Charizard Matchup Discussion - Rosalina & Luma

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#2

"Know the enemy, and know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." - Sun Tzu

This applies especially to Rosalina. She may be the single character in the game who is by far the hardest to fight against in general if you are not extremely familiar with the matchup against her, but once you learn the matchup, she becomes far more manageable.
 

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#3
I just...

Admittedly, my problems with Rosa are mostly mine. Literally every other character on the roster, I get...

I can fight against them.

No matter who I pick against Rosa, I flub....

What do?
 

Virum

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#4

"Know the enemy, and know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." - Sun Tzu

This applies especially to Rosalina. She may be the single character in the game who is by far the hardest to fight against in general if you are not extremely familiar with the matchup against her, but once you learn the matchup, she becomes far more manageable.
Tbh in this instance that Rosa really wasn't very good at all. There were so many things they were doing fundamentally wrong in their play. The lack of spaced short hop NAirs, the complete lack of brick walling with jab (Rosaluma's jab is busted but this person barely used it at all), excessive use of dash attack to approach etc. That Rosa had a good number of bad, abusable habits too. I don't necessarily disagree with the fact that she becomes a lot more manageable once you know what you're doing (though the same can be said about any character) but I don't necessarily feel this was the best example to demonstrate this.

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Though to the point, with regards to fighting Rosalina regardless of who you're playing as your priority is to get rid of that Luma. DTilt is capable of knocking Luma away at 0% due to its high base knockback, although it has to be spaced either so that you're at max spacing from Rosa or you're as close to the Luma as possible so it his both her and the Luma. Jab 3 and Dash Attack are also capable of this however they both leave you unsafe if Rosa shields them. Spaced FAir and Flamethrower are also excellent ways of whittling the Luma down steadily. Rosa's defensive game as a whole is pretty much unrivalled so you have be pristine with how you space and attempt to apply pressure in neutral otherwise she's punishing you. Even things that seem decently spaced at first can sometimes be punished by her dash attack for instance due to how much ground it covers.

Once you get rid of the Luma the dynamic changes and Rosa will absolutely assume the defensive. As a result it seems tempting to try to go ham and one must never be too reckless. Remain patient and vigilant and try to force mistakes and punish. Her kit becomes significantly less safe and less threatening without the Luma.

One of Rosa's most notable weaknesses as a whole is her lack of a good landing option. Despite her fantastic air mobility, lack of a fast aerial that hits at a decent point below her combined with her size and floatiness makes her susceptible to landing traps. Don't try to chase her in the air, but rather shadow under her using Zard's great walk and try to catch whatever she does to try to land.

What can make this match-up a struggle is when Zard is punished and forced into the air. As I mentioned before if you aren't meticulous with your spacing she will punish you and force you into the air and since Zard isn't particularly good at landing and Rosa is amazing at juggling because her UAir is busted, it becomes difficult to land vs this character. Well timed air dodges, Rock Smashes and a Flare Blitz here or there can help out though, just be weary of becoming too predictable with your landing options.

Make sure to try to hold onto your stock for as long as possible as imo this is one of those match-ups where abusing rage is instrumental to Zard's success. A max rage fresh UThrow will be killing Rosalina at as low as around 80-90% on FD, even lower on platform stages due to how incredibly light she is (on the top platform of Dreamland it can kill at around 60%). Double jab to grab and double jab to Fly also work wonders vs Rosa again due to lack of a fast aerial and her floatiness and both of these options can kill her early.

Other things to be mindful of are her NAir and jab. NAir has 3 separate hits (Luma, Rosa, Luma) and it's very easy to get hit by it because you dropped shield too early, so don't drop shield until you've shielded the third hit. Alternative use Fly out of shield to power through the move after the Luma hits your shield the first time allowing you to power through the follow up hits, though this is a heavy commitment because if it whiffs you're suffering particularly if you don't land on a platform. Rosa's jab is her bread and butter and it's absolutely absurd. It's exceptionally safe, can kill at high percents and probably most annoyingly the Luma rapid jab forces clank vs moves that deal anything below 9.2%. This means DTilt, sweetspot FTilt and FAir can all beat it thankfully but it's absolutely something you should always be careful of as it's probably the best jab in the game overall.

Sometimes it can be difficult to evaluate on this match-up overall as it isn't one too commonly seen. Often vs Rosalina if characters play meticulously enough such that Rosa can't punish them it's very doable however as a whole this feels in Rosa's favour due to her overall command of the neutral and ability to lock Zard in the air.
 

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#5
The Rosalina sub-forum really doesn't have much to give to the Charizard users.

What I can give is that while Flare Blitz can be a Luma killer, it's only going to hurt Charizard when you take into account that Rosalina can fully shield the hit, and then punish Charizard right back. Basically, while Flare Blitz can leave Rosalina without a Luma, it's a poor more to use on Rosalina herself, since its damage penalty can make things worse for Charizard if it gets blocked. As such, Charizard should probably find some safer options for containing the Luma.

Of course, in a customs bout, Dragon Rush doesn't have the damage penalty, so Charizard can rely on it more for Luma containment. Just watch out for any counterattacks if Rosalina shields all the Dragon Rush hits. And of course, Shooting Star Bit can't be ignored, since Charizard doesn't have a reflecting move.

Last up is recovery, since Charizard's recovery is heavily flawed by weak air speed that's made even weaker while it's helpless. To add to this, if Charizard uses Flare Blitz for recovery, the Luma can actually get in Charizard's way, especially if Rosalina has Luma Warp.

This is probably a match-up where Charizard should have Dragon Rush instead of Flare Blitz, but during the moments where Rosalina is lacking her Luma, Charizard can potentially capitalize if it doesn't make any foolish attack choices.
 
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#6
There is only one fighter I find more difficult to fight in general, and that's Sonic. I can offer only very little advice...first of all: kill the Luma, this matters more for Charizard and other heavies than anyone else. You can be zoned, combo'd, setup, and out prioritized by Luma, you have to destroy it at all costs. This matchup is rather nasty as you want to play defensive because Rosalina's frame data is better than yours, but you can't because her defensive game is the best in the game, so you have to approach, so you'll be using your jab and autocancelled aerials more than you normally would because you won't usually be hard punishing if you're getting in a hit.
 
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Leety

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#7
I know quite a lot about this MU and can probably give some very insightful advice to play against Rosa. As soon as I stop procrastinating on everything, I'll do my best to make a post that I hope you'll find helpful.
 

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#8
I know quite a lot about this MU and can probably give some very insightful advice to play against Rosa. As soon as I stop procrastinating on everything, I'll do my best to make a post that I hope you'll find helpful.
Well bro? :p


Either way, I have two main problems with Rosalina...

  1. Landing.... I've never had to try this hard to land...
  2. Getting off the ledge, the ledge is safe but Rosalina and Luma can just space their jab correctly and I become trapped. Can't jump, can't attack, can't roll. Only thing that is remotely possible is Rock Smashing through Luma but then Rosa just gets me.

What do I do?
 

Leety

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#9
Well bro? :p


Either way, I have two main problems with Rosalina...

  1. Landing.... I've never had to try this hard to land...
  2. Getting off the ledge, the ledge is safe but Rosalina and Luma can just space their jab correctly and I become trapped. Can't jump, can't attack, can't roll. Only thing that is remotely possible is Rock Smashing through Luma but then Rosa just gets me.

What do I do?
I do apologize, this is something that's a bit of a challenge to put what I want to say into words. Mainly due to how things to get a little touchy while discussing Rosa xD

However just to answer this particular problem for now. As I was going to mention, when Rosa does have stage control (When Zard is in the air or trying to recover) it's probably the largest 'uphill' part that we're going to have to go through. It's not exactly a Zard exclusive, most characters can have difficulty landing and recovery in the face of a good Rosa player

In the case of being juggled by U-air strings is rather standard to get out of. Zard does have minimal options to get out of it, but try to make the most of what he does have, two jumps and the use of air dodges. Take advantage of human behavior to predict when Rosa will use this move and act accordingly. When I say human behavior, if you're at kill percent, the Rosa might be thinking of trying to finish you off in which case they'll immediately go for the U-air. If you're at low the Rosa might try to bait the air dodge and continue her momentum. If you're able to air dodge with the correct prediction then you should be able to fast fall and safely land due to Rosa's floatiness.

In all of this, it's important to note that Rosa doesn't have a lot of air mobility, despite how powerful her air moves are. She's actually quite committed the moment she's in the air.

In the case that Rosa is waiting on the stage to reset the juggle, Rock Smash is going to be your friend and it's going to most likely end up in a rock-paper-scissors situation. You can use Rock Smash to easily challenge her U-smash if that's what you're anticipating. You could air dodge to either avoid U-smash or possibly whiff a grab. Or you could empty land and retreat if she's shielding. Whatever you go for though, you should concentrate on just getting back on you're two feet more then anything.


On the ledge. I'm going to assume you're talking about jab version 2 since that's what Rosaluma tended to do a while back. I personally don't use it much anymore since I view it as 'old technology' that's just a bit too predictable and I'm more for mixing up my ledge guards as a Rosa player. Especially since most players seemed to figure out how to deal with this. It's still good against characters with bad rolls like Donkey Kong, but Zard always felt tougher to do this to fighting some of the better Zards from the Smashboards. However, the trick with any character is just to put Luma into a little bit of lag then get themselves back up quickly before the state of 'no invisibility' takes it's toll. I don't see why a spaced F-air wouldn't be able to do the trick. Comes out quick, good knockback, and should hit luma hard enough to get it out of the picture and secure a get up option as Rosa is still waving her wand around. If jab 2 isn't what you're talking about, let me know.

But otherwise, good luck in that position. I'll be sure to write down more Charizard related specifics in the next post. (Just let me take my time xD) I should leave as a note, the MU as a whole is not nearly as bad as you might think, just this particular situation.
 

Leety

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#10
Alright, I'm here, gonna try to explain this best I can. I tried to get the opinion of other Charizard players, use my Rosa against them, and get an overall feel of how the pros and cons work out how this match up works.

The unfortunate is that Rosa has some amazing representation in the competitive scene. Charizard on the other hand is still a bit on the unrepresent. As Silentdoom has already mentioned it's really difficult to know how the matchup would work at high-top level play and the most I can get is what happens on my level (and what I will assume most people who use Smashboards are on)

The fortunate is where Rosa tends to make a lot of fat characters struggle within the roster, Zard is probably one of Rosa's biggest challenges (no pun intended) This is mainly due to some tools Zard has that are oddly appropriate for dealing with Rosa

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What you should be thinking

How your mindset should be: Zard is strong, but don't let it go to your head. It's tempting to try and finish her off quickly due to how light she is, but you have to be patient or you'll find yourself at a disadvantage rather quickly.

How the match is going to be played: There are three things to know about Rosaluma that you should keep in mind which is the areas she struggles with. The obvious is that without Luma everything about her significantly drops. The less obvious is that her recovery is not really that great. But one of the most important things to remember and smaller details about Rosa MU is that Rosa is not really good at handling stage pressure. This being, the less room that Rosa has on the stage, the easier

Ideally, you want this to turn into a Sumo match where you try to push Rosa closer and closer to the edge of the stage and punish any attempt to relieve pressure. Don't concern yourself with how much damage your doing to Rosa, but rather how much space she currently has.

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Neutral

What you want to use during neutral is Flamethrower, Rock-smash, Auto cancel F-air and N-air, and jab 1 & 2. A lot of the moves not mentioned such as Zard's tilts can still be used. Try to use them sparingly though to simply remind her that you have those moves; but if she catches them whiffed she'll be able to punish you for it.

Flamethrower is amazing in this MU. I keep telling people, Rosa can shut down projectiles if she can react to them with gravitational pull but it's a different story if they're used at a shorter distance. In fact, you can condition Rosa into using gravitational pull which means a free punish if you 'act' like you're about to FT her. In the case that FT is GPed, then immediately let go of the special button in reaction when GP comes out. GP doesn't have enough lag to punish out of FT but it's possible to apply pressure with one or two Jabs (if she's in that proximity and you wished) But if not, just respect it. No need to fear, you're not committed enough out of FT for her to punish when GP is off.

Some Rosa players will choose not to use GP and simply shield flamethrower. If this is the case, then use it to keep her shield in constant check. The less shield she has available, the more danger Luma is in from pressure. Otherwise flamethrower will almost always be considered a good option if you catch, well, almost anything on whiff for free damage on both her and Luma which is great. But despite how useful flamethrower is, don't get too predictable with it just like every character would. She'll use an aerial option or cross you up and get a free punish which you'll regret your decisions that moment you loose stage control.

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Mix-ups

So what's the answer to keeping you're flamethrower both fresh and unpredictable? Apply pressure with lagless, or moves with very little lag. Play the match in Rosa's face, but keep reserved and away from her tilt range until you gain an advantage. Mix up what you use, and when you use them. Short hop F-air is pretty helpful. In some cases where you catch a whiffed jab, you can actually directly knock Luma out of the picture (You can also answer whiffed jabs with a tilt). If she see's you doing this too often though she'll challenge with U-smash which can easily launch you into the most unfavorable area. When you predict her doing that, go for a Rock Smash to challenge U-smash (Rock smash is the go to for any read smash Attack Rosa might use) When using F-air auto cancel for shield pressure mix up where you land to either space for a jab or get out of her tilt range.

She'll try to fortress herself with a mix of her tilts, she will win the spacing game due to her frame data being much better then Zard so try to avoid her tilting range.

Mix up your movement patterns and keep close for each time you apply more shield pressure to her, the more she's going to have to give up her space placing her to more stage pressure.

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She's pinned! Now what?

In order to relieve the stage pressure you create, she's most likely to do two things that are unsafe. During the match, analyse her behavior, read, and act accordingly. Standard roll cross up, punish with however you enjoy punishing a roll. Something you've been training on in For Glory right? No different when facing Rosa :) (I would personally grab her and throw her off the stage) The other option she'll use to try and reset neutral is short hop N-air. She can use other methods but most are foolish. If she reacts to your approaches with N-air, then shield the first hit (Luma hit,) and if she decides to try and fly over you, OOS U-smash (there you go, free U-Smash and Zard is a pretty good juggler, Rosa is pretty floaty as well) You can even go for OOS fly if you want.

During this state, you'll also be able to get her off the stage at times. Her recovery is OK, but it's not really that good. Rosa will use a mix up of it to either lock herself back on the stage's ledge or try to send herself to land near the other side of the stage. Perfect for Zard to capitalize on, it's got no hurtboxes so take advantage of this situation here. Practice Zard's offstage game, it's very suited and will benefit you while fighting Rosa.

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She's fighting back! Well of course she is.

She's probably going to do what she does best and her best option is a utilization of her tilts and combos to pop Zard into the air as much as she can. Pay attention to her behavior and avoid the situations she can place you in. Every Rosa plays differently as she is a rather versatile character. I can't tell you what the intentions are going to be and it's up to you to find some players to practice with so you can get familiar with her options. Just don't go into autopilot and keep a close eye on her behaviors, Zard does have an answer to most of what Rosa can do. But you can't simply react, you gotta work towards the Rosa's behavior.

And please, don't get sandwiched by Luma during Neutral, and especially don't jump into the sandwich. Very bad things happen in there. I hate it when people jump into my sandwich because I feel kind of bad since they don't know how to fight Rosa. If Rosa is desynced and pressuring you with Luma from a range. Judge the range and don't make a commitment that will cause Rosa to go in and punish, usually, you'll find yourself flamethrowering Luma. But depending how far Rosa is, you can use something like a rock smash, depending on the situation.

Just always keep in mind, the more space she gets, the more options she gets. You keep that in mind the more you can judge and respect the disadvantage your at

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Wait, who controls the pace?

The short answer, neither of them. With the amount of time I placed into both these characters, I will easily say that reckless behaviors are going to cost them severely in the long run. They both have to play patiently and defensively until they recognize when they're at advantage and go for bigger commitments. But in the chance you get one of those types of Rosa players who would play recklessly into you then why not? She's asking for it.

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Conclusion

These are both primarily defense characters. Rosa has the same advantage she does with most heavies having better frame data, tools, and being able to pressure them from a range in which they have no answer to. However, Zard has something that many heavies lack, mid-range pressure that's not connected to his hip, juggle capabilities and an existent offstage game. To make the point clear, let's make a comparison with DK. What's he going to do to Rosa? Rosa keeps him pressured with no need to approach, DK needs to use something that's going to be unsafe, then Rosa punishes and places DK into an unsafe position.

Zard will still be juggled like the other heavies as well as have trouble recovering if he makes a mistake, but he will be able to fight back if he's on his two feet. The MU is going to go down to who can keep the stage control and who is making the smarter decisions during neutral.

:4charizard:50:50:rosalina: If anything else, very slightly advantaged in Rosa's favor.

Be sure to practice against a verity of us Rosa mains to see what we do and lab your options. The more Rosaluma mains you fight, the more you learn this MU and the less you gotta worry about ;)

I'll be sure to leave some additional notes about the character later. Just a couple of minor, yet important details of Rosaluma's properties which is pretty good knowledge of having. But since this is about Zard against Rosa, I'll leave the post like this.
 
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