally, I'd say his grab game is null and void against Mario. That whole "attacking beats grabbing" thing that I hate so much actually works in Mario's favor here because his Frame 2 jab beats out all of Luigi's grabs. Even then, he'd have to actually get close to him to grab him, and seeing as how Luigi has the grab range of a speck of dust, that won't be an easy feat. Especially if he has Fireballs raining down on him, cause Luigi has a ***** of a time dealing with projectiles that he can't just Nair his way through. Funny how Mario never has a bad matchup against Luigi, not even in Brawl.
I'd say the only things keeping Big Red from joining his bro in A are his matchups against Pikachu, Yoshi, and to some extent, Rosalina.

 

[miniada]

You think the matchup is in Luigi's favor because of his grab game? Personally, I'd say his grab game is null and void against Mario. That whole "attacking beats grabbing" thing that I hate so much actually works in Mario's favor here because his Frame 2 jab beats out all of Luigi's grabs. Even then, he'd have to actually get close to him to grab him, and seeing as how Luigi has the grab range of a speck of dust, that won't be an easy feat. Especially if he has Fireballs raining down on him, cause Luigi has a ***** of a time dealing with projectiles that he can't just Nair his way through. Funny how Mario never has a bad matchup against Luigi, not even in Brawl.
I'd say the only things keeping Big Red from joining his bro in A are his matchups against Pikachu, Yoshi, and to some extent, Rosalina.

I didn't even think luigi should be in top tier in the newer patch yes but not when was basically beating everyone should be a high tier next to but lower because mario has more results luigi doesn't fit with the top tiers he loses to all of them except MAYBE he also loses to and I believe not to sure about the matchup in that time of the metagame he also hates his cons are that his traction sucks he has low range he is easy to ko since he is slippery and floaty he can't approach against campers like so overall he shouldn't have been top tier but now he is

 

[MarioMeteor]

I didn't even think luigi should be in top tier in the newer patch yes but not when was basically beating everyone should be a high tier next to but lower because mario has more results luigi doesn't fit with the top tiers he loses to all of them except MAYBE he also loses to and I believe not to sure about the matchup in that time of the metagame he also hates his cons are that his traction sucks he has low range he is easy to ko since he is slippery and floaty he can't approach against campers like so overall he shouldn't have been top tier but now he is

You do know Luigi was actually buffed in 1.10, right?

 

[miniada]

You do know Luigi was actually buffed in 1.10, right?

Yes I was talking about how I disagree about him being top tier when was still considered the best. but in 1.10 and the other patches after s reign of terror ended i agree he is CURRENTLY top tier sorry if I made it sound like I think luigi should currently be high tier

 

[Xeze]

Mario's good results were only by Ally and now Zenyou is starting to show his good Mario too.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You do know Luigi was actually buffed in 1.10, right?

Any combo gains he got from his F-air damage reduction are way more than offset by the 3 frame lag increase to his Fireball. Luigi is noticeably worse this patch.

Zan beat Mr.ConCon in tournament recently btw.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Any combo gains he got from his F-air damage reduction are way more than offset by the 3 frame lag increase to his Fireball. Luigi is noticeably worse this patch.

Zan beat Mr.ConCon in tournament recently btw.

The Fireball really isn't that noticeable unless you placed your life's savings into them pre-patch. Not when he has a better down tilt, a stronger FJP with a larger hitbox, and an up throw that kills.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Fireball really isn't that noticeable unless you placed your life's savings into them pre-patch. Not when he has a better down tilt, a stronger FJP with a larger hitbox, and an up throw that kills.

Luigi isn't really using D-tilt for neutral and he doesn't have Jab cancel setups into it like he did in Brawl, at best it's just extra flavor for his already overkill punish game. FJP hitbox increase doesn't really change a lot other than short characters getting hit by it more consistently (Tornado is still usually going to be more reliable for ending stocks anyway). And Luigi's U-throw is unchanged.

The fireball however was legitimately about 70% of Luigi's neutral game, and that being nerfed is a big deal when it means he no longer has a safe approach, and clanking/PSing his fireballs is MUCH safer.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Luigi isn't really using D-tilt for neutral and he doesn't have Jab cancel setups into it like he did in Brawl, at best it's just extra flavor for his already overkill punish game. FJP hitbox increase doesn't really change a lot other than short characters getting hit by it more consistently (Tornado is still usually going to be more reliable for ending stocks anyway). And Luigi's U-throw is unchanged.

The fireball however was legitimately about 70% of Luigi's neutral game, and that being nerfed is a big deal when it means he no longer has a safe approach, and clanking/PSing his fireballs is MUCH safer.

Then it's finally time Luigi players switch things up once in awhile. Dtilt trip into running up+b or grab would be a sick mix up from your stereotypical fireball storm into grab combo, and could even be a kill setup on other grab-heavy characters like Ness. His lag frames don't even nullify his old setup, so there's really not much to say about that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Then it's finally time Luigi players switch things up once in awhile. Dtilt trip into running up+b or grab would be a sick mix up from your stereotypical fireball storm into grab combo, and could even be a kill setup on other grab-heavy characters like Ness. His lag frames don't even nullify his old setup, so there's really not much to say about that.

I have no idea how you even say this with a straight face. Have you actually even tried to do fireball -> grab?

Come back when you realize that it's no longer safe to do. Characters can more reliably space around the grab or interrupt it with attacks and are put at much less of a disadvantage for clanking with the fireball. 3 frames is a HUGE difference. It's the difference between having a safe approach, and now not having one.

No seriously, previously there was effectively no gap between the fireball and grab. Post patch, I literally just labbed Marth clanking a fireball with his 5 frame Jab and still having enough time to interrupt a buffered dashgrab with a followup Jab. And you're going to tell me that the old setup works?

Luigi was already a fairly overrated character, and his most critical tool in neutral got nerfed, and not even by a small amount.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I have no idea how you even say this with a straight face. Have you actually even tried to do fireball -> grab?

Come back when you realize that it's no longer safe to do. Characters can more reliably space around the grab or interrupt it with attacks and are put at much less of a disadvantage for clanking with the fireball. 3 frames is a HUGE difference. It's the difference between having a safe approach, and now not having one.

No seriously, previously there was effectively no gap between the fireball and grab. Post patch, I literally just labbed Marth clanking a fireball with his 5 frame Jab and still having enough time to interrupt a buffered dashgrab with a followup Jab. And you're going to tell me that the old setup works?

Luigi was already a fairly overrated character, and his most critical tool in neutral got nerfed, and not even by a small amount.

Lol, so you mean that when someone shields your fireball, they can finally PUNISH you for running at them? Or when responding correctly with a jab? Now they actually have OPTIONS against this setup? Wow, who would have thought!
Old setup works still on characters who shield when in a particular range, or when they're hit with the fireball--Thus, the setup still works. Luigi has a stupid good nair that is fast, strong, and can kill at around 120% when not sour. Luigi's bair is also stupid powerful. He has two spikes, and outstanding recovery options. Your dtilt has a higher chance of tripping now, so start using that to your advantage when people pressure you instead of relying so much on fireball spam. Luigi's neutral is fine. I play Luigi often as a secondary, and his fireballs before were stupid good. Now they're just good.

tl;dr - Sorry Luigi's stupidly strong fireball to grab isn't 100% guaranteed anymore when someone jabs or shields.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi isn't really using D-tilt for neutral and he doesn't have Jab cancel setups into it like he did in Brawl, at best it's just extra flavor for his already overkill punish game. FJP hitbox increase doesn't really change a lot other than short characters getting hit by it more consistently (Tornado is still usually going to be more reliable for ending stocks anyway). And Luigi's U-throw is unchanged.

The fireball however was legitimately about 70% of Luigi's neutral game, and that being nerfed is a big deal when it means he no longer has a safe approach, and clanking/PSing his fireballs is MUCH safer.

Up throw's knockback scaling was buffed, it now kills about a good 20% earlier, give or take. That's without Rage, of course.
While the down tilt isn't too terribly important, it has its uses as an edgeguarding option, and the decrease in ending lag makes it a safer move in general.
The FJP buff was welcome because frankly, FJP was pretty damn weak pre-patch. While the Cyclone is more reliable out of a throw, that's not to say that FJP won't ever be used. If you just happen to DI badly, don't be surprised when your stock disappears at 50%.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up throw's knockback scaling was buffed, it now kills about a good 20% earlier, give or take. That's without Rage, of course.
While the down tilt isn't too terribly important, it has its uses as an edgeguarding option, and the decrease in ending lag makes it a safer move in general.
The FJP buff was welcome because frankly, FJP was pretty damn weak pre-patch. While the Cyclone is more reliable out of a throw, that's not to say that FJP won't ever be used. If you just happen to DI badly, don't be surprised when your stock disappears at 50%.

Nowhere in the patch notes or data dump does it suggest anywhere that Luigi's U-throw kills earlier. What nonsense are you making up? Keep in mind that many old KO percent records were made on the 3DS, where blastzones are larger.

Air FJP isn't really much stronger than Cyclone to be frank, and again, the buff really only matters against small characters who sometimes the sweetspot whiffed against.

tl;dr - Sorry Luigi's stupidly strong fireball to grab isn't 100% guaranteed anymore when someone jabs or shields.

That's exactly the point. Luigi now has to guess in neutral, and his opponent generally has a safe response to avoid his grab and wall out his approaches given Luigi's other options in neutral suck.

And as for the range where you can Fireball grab semi-legitimately, that's only max range. Closer than that, it's extremely far from guaranteed and Luigi has to guess and deal with having generally poor range and oos options.

Luigi was already turning out unfavorable matchups due to his weaknesses approaching, and with fireballs being nerfed, this probably makes all his matchups anywhere from 5-10 points less favorable. It's a massive nerf.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Nowhere in the patch notes or data dump does it suggest anywhere that Luigi's U-throw kills earlier. What nonsense are you making up? Keep in mind that many old KO percent records were made on the 3DS, where blastzones are larger.

Air FJP isn't really much stronger than Cyclone to be frank, and again, the buff really only matters against small characters who sometimes the sweetspot whiffed against.
That's exactly the point. Luigi now has to guess in neutral, and his opponent generally has a safe response to avoid his grab and wall out his approaches given Luigi's other options in neutral suck.

And as for the range where you can Fireball grab semi-legitimately, that's only max range. Closer than that, it's extremely far from guaranteed and Luigi has to guess and deal with having generally poor range and oos options.

Luigi was already turning out unfavorable matchups due to his weaknesses approaching, and with fireballs being nerfed, this probably makes all his matchups anywhere from 5-10 points less favorable. It's a massive nerf.

How unfavorable was Luigi compared to the rest of the cast, really? Even Zero calls him top 5.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How unfavorable was Luigi compared to the rest of the cast, really? Even Zero calls him top 5.

lol Zero. Who said not too long ago he thought Roy was top tier.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Nowhere in the patch notes or data dump does it suggest anywhere that Luigi's U-throw kills earlier. What nonsense are you making up? Keep in mind that many old KO percent records were made on the 3DS, where blastzones are larger.

Air FJP isn't really much stronger than Cyclone to be frank, and again, the buff really only matters against small characters who sometimes the sweetspot whiffed against.
That's exactly the point. Luigi now has to guess in neutral, and his opponent generally has a safe response to avoid his grab and wall out his approaches given Luigi's other options in neutral suck.

And as for the range where you can Fireball grab semi-legitimately, that's only max range. Closer than that, it's extremely far from guaranteed and Luigi has to guess and deal with having generally poor range and oos options.

Luigi was already turning out unfavorable matchups due to his weaknesses approaching, and with fireballs being nerfed, this probably makes all his matchups anywhere from 5-10 points less favorable. It's a massive nerf.

Actions speak louder than words. Test it yourself.

How unfavorable was Luigi compared to the rest of the cast, really? Even Zero calls him top 5.

Try not to take anything Zero says to heart.

 

[FrankTheStud]

lol Zero. Who said not too long ago he thought Roy was top tier.

Still... Compared to others, I wouldn't call him "unfavorable" for many matchups.

 

[Xeze]

ZeRo is an amazing player, but what he says about the character's placings is mostly based on how players perform vs him. Nairo took a game off him at CEO: "ZSS is like 2nd in the game." Expect him to say in the near future that Pikachu is the 2nd best now.