Clones Don't Take Up Slots

[Dragonbreath]

Whenever I go into the character discussion forum, I'm always seeing people beaten over the head with the 'clones are bad' stick. This is mildly irritating me (Is there a smiley for that?). I'm just going to skip to the points and my arguments against them, m'kay?

Point: There is a maximum amount of characters, and clones would be a waste of a character slot.

Counterpoint: Are we certain of that? We've seen estimates from 30 to 50, with no reasonable way to disprove them. Brawl will have a specific number of characters when it is released, and I highly doubt Sakurai would make 40 characters and just stop if there was still a reasonable chunk of time from now to the release. If there was time and money left, he would use it. He is, after all, thinking of everything.
And even if Sakurai has given us a number already (Which I don't recall), times change, and this game is choked with rumors anyway.

Point: Making a clone character takes time. Sakurai's time would be better spent making completely original movesets.

Counterpoint: Well, perhaps. But a clone character takes much less time and effort to code than a completely new one. The hardest part of the job would be changing the graphical appearance, or perhaps just putting in a few new moves. One move is a lot easier to make than a new moveset. So, while it would take time away from making new movesets, it's more of a detour than a wrong turn.
Here's a metaphor: Sakurai is a deliveryman. His delivery is a bunch of cooking pots, which represent characters in Brawl. There is a limited amount of space in the delivery van, which represents the limited amount of time and budget money he has. He can only make one delivery, so he must put in as many pots as he can in one trip.
To save deliver more pots, he can put smaller pots inside the 'starter' pots, thus delivering a larger number of pots in that single trip. The smaller pots represent clone characters, taking up almost no space in the delivery car while bringing more product to the point of delivery.

Point: Clone characters are completely unnecessary. They bring nothing new to the table, and are not worth the time it takes to make them, regardless of how much time it takes.

Counterpoint: This is an opinion. However, it is a widely-shared opinion, so I must consider it.
Clone characters do bring new elements to the table. Aside from expanding the roster and pleasing more fans, clone characters open up practical options as well as aesthetic. Ganondorf's style of play was completely different from Falcon's, for example. There are players that prefer Dr. Mario to Mario, Young Link to Link, and ect.

Conclusion: Clone characters take a minimum amount of time and effort to create, while delivering more content to the fans. They do not 'take up a slot', as 'slots' are based completely on how much effort Sakurai has to put into making that character.

Sorry if any part of this is confusing, I'm in a bit of a rush. If so, I'll edit this later. Bye.

 

[EDreams]

That there are people who prefer Young Link to Link doesn't prove anything. There's obviously a much more drastic and more immediately entertaining difference between, say, Marth and Kirby.

Wouldn't you prefer the playstyle of characters to be unrecognizable from others, not similar?

 

[Genesai]

You made some very good arguments and if it really were to be as quick as you say, I can see it working.
Only one problem, and this is just my opinion...making a clone character is sort of an insult to the character itself. Then again...so are AT's but meh.

 

[gigasteve]

I agree. Plus there are noticeable differences, such as Falco's Dair, which is one of the reasons I prefer him over Fox.

 

[Got Blood?]

If having clone characters would at all sacrifice any totally new character, then I say count them out. Why not just give them new movesets and include them in the game.Do we really need more pichus?

 

[Viral]

Yeah I personally don't really care about clones. I've said it before in another clone thread but it'd really be a shame for someone to miss out on their favourite character (Falco, Ganondorf etc) because they would have just been a clone.

I'd obviously prefer it if every character had their own unique moveset but i'd take a clone over nothing.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I say that they spend AS MUCH time as possible making original characters. But if they know that they have no more time for anything but clones, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing another one of my favorite characters in the game. Or say, put all of the Melee clones back in to please the users of such.

 

[Big-Cat]

I love the big pot, little pot analogy. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Santini]

I don't know why people get so passionate about clones. If you think about it, clones are the result of only two scenarios.

1. Clones were planned from the beginning because the developers got lazy. They take up roster spots that could have gone to an original character. Therefore, clones are bad.

2. Clones were last minute additions that the developers didn't have to put in. They aren't taking up roster spots and these characters would have not been playable anyway. (ex. Either Falco was a clone, or Falco wasn't in at all). Therefore, since they aren't taking away anything, clones are good.

So it really comes down to which scenario happens to determine if clones are a good thing or a bad thng. And, at least for Melee, I think the 2nd scenario is closer to what happened.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I think clones are a brilliant idea. I LOVE having new takes on familiar movesets, especially when they play so differently, as in the case of Fox/Falco and Ganon/C.Falcon.

 

[burrito]

I don't have anything against clones, but I get the feeling that we wont be getting any this time around. I think Sakurai wants to put all of his time and work into making characters as varied and complete as possible. I don't think we will see any last minute addition characters, such as Gannondorf was in melee.

 

[Yosher]

Of course clones don't take up slots, but it's still good if you can get to try out a completely new and original moveset, instead of someone else's moves but with different physics. I'd much rather have Ganondorf do original things, maybe with his sword, than to act like a wanabe-Falcon. Of course, if there's not enough time to make original movesets but there IS enough time to make a clone, then I don't mind at all.

 

[Pulse]

If you think about it, there will likely be no clones in brawl, or at least current ones. Sakurai DID state the "Some characters from Melee may disappear" and since clones (especially near indentical ones like Doc, Pichu, and Roy) are pretty high up on the ax list, I doubt their return.

 

[GamenerdAdvance]

To those who don't like clones, consider this --

The Studio has (for the sake of this post) created 40 unique characters. There isn't enough time to create any more full-fledged characters, so the team can either spend their remaining time tweaking existing characters, or adding 5 or so clones (decent clones, mind you. Clones that are quite different to their parent character, like Falcon/Ganondorf). So which do you prefer? 40 characters, or 45 characters with some of them being clones?

 

[EDreams]

So you mean luigified clones?

I think 5 of them is pushing it, personally >_> I'd only want relatively rational ones like Ness/Lucas and Mario/Luigi, not completely nonsensical ones like Falcon/Ganondorf. And even the rational ones can only go so far in my eyes.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I'm fine with clones and I agree with the TC.

Falco and Fox were both great characters.

I play as Peach in Melee, and I've always told myself I wouldn't mind taking away some of Peach's recovery for some more power (Dasiy).

I'd rather have 35 characters and 5 clones then just 36 characters.

Fox and Falco are very different. Gannon and Falcon are very different. Young Link and Link have a lot of differences. People make clones seem like that are just costumes but they aren't so once again I agree with the TC.

 

[bballstar23]

I really didn't mind clones too much in Melee, as long as I liked the character themselves. This was probably because there were clones in other fighting games, that it didn't shock me that there were clones in Melee. However, with the introduction of the Assist Trophy, I doubt that there will be clones, and if there are, they will be a very small minority. This is because if Sakurai and his team can't think of an entire moveset, he could just give the character one distinctive move and turn them into an Assist Trophy. That way, the character is still represented, but not as a clone.

 

[Ianthraxx]

I don't think it's very common for game developers to have tons of extra time on their hands. They usually have to sacrifice parts of the initial vision just to ship the game on time.

So I'm pretty sure clones are a result of Sakurai running out of time, not him having an excess of it. I think in this case, I wouldn't mind clones. It's not like they'd be stealing slots from other characters -- it'd either be the roster padded with clones, or... the roster without them. Why not get a few extras in there?

...but that's just being rational. Who REALLY wants Ganondorf to control like Captain Falcon?
And who really wants more than half of the unlockable characters to have stale movesets?
Yeah. It's not satisfying.

Clones are bad. XD

 

[master_link12]

Being a falco user myself I say keep some clones that actually are worth the while playing like falco and ganon but take out clones like say pichu

 

[Eaode]

I completely agree with the OP. People have some wierd conception that clones are the same as original characters in effort. And although it would be ideal for all clones to have original movesets, there simply isn't enough time. Let's say we hav around 35 characters. Now would you want them to bring in say 1 new original character, or 5 clones? Clones add a new way to use the same moveset, and they give fans of secondary charactrs satisfaction.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Hmm. Luigified clones? To fill up extra space after the fact? Hmm..but.. isn't that why Sakurai made the Assist Trophies, for those who aren't quite worthy enough to have their own movesets? Well... or if you want to look at it a different way.. The clones could be the demonstration of how differently someone can play with the same moves that have different properties to them. Fox vs Falco I think is a good example of this. As far as Ness goes, he shouldn't really be feared of getting the axe or cloned, I mean, his regular atttacks are apparently very different from Lucas' and they could just give him his own special moves from the game he starred in, rather than borrowing from Paula.

 

[oxyborb]

Let me explain this to you kids,

Smash Development Cycle
Stage 1. Planning movesets comes before coding and modeling.

Stage 2. Then, models are designed, and priliminary work on the code is completed.

Stage 3. Then, the model's code map is plugged into the basic code design.

Stage 4. Code is then finalized and tested.

Well, oh crap, how can we expand the character roster till the very last minute? (...I know characters are the biggest selling point...)

I've got it!

Stage 5. Edit model of another character and reattach to code taken from.

Stage 6. Edit a few basic stats and test code.

That is why clones exist. They can expand the character roster dramatically during the final phases of development. It takes little work because you're simply editing models and tweaking a few stats. Boom.

And that, children, is how the Grinch finally stole Christmas.

 

[matthewmilad]

...

"I'm always seeing people beaten over the head with the 'clones are bad' stick"

Dude... there's no need to argue. All competent and pro players will agree with you.
The "clones are bad" argument started from nubs, and still continues with nubs, I think mostly because of Ganon/Falcon.
But you have to realize that these people have no idea what they are talking about when they say that Falco and Fox are the exact same character, and even worse when they go to Mario and Luigi being the exact same character.
They are the nubs, which sadly will be the majority of the people who play the game.
They're also most of the people that want garbage like Ridley and Sukapon and Takamaru and random b.s. to be in Brawl, but for some reason despise Waluigi.
Waluigi is teh pwn, and I am pissed that he's not playable. My **** Smash name is WaluigiKing for gosh sakes, this blows. But enough ranting, you should get my point.
Oh, and realize they are also the reason our game has been slowed down, and wavedashing and regular L-cancel have been removed.
Stupid nubs.

 

[blooagga]

Let me explain this to you kids,

Smash Development Cycle
Stage 1. Planning movesets comes before coding and modeling.

Stage 2. Then, models are designed, and priliminary work on the code is completed.

Stage 3. Then, the model's code map is plugged into the basic code design.

Stage 4. Code is then finalized and tested.

Well, oh crap, how can we expand the character roster till the very last minute? (...I know characters are the biggest selling point...)

I've got it!

Stage 5. Edit model of another character and reattach to code taken from.

Stage 6. Edit a few basic stats and test code.

That is why clones exist. They can expand the character roster dramatically during the final phases of development. It takes little work because you're simply editing models and tweaking a few stats. Boom.

And that, children, is how the Grinch finally stole Christmas.

/applause
10charcoals

 

[EDreams]

The "clones are bad" argument started from nubs, and still continues with nubs, I think mostly because of Ganon/Falcon.

They are the nubs, which sadly will be the majority of the people who play the game.

They're also most of the people that want garbage like Ridley and Sukapon and Takamaru and random b.s. to be in Brawl, but for some reason despise Waluigi.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

I think this is the time to ask the all important question WWSD? (What would Sakurai do)

For melee, he had time constraints. Wholly unadulterated time constraints. With time constraints comes restrictions, and from restrictions, clones.

For Brawl, he has time. Wholly unadulterated time. With time comes freedom, and from freedom, new characters.

Ask not what you can do for Sakurai, but what Saukarai can do for you.

Regardless, WW link for brawl!

 

[jimmyjoe]

So you mean luigified clones?

I think 5 of them is pushing it, personally >_> I'd only want relatively rational ones like Ness/Lucas and Mario/Luigi, not completely nonsensical ones like Falcon/Ganondorf. And even the rational ones can only go so far in my eyes.

Characters like Mario/luigi, ness/lucas, and fox/falco are all similar character models and are from the same world as their counterpart, so they should have a somewhat similar fighting style or moveset. Falcon and Ganondorph shouldn't for obvious resons.

 

[Banjodorf]

To those who don't like clones, consider this --

The Studio has (for the sake of this post) created 40 unique characters. There isn't enough time to create any more full-fledged characters, so the team can either spend their remaining time tweaking existing characters, or adding 5 or so clones (decent clones, mind you. Clones that are quite different to their parent character, like Falcon/Ganondorf). So which do you prefer? 40 characters, or 45 characters with some of them being clones?

I'd honestly prefer just the 40 unique characters. I disliked Roy, Pichu and Y. Link just when I looked at them, because i felt they were not that different from the originals, and werent very asthetically pleasing to me.

Doc is the same way, I just liked him asthetically, but he should still get the axe.

Gannondorf is a speacial case, as he would have bee if own character time-permitting.

This time around, Im sure ehll hae a unique moveset. Flaco too if he gets in, although recently Falco has become my best character, I'd still prefer him to have a different moveset than Fox.

Also people, consider this. THe reason I dont think clones will get in, is Final Smashes. Final smashes are unique to each character, and giving a character all of the moves of another character, and a different final smash...is ludicrous.

Either Sakurai will go back on the "FSs are unique to each character thing" (Which he wont) or clones are out because they wont have all the same-style moves.

 

[Mr1337]

I was going to start a topic like this but I wasn't trying to get flamed.

I think clones add more variety to the game then they take away. No game developer is saying to himself "Well instead of making a Ridley code I think I'll just make a Wuluigi clone from Wario's code" If that were the case I would completely agree with the 'clones sux' argument.
I'm a Doc player, but this isn't me building a case to have Doc in Brawl. The reason I play Doc is while I really love how Mario plays, and enjoy how beautifully average he is, I hate fireballs. Doc gives me the chance to play with the same style but slightly different moves.

It's a little bit like street fighter or tekken to me, you have lots of different characters but a lot of them are in "families". How many people really complain about Ryu, Ken, and Akuma all being pretty much the same guy with different haircuts.

I even don't have much of a problem with Ganon being a clone of Falcon. Personally I think thats really creative way to put him in the game at the last minute.

No case can be made for Pichu though. What a bunch of crap that was.