Combating Dk

[Dancin Jesus]

I've lost a good amount of skill on the time of my absence and I'm entering a tournament in the next week. Was wondering how you guys edge guard Dk and with stand his high damage. My buddy always plays with him and even though he isn't a solid player he rarely losses with dk because of the damage. I play as fox and ness mainly. Sorry bout to be off break at work so I was rushed typing this

 

[Uair]

Get above DK and dair when he uses upB.

 

[Annex]

If you want to go out and challenge DK offstage make sure you come from above

If you want to edgeguard from the stage, wait until he upb's and figure out if he'll be able to land on the stage with it or if he'll have to go to the ledge.

If he has to go to the ledge, wait until his upb is almost done and bair/dsmash/dair/nair him with fox or dsmash/dair/nair with ness. You can hit them him the side but it's a bit safer to go from above. Ignore fadeaways and jukes. After he uses upb you know the time he's gonna have to be at the ledge, so just wait for that, but don't wait so close to the ledge that he can come in and hit you while you're just standing there

If they upb so that they can land on stage then go to the ledge and just shield, wait for their upb to run out, and then do anything you want to them

If they upb so that they're coming from really high up they'll probably end up living unless they're like >130% and you can kill them with uair, but if this guy sucks he'll probably do the same thing every time in that situation and you can just read how he'll land on stage and punish with whatever

 

[SSBMagy]

On the edge, you just need to side smash, if he is low enough where it looks like you can't hit him, shine. And on the stage, don't rush, play defensive , if he tries to run at you laser him, and if he jumps at you just move away and grab when he lands. it's 3:45 in the morning. I'll fix the errors later, hopefully this is readable.

 

[Ælude]

With ness its super easy and straightforward. Dair is so easy and effective.

It should be very common to get a stock off dk as both characters by "ledge hogging" and should be pretty easy to tell when he's trying or forced to go to the ledge so make sure your comfortable with that.

Fox is not straightforward like ness however and has a hundred different situational things he can do. You'll have to act accordingly depending on what height, distance, and timing dk uses his recovery - look for patterns.

 

[Dancin Jesus]

Appreciate all the replies. My issue is the damage it takes for DK to be knocked out. I can dominate almost anyone except one person who always plays DK. He is a very good player, but only with DK. I find myself being thrown out near 60% with ness. I think you all helped me realize that I am attacking way too often without playing defense.

 

[Uair]

Appreciate all the replies. My issue is the damage it takes for DK to be knocked out. I can dominate almost anyone except one person who always plays DK. He is a very good player, but only with DK. I find myself being thrown out near 60% with ness. I think you all helped me realize that I am attacking way too often without playing defense.

Attacking = defense. DK can't approach ness' utilt for example.

 

[caneut]

Attacking = defense. DK can't approach ness' utilt for example.

smasherx you don't even play smash what do you know

 

[Uair]

smasherx you don't even play smash what do you know

Ness uair has priority of DK dair..... there is no way for DK to approach what aside from accusing me of being one of your kaillera friends do you have to argue what i said lol? Troll.

 

[Grahamaglam]

I had no idea DK could only approach from directly above Ness.

 

[Uair]

I had no idea DK could only approach from directly above Ness.

You and shears both don't play real smash. Bair is going to extend your hitbox making you get caught in Uair easier. And grabbing wont work unless maybe you're at high enough priority maybe but probably not.

Get good.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Nobody said anything about back air either.
Priority doesn't exist.
Just grab Ness or ub through his attacks.
OWNED
PWNED
100%
BETTER
BEST

 

[Uair]

Nobody said anything about back air either.
Priority doesn't exist.
Just grab Ness or ub through his attacks.
OWNED
PWNED
100%
BETTER
BEST

Thats what i was thinking but ness you gotta space that, if you come too close and grab you'll just get hit.

 

[Deleted member]

as yoshi, spikes are great, but you have to be careful. i find eggs are pretty effective as well.

 

[Uair]

as yoshi, spikes are great, but you have to be careful. i find eggs are pretty effective as well.

Above/Below egg shells / Fair, is it that hard to understand?

 

[Hentenaar]

No one asked about yoshi.

Your best bet sounds like it'll be to get the dk off stage and then spike him

 

[Yashoku]

Best option is abuse dk's poor vertical recovery. DK is slow so you can easily pressure him.

 

[Deleted member]

Best option is abuse dk's poor horizontal recovery. DK is slow so you can easily pressure him.

slow in general, or in that specific situation?

 

[Yashoku]

slow in general, or in that specific situation?

DK is a generally slow char which limits DK players to using only a few attacks for most situations and also allows him to be an easily spiked and edgegaurded/edgehogged.
Most of DKs skills aren't viable in most situations without being easily punished. Therefore what you see from DK players is a lot of spacing and prediction; they'll cast out a move early waiting for it's hitbox frames to come out when they reach their opponent.
Easy counter to this is applying pressure to DK (playing aggressively). Once you're out of close hitbox range space yourself far enough so you can't be beat by DK until you get an opening.

Also, just in general DK counter: try to avoid platform play; a DK player will use platforms to their advantage to speed up ariels and to maximize the effectiveness of the latent hitboxes. Best to try to space on the floor or pressure on the same platform.

 

[Annex]

In what way is DK slow

 

[Yashoku]

In what way is DK slow

Just watch Isai play DK. DK is very limited otherwise he's too slow to be viable to play.

 

[Uair]

Just watch Isai play DK. DK is very limited otherwise he's too slow to be viable to play.

Isai sucks with DK.

DK is really big so he gets from point A to point B literally faster than a lot of characters. By being slow people mean how long some of his moves last, Like uptilt, dash, his down/bair are pretty long too.

But in general DK is one of the faster characters in game, at least thanks to his size he is. Giant DK is even faster in that relevance.

 

[Yashoku]

I'm not talking about the speed of the character. I'm talking about the speed of DK's moveset.
http://framedisplay.onlinessb.com/webfd/framedisplay.html

 

[Uair]

I'm not talking about the speed of the character. I'm talking about the speed of DK's moveset.
http://framedisplay.onlinessb.com/webfd/framedisplay.html

All of DK's airials besides Fair are relatively long and his utilt ftilt and his jab is slowest in game I think. I mentioned most people when saying DK is slow are referring to his moves, that doesn't mean they are slow, they just last longer. If you feel moves that last longer, are slow and limiting then you are not playing right to begin with.

DK is one of the easiest characters to play because his moves last longer than others not to mention he's the largest character which also greatly helps his seemingly average movement speeds.

 

[Dancin Jesus]

My issue is that Dk is practically invincible when doing his up B. I've gotten much better, and the tournament was pushed back cause it was falling on superbowl sunday, then valentines day and no one could make it. I still have some time and I can beat every person at the tournament besides the guy playing DK. Since reading these posts I have managed to beat him in practices about 20% of the time we play, which is a giant increase from 0% lol. My main issue is getting donkey punched during ness's long recovery time from his Up B.

 

[Uair]

My issue is that Dk is practically invincible when doing his up B. I've gotten much better, and the tournament was pushed back cause it was falling on superbowl sunday, then valentines day and no one could make it. I still have some time and I can beat every person at the tournament besides the guy playing DK. Since reading these posts I have managed to beat him in practices about 20% of the time we play, which is a giant increase from 0% lol. My main issue is getting donkey punched during ness's long recovery time from his Up B.

Ness counter picks DK. Ness' recovery takes skill pure and simple, you got to be able to go where u want and know where to go, and when you got that his range and invincibility helps a ton. All you got to do against DK is the basic ness approaches, uair, tuptit, uairs, bair, dair.

 

[caneut]

Ness counter picks DK. Ness' recovery takes skill pure and simple, you got to be able to go where u want and know where to go, and when you got that his range and invincibility helps a ton. All you got to do against DK is the basic ness approaches, uair, tuptit, uairs, bair, dair.

smasherx please shut up

 

[Hanshee]

Isai sucks with DK.

DK is really big so he gets from point A to point B literally faster than a lot of characters. By being slow people mean how long some of his moves last, Like uptilt, dash, his down/bair are pretty long too.

But in general DK is one of the faster characters in game, at least thanks to his size he is. Giant DK is even faster in that relevance.

How is weight measured is a high # of weight display how squishy they are? that would make sense.

 

[Uair]

How is weight measured is a high # of weight display how squishy they are? that would make sense.

what? Weight does not correlate with speed.

 

[Hanshee]

what? Weight does not correlate with speed.

Sorry, i didn't word that correctly. I just thought it's strange that the table would measure the lightest character (jiggly) as a 1.3 when while DK is .83. I feel like it's counter intuitive to have the high number represent the lowest weight just my two cents.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

Sorry, i didn't word that correctly. I just thought it's strange that the table would measure the lightest character (jiggly) as a 1.3 when while DK is .83. I feel like it's counter intuitive to have the high number represent the lowest weight just my two cents.

Think of that number as a "knockback multiplier"

 

[Deleted member]

Think of that number as a "knockback multiplier"

what does that mean? ^.^

 

[Uair]

what does that mean? ^.^

lol, the weight is how far you get knocked back by an attack..... Mario would be the standard, DK is heavy, jiggly is light.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

what does that mean? ^.^

Let´s think that Mario´s UpSmash has "1" of knockback on any character with 0%, Jiggly is lighter than DK so Jiggly will go further

So: Attack´s Knockback * Knockback Multiplier (Weight) = Total Knockback
Jiggly = 1 * 1,3 = 1,3
DK = 1 * 0,83 = 0,83

Jiggly goes further

I don´t know, is the way I thought when I read that chart the first time

 

[Uair]

Let´s think that Mario´s UpSmash has "1" of knockback on any character with 0%, Jiggly is lighter than DK so Jiggly will go further

So: Attack´s Knockback * Knockback Multiplier (Weight) = Total Knockback
Jiggly = 1 * 1,3 = 1,3
DK = 1 * 0,83 = 0,83

Jiggly goes further

I don´t know, is the way I thought when I read that chart the first time

All attacks two knockback options, Regular hits where the hitbox overlaps/goes through the characters hitbox, and Weak spots are when you hit them at the sides and edges of your hitbox or when there is as little hitbox volume being inside/overlapping the character's hitbox.

The attack's regular hit's knockback is based off the damage it does, which is why Fox's first uair kick can be used to juggle somebody despite their % because it does 1 single damage therefor it's knockback is so low that you could do it from 0% - 999% if you were able to consistently spaced his uair's first hit.

An easy way to see this is to go into training mode, use Falcon punch on hyrule then use DK full swing punch, falcon punch does like 26% while DK's does 32% and the knockback based on that difference is significant.

 

[Uair]

Also don't forget the higher the % the "lighter" the character becomes.

 

[Grahamaglam]

All attacks two knockback options, Regular hits where the hitbox overlaps/goes through the characters hitbox, and Weak spots are when you hit them at the sides and edges of your hitbox or when there is as little hitbox volume being inside/overlapping the character's hitbox.

The attack's regular hit's knockback is based off the damage it does, which is why Fox's first uair kick can be used to juggle somebody despite their % because it does 1 single damage therefor it's knockback is so low that you could do it from 0% - 999% if you were able to consistently spaced his uair's first hit.

This is all wrong.

First paragraph: There are plenty of moves that have only strong hitboxes whether they hit at the end of a move or barely touch their opponent. It doesn't matter how much of your hitbox overlaps with a hurtbox. If you hit with a strong hitbox, you get a strong hit no matter how little the hitbox touches the opponent or if a huge part of your weak hitbox hits an opponent, you still get a weak hit. Link's up tilt and down tilt all have only a strong hitbox. Falcon punch and DK punch are the same way, to give examples

Second paragraph: The first hit of fox's up air has a fixed knockback, meaning that no matter the percent of the opponent, the knockback will always be the same dependent on the character's weight. There are other fixed knockback moves such as Yoshi's up tilt and down tilt, Fox's low angled forward tilt and his shine, and DK's down b to name some. These all do more that 1% damage but still have fixed knockback.

Moves also have base knockback and knockback scaling. Base knockback is how much knockback a move will do at 0% on an opponent and knockback scaling is that, depending on the opponent's percent, different moves that may do the same damage will have very different knockback at higher and lower percents. A good example of this is comparing pika's down air and thunder. Pika's down air does 13% damage while his thunder does 12% damage. At low percents, thunder will deal more knockback than down air even though it deals less damage since it has a high base knockback. However, since thunder has poor knockback scaling, once you get up to mid and high percents, thunder will do way less knock back than down air and will do about the same as forward tilt which does 10% damage.

 

[caneut]

All attacks two knockback options, Regular hits where the hitbox overlaps/goes through the characters hitbox, and Weak spots are when you hit them at the sides and edges of your hitbox or when there is as little hitbox volume being inside/overlapping the character's hitbox.

The attack's regular hit's knockback is based off the damage it does, which is why Fox's first uair kick can be used to juggle somebody despite their % because it does 1 single damage therefor it's knockback is so low that you could do it from 0% - 999% if you were able to consistently spaced his uair's first hit.

An easy way to see this is to go into training mode, use Falcon punch on hyrule then use DK full swing punch, falcon punch does like 26% while DK's does 32% and the knockback based on that difference is significant.

Also don't forget the higher the % the "lighter" the character becomes.

smasherx when are you going to shut up

 

[Uair]

This is all wrong.

tl;dr

No it's not, you even said It was correct. There are different types of attack hitboxes like foxes shine and his uair but in general most every move is going to bide by the principles I stated.

You didn't need 3+ paragraphs, Learn some rhetoric skills please. You brought up a good point about the fixed attacks like Fox's uair, Ness's Utilt, etc... But that doesn't mean what I said was all wrong lol. The only thing I was wrong about was foxes uair, in every other sense what I said was most definitely true. The argument against that being Pikachu's dair vs downB is irrelevant because you're talking about the lighting bolt it's self not the thunder impact, that knockback is always to the side and upward, it is a fixed hitbox like you said but it's not fixed-fixed, it has a knockback multiplier.

 

[Uair]

smasherx when are you going to shut up

I personally may consider not posting on these forums anymore if you make a formal apology to me and the community for your blatant trolling and lack of empathy for others. I will not accept it if you do it grudgingly either, so do it with gusto or don't do it at all.