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I'm half way to convincing my dad to buy a commercial display for me if I trade him my current LCD TV so he can put it in the basement. Anyway, I was just wondering if commercial displays are 100% lag free, and if all of them are lag free or just some of them. I just don't entirely trust what I've heard about them, especially since its on the internet. I want to make absolutely sure before I buy one because the only real way to test it is to buy the TV and play on it, and I certainly don't want buyers remorse for such a hefty purchase.
Ok I decided not to be lazy and actually looked at TVs. Apparently TVs do exist with 2 or even 1 ms response time, and apparently plasmas have 0 response time, but does that necessarily equate to input lag time? Some sources seem to lean toward those two quantities being the same, and other convey just the opposite message.
Pretty sure they aren't the same, cuz it seems like every hdtv has a response time of 5 ms or less but they still have input lag. From what I've heard the commercial displays don't lag but I've only been able to find them online.
So commercial displays don't have post processing but still have response time is what you're saying? I just looked at the first one that came up on google and the cheapest ones had an 8ms response time, which I guess means that the command you input would happen on the next frame, which is what happens on CRTs. I really wish I could try one out somewhere.
I was talking about how all tvs nowadays have low refresh rates, idk if that's what you were talking about. But I'm pretty sure that doesn't have anything to do with lag
From what I've been told, the lag is a result of the TV having to convert the cube's signal for some reason. If you are playing on an Xbox, LCDs with good response times work fine. I play Xbox on a big plasma, and the input lag is REALLY low, but playing Melee on it is like 5+ frames behind, making it horrendous.
Moral of the story, don't trust the manufacturer's response times because that isn't what determines how bad a TV lags.
response time: how fast your tv can physically change to display an image - like to change the crystals in an lcd, which can take 2 or 8 or whatever milliseconds.
[COLLAPSE="what this means"]smash runs at 60fps, but you only see 30fps, unless you're running component cables and progressive scan mode. either way, 60fps reduces down to 1 frame per second, which means it takes 16.67ms to show. so if you're playing at 60fps, the tv will display a new frame every 16.67ms. if your response time is above that, then the tv will still be displaying the last image while it's starting to show the new one. and this is what we call ghosting. it's not really that big of a deal.
[/COLLAPSE]
input lag/post-processing - what your tv has to do to upscale or convert your video input signal to fit the tv's native resolution - which takes time.
[COLLAPSE="what that means"]your wii outputs a lower display resolution than your lcd or plasma can accept. normally, the hardware (the wii) does the converting for this (like how you can change the resolution on an xbox), but since it can't, the tv has to do the work (post-process the video image), and this extra step creates 'input lag.' and this causes people to die, because they can miss sweet-spotting a ledge or tech slightly too late.[/COLLAPSE]
short answer: wii can never* be lag-free on lcd or plasma tvs no matter what the response time or refresh rate, because the video signal has to be converted, and that takes a bit of time.
[COLLAPSE="what's it matter?"]you can still have competitive fun with (newer) lcd and plasma tvs. just don't expect to win any crt tv-based tournaments anytime soon.[/COLLAPSE]
*
unless your tv has wii hardware built into it which can render the game at different resolutions... and this is how the emu-run ssb videos are 720p.
This isn't only for Smash, I should've specified that earlier. I also want to play Blazblue and Marvel on it, along with any other PS3 games that I acquire. I notice that the lag for older games is worse as you mentioned, but there is still input lag for games whose resolutions match the TV's, most noticeable in Rock Band and other rhythm games. Is there an easy way to lessen that kind of lag?
The rhythm games all have lag syncing, so you shouldn't be worried about that. Checking response times for Xbox/PS3 is sufficient, but I've honestly never heard of anyone getting a non-CRT to play without lag for Melee.
response time: how fast your tv can physically change to display an image - like to change the crystals in an lcd, which can take 2 or 8 or whatever milliseconds.
[COLLAPSE="what this means"]smash runs at 60fps, but you only see 30fps, unless you're running component cables and progressive scan mode. either way, 60fps reduces down to 1 frame per second, which means it takes 1.67ms to show. so if you're playing at 60fps, the tv will display a new frame every 1.67ms. if your response time is above that, then the tv will still be displaying the last image while it's starting to show the new one. and this is what we call ghosting. it's not really that big of a deal.
[/COLLAPSE]
Finding an LCD TV without lag is quite difficult. The Gamecube only outputs an analog (composite) signal, which, in summary, CRT TVs (the fat ones) simply grab and output directly. LCD TVs have lag because the analog signal needs to be converted to a digital format and, in many cases, upscaled to fit the screen. Using component or HDMI can often remove much of the input lag but not necessarily remove it entirely. (Component is also analog.)
The Viewsonic NX2232w is the TV used at MLG, or so I've heard. So, that TV should have minimal/no lag. What it basically comes down to is that there will be no input lag if the TV can process and convert the signal fast enough. Some LCD TVs can. Most can't.
The only real way to test input lag is to play games on it. If you're making a large purchase, just explain your situation to an employee and see if you will be allowed to test the lag on the TV. However, you really need to know what you're feeling for, especially if you don't often play on a CRT for comparison.
This isn't only for Smash, I should've specified that earlier. I also want to play Blazblue and Marvel on it, along with any other PS3 games that I acquire. I notice that the lag for older games is worse as you mentioned, but there is still input lag for games whose resolutions match the TV's, most noticeable in Rock Band and other rhythm games. Is there an easy way to lessen that kind of lag?
if they match... there shouldn't be input lag. check your settings?
because otherwise... no, there really isn't a way (unless you calibrate using in-game settings, like bones said) edit: i mean, you can also set your tv to 'game mode', which reduces some of the post-processing, resulting in slightly less quality picture, but faster display time.
Buying a commercial display is very likely a waste of money.
You'd be better served buying a decent response-rate HDTV and then a separate scaler for your input. This would let you play close to lagless melee on most other TVs you'd run into in the future as well.
Most fast response televisions sit at an imperceivable lag level on modern games, it can work the same for smash if you're able to send at one if it's native resolutions. It's also probably cheaper to buy a $200-$500 scaler than it is to drop 5 or 6 grand on a commercial display.
Sidebar: the PS3 has 2 frames of input lag by default on every single game.
...What it basically comes down to is that there will be no input lag if the TV can process and convert the signal fast enough. Some LCD TVs can. Most can't.
hm... well, i haven't tried one myself, and since i haven't seen someone like silent wolf come in here and say 'yeah i tried it - there really is no lag,' then... alright, perhaps it's possible then... (i mean it makes sense hypothetically at least).
The only real way to test input lag is to play games on it. If you're making a large purchase, just explain your situation to an employee and see if you will be allowed to test the lag on the TV. However, you really need to know what you're feeling for, especially if you don't often play on a CRT for comparison.
If what you said about PS3 is true, it could be that lag that I'm detecting on my HD games and it has nothing to do with my TV.
Also, don't get me wrong, I always play smash on a CRT, I was just wondering if I could you know... not do that. The only remaining CRT in my house is dying a slow death. I play other games in my LCD because I care about them less.
Even if you are playing on an LCD, you just learn the timings needed. Such as an L-cancels timing is no different, you just start it at a different visual queue. Same with a sweetspot, you start it at a slightly different visual state but with the same exact timing. Yea you won't be able to see them dash the frame they start dashing towards you, maybe on the next frame, but you'll still hear the stick click anyways. Idk, the lag issue is gay but less of a problem than you think. You simply learn the timing of what works and what doesn't. If the lag made you L cancel too late then you know the timing that is too late, then you just adjust it to whatever the correct timing is and use the correct timing.
I have to use an LCD over a CRT because I move around too much to be transporting bulkier display.
Also, my 1080p tv seems to have quite a bit more lag than my smaller 720p tv (which I play smash on). The 720p one seems almost minimal which isn't bad. The 1080p one pissed me off though. BTW I got component cables but don't use them yet because I need a few things for my recording setup before I do so I'm sure it can be further reduced, which on my 720p would be quite nice.
Also I used to have that older viewsonic one it was pretty legit.
not bad was only 150 bucks at compusa or whatever.
The easiest way to tell how much lag a tv has is to L-Cancel something. The closer you can visually get to the ground without visually landing yet and still hit the L-Cancel lets you know how much lag the TV has.
If what you said about PS3 is true, it could be that lag that I'm detecting on my HD games and it has nothing to do with my TV.
Also, don't get me wrong, I always play smash on a CRT, I was just wondering if I could you know... not do that. The only remaining CRT in my house is dying a slow death. I play other games in my LCD because I care about them less.
Here's video proof of PS3 lag. It has also been independently confirmed on MvC3 and several other games with cross platform ports. It's not a huge deal on anything but fighting games, but it's there.
Like I said before, a decent scaler will allow you to play smash on modern HDTVs with an impercievable amount of lag. Look for a VGA box or upscan converter for RCA signals (I think Hori still makes one). You want to hook your Gamecube up to your TV with VGA if possible because it will (almost universally) not apply any filtering or scaling to that input, allowing you to get latency very close to the actual refresh time of the screen.
Get a display without (or turn-off-able) post-processing, use component cables, and make sure to turn progressive scan mode on. Try to get a 720p instead of a 1080x, as it won't have to upscale the GC's signal so much.
There are plenty of LCD TVs that will not lag when you use the proper cables and settings, you just have to look for them. It's hard to find ones that will not lag if you use composite ("yellow") video cables - seriously, just get some component cables.
Aren't component cables for gamecube absurdly hard to find? I recall several threads noting this. If it works on the wii with wii component cables though I would definitely buy some.
Get a display without (or turn-off-able) post-processing, use component cables, and make sure to turn progressive scan mode on. Try to get a 720p instead of a 1080x, as it won't have to upscale the GC's signal so much.
There are plenty of LCD TVs that will not lag when you use the proper cables and settings, you just have to look for them. It's hard to find ones that will not lag if you use composite ("yellow") video cables - seriously, just get some component cables.
Buying a 720p television is not a great decision if you plan on using it for more modern games, especially since 1080p is pretty much the de facto standard at this point.
There is no time difference in between scaling 480p between 720p or 1080p though, it's a pretty simple bitshift(s) and add(s) (the resolutions are a multiple of 2 apart, making it computationally easy).
Up-scaling 480i instead of 480p substantially increases the processing time necessary though. Deinterlace algorithms can be very slow and unpleasant to deal with.
Aren't component cables for gamecube absurdly hard to find? I recall several threads noting this. If it works on the wii with wii component cables though I would definitely buy some.
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Cable-GameLink-Component-Stereo/dp/B000NWDX6S
^ These cables are really good. I use them for my only Tv that is a CRT just to improve the texture quality(it literally made everything vibrantly glow colors, I mean you don't notice certain things until you have the component cable quality to see all the detail). But like everyone else and other people I've talked to says: it should reduce the lag on HDTV b/c of less processing or the progressive scan or something. when you use the component cables The Gamecube game "of melee" will ask you if you want to turn on progressive scan and say yes (progressive scan is l33t and takes away hard to notice jitters, and you can't get progressive scan when using noob composite cables)(you can notice not having progressive scan when you turn on brawl and go to the deflicker thing and turn it off, and you'll notice jitters because the deflicker is just making the game blurrier so it's harder to notice, but with progressive scan you don't need it on)
Also I got those cables when they were $19, so now they're even more of a steal for being only $15
Massive, interesting link, thanks. I guess it just takes that much longer to process it or something through the PS3?
Shoopman, the original GC component cablse are hard/expensive/impossible to find, but you can find other ways - most people just play with a Wii now anyway, and those component cables are cheap and available.
And Massive, doesn't the 1080/720 lag difference also come from the size - does that even make sense? That there is physically more space.. just curious. Otherwise, it'd just be brand/model dependent, like you implied.
The main idea is that there is a small lag introduced to smooth out the differences between wired and wireless controllers. Otherwise wireless PS3 controllers would have a disadvantage to wired.
Something similar exists in brawl where the wii introduces a 117 ms lag to compensate for the possible use of wiimotes.
It doesn't really matter in the long run since most people get used to it pretty quick.
And Massive, doesn't the 1080/720 lag difference also come from the size - does that even make sense? That there is physically more space.. just curious. Otherwise, it'd just be brand/model dependent, like you implied.
It is, for the most part, just a brand/model difference.
It takes light around 6.1 nanoseconds to move ~6 feet (more than the data will move in your TV, very likely).
Electrical signals usually move very, very close to the speed of light.
The time difference between drawing 1920x1080's worth of pixels is negligible vs drawing 1280x720's worth, even if there are more twice as many to be drawn.
There is no physical limitation to drawing speed related to screen size unless you were projecting onto the moon or some other equally outrageous thing.
I'd actually argue that it's not the "commercial display" that makes it lag any less. I just moved out a college hangout building. They have "commercial displays" and they lagged HORRIBLY. IMO the best option is to check it out before you buy it.
Aren't component cables for gamecube absurdly hard to find? I recall several threads noting this. If it works on the wii with wii component cables though I would definitely buy some.
buy the wii component cables, same ****. That's the nice part about nintendo, the AV cables have been the same hookup for quite some time... though I never tried pluggin it into my 64
