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Choosing a counterpick stage

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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This is my probably overly complex theory on how to choose a counterpick stage, not just based on the opponent's character, but their experience, your own experience and Lucas's own strengths and weaknesses.

The factors you should consider in choosing a counterpick are as follows and in order of importance,

1. How well do I know the stage?
2. What factors of the stage can I exploit to help my character?
3. What factors of the stage can my opponent exploit to help his character?
4. How well does my opponent know the stage?

1. How well do I know the stage?

Just because people say a stage is a good counterpick for your character doesn't mean it will be for you. If you rarely play on a stage, don't assume it will work for you. In order for a stage to be a good counterpick for you, you have to know what you're doing. More importantly, you have to have a better understanding of what you're doing than the opponent does. If you don't, you may find yourself losing stocks pointlessly to suicides and/or giving your opponent an unnecesary advantage. If you can't find a counterpick that you are truly comfortable with, you are much better off sticking with a neutral stage that you've played a lot on and will feel confident on. This will give you more of a psychological advantage as well. The last thing you want to be in a competitive environment is uncomfortable. This is the most important thing to consider when you are choosing a counterpick stage in a tournament or money match.

2. What factors of the stage can I exploit to help my character?
I'll talk about just Lucas for this section. The things that tend to help Lucas the most in counterpick stages are,

1. Additional recovery options
2. Destructible terrain
3. Close blastzones
4. Spacing

1. Lucas has a very gimpable recovery, so any additional options will help you out a lot. This includes platfroms near the edge for PKT2 lag cancels such as on Brinstar, multiple ledges such as on Norfair, and fall through terrain that you can shoot through with PKT2 such as on Halberd. These will all aid you in making it back to the stage without getting punished and should definetly be considered when choosing a CP. Some of the best stages for Lucas's recovery are,

Brinstar
Norfair
Delfino
Smashville
Pirate Ship
Rainbow Cruise

2. Destructible terrain can be a great help because it makes Lucas's Usmash and Dsmash last forever which is great for punishing overly aggressive players and even pressuring on some stages. It also makes PKT2 last longer which may help you recover safer. Keep in mind however that these will slow down your Nair which can make you extremely vulnerable. Also keep in mind that some characters have more to gain from this than you do. Destructible terrain is most useful on,

Brinstar
Luigi's Mansion
Castle Siege
Green Greens
Sky World

3. Lucas is very adept at killing at low percentages when there are close blastzones. This is because Nair has decent knockback even at very low percentages and changes relatively little with percentage differentiation. His strong smash attacks help with this as well. Stages with close blastzones which can help you a lot include,

Brinstar
Corneria
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise
Onett
Green Greens

4. Some stages just space well for Lucas. This includes being able to slide on sloped terrain as well as simply the distance of the platforms from the ground. For instance, Lucas can full hop and will immediately land on Smashville's platform rather than jumping over it and having to fall onto it. I call this a perfect landing and it can speed up your game a lot. This also includes stages that work well with thundersliding and PK Fire. Stages with generally good spacing for Lucas include,

Brinstar
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Final Destination
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 1
Pictochat
Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Luigi's Mansion

What factors of the stage can my opponent exploit to help his character?

You need to know your matchups plain and simple. Game and Watch can take great advantage of Luigi's Mansion because of the destructible terrain and spacing. Dedede, ROB, Fox and several others have infinites against walls such as that on Corneria. Metaknight can use the numerous ledges on Norfair to move quickly and safely around the stage, putting you in harm's way in the process. You have to know what characters like which stages.

How well does my opponent know this stage?

Some counterpicks are often chosen and players tend to have a lot of experience on them. Others are very rarely chosen, most often for annoying elements in them. If you know a stage better than your opponent, you will naturally have the upper hand psychologically if nothing else. This is a great reason for learning some of the lesser used and less liked stages such as Brinstar, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2, Pictochat etc. You never know when you might need them to counterpick or even when you might get counterpicked with them.


Now with all this said and done, there are a few counterpick stages that I believe to be extremely beneficial for Lucas over others. I will not include neutrals in this list since they're pretty much good for everyone.

Brinstar - Brinstar is amazing for Lucas. Easier recovery, close blastzones, great for spacing with perfect landings on both side platforms as well as an easy thunderslide edgecancel from the top platfrom to the left platform, destructible terrain to help PKT2 as well as Usmash and Dsmash and PK Fire, and almost most importantly, almost no one knows how to play on it. Destructible terrain in the center can cause SD's on Game and Watch if he Dairs into it and Metaknight if he tornados through it.

Norfair - Norfair is good for Lucas because it encourages aerial combat in which Lucas can easily get above the opponent. Great for Dairs and PK Fire. Multiple recovery spots. Don't CP Norfair against Metaknight or Snake EVER.

Corneria - You can heal yourself on lasers and easily make it back to the stage. Also blastzones are very close for very easy kills. Just don't get caught in an infinite against the well. Dsmash on the top of the fin gets kills too easily. PKT1 spamming works.

Luigi's Mansion - Destructible terrain is great. Recovering can be tricky for you. NEVER CP Luigi's Mansion against Game and Watch or Metaknight.

Pirate Ship - Really quirky stage. The bombs will kill you stupidly early so be careful. Don't get caught in the water and get spiked. Spam PKT1 for edgeguarding when they're in the water and ledgewhip on the left side especially. Easy to recover on as long as you don't get spiked.

Green Greens - If it's not banned this stage can be good. Thundersliding is great here. Dsmashes can last long, just don't blow yourself up. Anyone can die off the sides at stupidly low percentage so make use of your Nair.

Yoshi's Island (Melee) - Another stage you can get really early kills on. Just watch out for the chaingrab walk off on the right. Dsmash on the left side will get easy kills. You can cancel your smash attacks on the destructible blocks for flash and safe Usmashes.


Those are just some of my personal favourites. Remember the most important factor in choosing your counterpick. CHOOSE THE STAGE THAT YOU ARE MOST COMFORTABLE WITH. Mess around. Play friendlies only on CP's. It's fun. It'll get you used to stages you might not normally ever play on.
 

~Pink Fresh~

Smash Master
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i'm a little confused on why you shouldn't ever CP norfair against snake
no mortar slide
no stage control
alot of aerial game which snake lacks
not really easy to camp due to multiple platforms.

so why shouldn't we CP norfair against snake.

oh and corneria is G&W best stage.
avoid it like the plague if you run into a G&W
 

_Void_

Smash Cadet
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Nov 17, 2008
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Distant Planet is fun because of that super campy ledge and easy bthrow kills on the left side. Craq Walking into ftilts is also fun as hell on that slope. Those items are also quite nice because only few players really have experience with item play (that mostly includes characters like ZSS, Diddy and Wario because they can create some theirselves) and Lucas has a nice Item Zap which can theoretically be used for aerial chasing because it has no lag ;D I like that stage.

On Yoshi's Island (Melee) you can also utilize the walkoff-side for your aerial game quite nicely. Lucas' vertical air speed while jumping combined with his horizontal air speed let him jump at EXACTLY the same angle the walkoff-part has. That means you can practically slide up the hill while doing an aerial and look like you are not even leaving the ground. Really cool for nair-kills because you can drag them up with you for quite a distance and the nair's good knockback easily kills with that close blastzone.
Just remember to always Zap Jump out of the gap in the middle if your opponent somehow manages to trap you in there...
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Although Norfair does not allow mortar sliding to hurt you much, it gives Snake several advantages. Snake actually gets plenty of stage control here because he can cut out two platforms at once with a properly placed C4. Grenades will do this as well. Snake's recovery is greatly aided by the stage since he has multiple ledges to grab onto. And most importantly, Norfair gives him a very painful techchase with his Dthrow which will kill you. The platforms make it easy for Snake to techchase grabs until he decides to Ftilt or Utilt you to death. Although it is true that Norfair encourages aerial combat, all Snake has to do is camp until he forces you to approach. Note that his Utilt will cut through Lucas's Dair eliminating that approach entirely. Basically as long as he has a C4 in the right place and is decent at grenade spamming, he can wait for you to approach and punish the **** out of you. Even if you do get him in the air for a combo, he has multiple safe places to land because of the edges so he can escape easier than he can on many other stages.

Snake is my secondary.
 

_Void_

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Add to that how the lava "walls" often force you to stay on one side of the field - and if the Snake was lucky enough to plant his C4/mine there you might be in a world of pain before you realize what happened...
Properly spaced C4+mine-combo eliminates 3 platforms btw and Snake's utilt, nades and usmash easily take care of the remaining two.
Pick Brinstar, it rocks =P

EDIT: By C4+mine-combo I mean planting your mine on a "2nd layer" platform and your C4 on the left/right side of the middle platform. That way you can detonate your C4 which also covers the platform above it, detonating the mine, damaging any opponent on the top platform above that. Snake may just stay on the other "2nd layer" platform and harrass you with his stupid stage control options.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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i've never actually played a snake on norfair, so i'm just trying to learn a few things before i decide to CP there and get thrashed.


pk fire the mines. knew about the tech chase already. grenades are easy to avoid. shield/airdodge/spotdodge/grabbing an edge/grab and throw them somewhere will take care of those. with that his control is pretty much gone he only has one/two platform(s) covered. are you sure norfair doesn't work?
 

Veril

Frame Savant
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Jun 20, 2008
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Distant Planet is fun because of that super campy ledge and easy bthrow kills on the left side. Craq Walking into ftilts is also fun as hell on that slope. Those items are also quite nice because only few players really have experience with item play (that mostly includes characters like ZSS, Diddy and Wario because they can create some theirselves) and Lucas has a nice Item Zap which can theoretically be used for aerial chasing because it has no lag ;D I like that stage.
Almost no players have item experience. Lucas is the only player who can item zapjump. A shame he doesn't have a good glide-toss.

Also, I was looking at the Player's guide and saw that video with the "recovery surprise" and the surrounding discussion. Well, I'm almost certain that item throws are the fastest way to get out of hitstun. So, if you throw an item towards the stage, wavezap facing the stage, b-reverse the wavezap and magnet pull... I'm probably the only person who even would try something like that.

Whatever, I think its the most effective (if not the easiest) horizontal knockback reduction method since it increases the speed of the jump itself.

Distant Planet is one of my favorites.

Good thread...
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Norfair is most dangerous against Snake because he can force you to only approach him from above, from which point you have zero options against his Utilt. C4's are deadly and a good Snake is going to know how to grenade spam you so that they are not easy to avoid. Not to mention the multiple edges make it very difficult for you to kill Snake. Remember he's a heavy weight.

Against Snake I would opt for Brinstar almost every time if you can. Bair spikes are really easy here and he can't use the platforms against you very well. Pirate Ship is another one that Snake can't control as well in general. He's also helpless once he's in the water and you can get easy spikes.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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ahhh now i understand why norfair is not so great of an option. well at least for lucas.
i always go brinstar against snake anyway. i should start to go to pirate ship but, i need to learn the stage a little better before i try that.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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This is what Havokk from the Snake boards has to say about Norfair, Brinstar and Pirate Ship

"Norfair = Stage Control HEAVEN. We can place a Mine on the bottom platform, a C4 on another platform, then camp on the far most platform while chucking grenades at you. And theres almost nothing you can do unless your a character like Pit/Fox/Falco

Norfair = Stage control paradise, lava saves us from being spiked, VERY VERY easy top KO's with utilt and c4 due to low ceiling. Ftilt KO's at very low %'s as well.

Snake's playground basically.


Brinstar = Personally I hate this stage :/ the lava can save us from spikes, or recovery saves us otherwise, we KO early off the sides, and decent off the top. But you really have to get used to this stage to play it well. Again, platforms = stage control for us. It's also really hard to camp vs us here.

Pirate Ship = Screw this stage. When we get in the water, we're done for. It's average KO's from the side, decent KO's from top, nowhere we can camp, we have mediocre stage control."
 

~Pink Fresh~

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,180
Location
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This is what Havokk from the Snake boards has to say about Norfair, Brinstar and Pirate Ship

"Norfair = Stage Control HEAVEN. We can place a Mine on the bottom platform, a C4 on another platform, then camp on the far most platform while chucking grenades at you. And theres almost nothing you can do unless your a character like Pit/Fox/Falco

Norfair = Stage control paradise, lava saves us from being spiked, VERY VERY easy top KO's with utilt and c4 due to low ceiling. Ftilt KO's at very low %'s as well.

Snake's playground basically.


Brinstar = Personally I hate this stage :/ the lava can save us from spikes, or recovery saves us otherwise, we KO early off the sides, and decent off the top. But you really have to get used to this stage to play it well. Again, platforms = stage control for us. It's also really hard to camp vs us here.

Pirate Ship = Screw this stage. When we get in the water, we're done for. It's average KO's from the side, decent KO's from top, nowhere we can camp, we have mediocre stage control."
Zman needs to put this in his stage counterpick guide.
now that i think about it... where the hell is blackbelt and his update to the weekly character matchup???
 
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