Charizard Matchup Discussion - Megaman

EvilPinkamina

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#2
Powershield the projectiles and megaman loses a lot of his power. Maybe run flare blitz if you have trouble with lemons, but the basic 1311/1313 should work just fine against Megaman. From what I've played, megaman has trouble killing you, but in the air it becomes slightly stalemate. Your fairs are about equal range but megaman's bair outranges your aerials, so try not to get behind him.

I've only played 2 or 3 games against a megaman in my lifetime, and all of those chances were on For Glory.
 

Greward

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#3
I think Mega has a solid advantage here.

Pellets and metal blade are a good tool for neutral, charizard's size makes him easy to hit with our stuff. His size and terrible air speed makes him vulnerable to up air which is Mega's best way to get damage in and sometimes kills.
While Charizard is fast in the ground, his approach options are pretty limited and have a long startup, Mega shouldn't have issues dealing with dash grab / dash attack / sh fair, nair or even run in jab.

It's relatively hard to kill Mega, you'll probably need the kill throw since he can evade most moves with long startups because of the pellet game.

While Mega has some issues killing, he can punish some of charizard's moves with uptilt since they are laggy, and more importantly he can gimp charizard relatively easy with Bair.

Mega can outrange charizard in the air with Fair / Bair, but I don't think he needs to do that.

Flare blitz beats Fsmash so we probably won't use that move (it's pretty bad anyways). If you flare blitz into pellets we will just jump over it.
 

Drarky

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#4
Zard vs Mega Man it's not a MU I see very often, but I know some of the most basic things.

First of all, Zard loses in the mid range fight because of lemons (even if you powershield all 3 of them you are not blocking a lot of damage or getting a huge window of punish) but in close combat, Zard's Jab is scary and fast. And that's pretty much the neutral, Mega Man doing his lemon stuff and Zard getting in, neither of them are on a difficult spot.

When it comes down to combos, I would say both share equal in their department (Combo out of DThrow, small juggles that are not really huge) but the Man has Air Shooter which can annoy Zard's huge model easily.

And then there is the killing part, which is, again, pretty even. Zard's got some SCARY moves like Flare Blitz, FSmash and the spike on his DAir, but Mega Man can punish any failed attempt with some of his scary moves like Mega Upper or a spike with Hard Knuckle, so it really comes down to who's the one to outsmart the other.

I would say Mega Man has an SLIGHT advantage because of him having a more decent recovery and not being so huge, but it is not enough to call the MU in anyone's favor. If you ask me: 50-50 seems the most likely way to be.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Zard has a better kill throw (And overall grab game) which leads to the MU to be even
 
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Poyo97
#6
I will say this.

It's nearly impossible to gimp Charizard. Charizard has downright amazing recovery.
:4charizard: has Super Armor on his UpB and SideB if I remember well. Crash Bomb and Item Tossed Metal Blades seem to stop Flareblitz through. I can't tell about his customs, but I'm ready to play anytime today (holidays=find stuff to do...). I'll do my best to let you learn about what the MU is like with customs.
 

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#7
:4charizard: has Super Armor on his UpB and SideB if I remember well. Crash Bomb and Item Tossed Metal Blades seem to stop Flareblitz through. I can't tell about his customs, but I'm ready to play anytime today (holidays=find stuff to do...). I'll do my best to let you learn about what the MU is like with customs.
Crash Bomb might stop flare blitz but I don't think blades do.

Regardless a good Zard recovers high with Blitz.
 
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#8
Crash Bomb might stop flare blitz but I don't think blades do.

Regardless a good Zard recovers high with Blitz.
I was thinking about onstage Flareblitzes, but I guess you are right about its usefulness for recoveries (althrough Dragon Rush is obviously better).
I tried :4charizard:'s customs, and it seems that every "2" custom is a close ranged kill move :0 (bar DownB n°2, it buries instead)
They are still pretty slow, through...
 

Greward

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#9
Yeah we can't contest Flare Blitz, ther pbut we can eiunish it when it ends or stop it with up air. No projectiles stop him unfortunately.
Actually Bair should beat Flare Blitz, but I'm not sure.

Worst position to be in this matchup is being above Mega, Up air is a superb move and it really eats big guys, specially the ones with crappy air speed like charizard.
Mega also loves to go into the air to do some Bairs, and Chari is an easy target if he is into the air.

Mega gets more out of a grab than charizard mainly because chari has some troubles to get back to neutral while Mega doesn't as much. Chari's up smash is annoying in this matchup because Mega loves to jump around the place so gotta respect that.

I think he gets walled easily by pellets / MB / CB / grabs, his frame data is slowish in the ground and his aerial approach is not very good. His big moves shouldn't get in against Mega since he usually evades moves with long startups easily because of his constant use of pellets.
 

Steeler

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#10
This is even at worst for Zard I think, MM wants to keep Zard away with lemons but not close enough for jab to threaten him. The problem is that Flamethrower outranges pellets and goes right through. If Mega starts going away from the pellet game a bit to deal with Flamethrower, it plays into how Zard would rather go about the matchup. If Mega wants to stay committed to pellets, Flamethrower does at least as much damage. MM doesn't really want to trade damage with a character as heavy and powerful as Zard.

Don't underestimate Zard jab in this matchup, it reaches insanely far for a jab and the combo does 12%, one of the most damaging in the game. This combined with Zard dash speed makes it a very strong tool in this matchup.
 

MintyBreeze

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#11
If we consider platform stages in this match-up, how much does it change? Some of Charizard's best moves are anti air.

(Would a Mega Man be willing to play with me on the 3DS so I can get a general idea of the fight?)
 
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#14
Sooorry for the late reply ! I got stuck in a manga and forgot about this XD
What would be a good time to play with you ? Since Time Zones pretty much screw us over, there is no way for me to know when you can play or not :ohwell:
I'm in GMT +1 btw.
 

MintyBreeze

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#15
Well, it's early for me. We have about a four or so hour gap. I'd be able to play with you at any time in the afternoon, or the morning (which includes now.).

Now, what I can already tell for sure is that Up-Tilt needs to be respected. It can kill Charizard in the 120%. As such, don't try to get too close to him! I suspect that our shield will become very useful, since Mega Man's grab doesn't have as much range as Charizard's.

Some neat things I've noticed Mega Man can do; Like Charizard, his skid after he dashes is super short, and his pivot isn't bad either. Like our skid allows us to use Up-Smash fairly effectively, I suspect it makes moves like Mega Man's Up-Smash and Up-Tilt easier to land. Treat those two animations like you would treat another Charizard, they can cancel just as quickly.
Taking those two factors into consideration, I'd recommend being more careful with your Up-Smashes. He has the potential to use similar tactics, and can punish you just as hard despite your weight. I stress this.

Not sure just how relevant it is, but it seems that Mega Man's D-Air actually halts him in the air a tiny bit, but has enough range to hit us out of our grounded anti-aerial attacks. Someone with quick reaction times could, I think, potentially hold themselves in the air and punish our attempt to seal a stock with a bop to the face.

That's what I've gathered without having experience in the match-up yet, but I'll see what else I can find as time goes on.
 
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MintyBreeze

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#16
I believe I can say that the match-up is 60:40 in Megaman's favor, a large part of that being the lemons. Just having them there really hurts Charizard, where he can't tank them like Bowser, or try to really outrange them, like a Dedede. They hurt so many of his approach options, and even if you decide to not be the aggressor, why should they stop using them? N-Air is one of our few ways of getting in. I wouldn't rely on your shieldgrab to help with this either... Why would the Mega Man be close enough for that?

As for Metal Blades, they're surprisingly useful against Zard. At close range, the one I fought was able to use them for grab set-ups, especially in mid-air and close range. With so many projectiles, I don't think Charizard has an honest chance of being able to play his usual, defensive mid-range style. They're also a bit threatening if you try to recover high, as they can just be angled diagonally towards you. But worst of all for me is the Crash Bomb. It forces you into your shield, where the Mega Man can move forward without any fear of being retaliated against.

Do you know how huge that is against Charizard? It's more than Up-Tilt being a wonderful kill move for Mega Man, more than the lemons limiting our options. Charizard thrives on stage control, and as inexperienced as I am with him, the majority of my victories came as a direct result of damage near the edges of the stage. Having something that can force him to shield, sometimes longer than necessary, keeps him from using the baiting and punishing style he usually has. Mega Man is similar to Charizard in that his kill moves are very punishable if they whiff or get blocked, but at least in this match-up, the projectiles give me a strong feeling that Mega Man is dominant.

However, with such a convincingly difficult match-up, I've also found some hope... Mega Man has the potential to be a great secondary for Charizard, I think. Both have very quick options out of their dash, and excel in punishing mistakes. Each of them, albeit in different ways, try to keep their enemies away as they rack up damage and limit their options with whatever they have (Flamethrower and Crash Bomb, although Mega Man has some more suppressing tools). While I don't think one character is strictly better than the other, I do believe that they compliment each other surprisingly well. Either way, rambling time is over.

I wouldn't recommend platform stages besides Yoshi's Island, at least on the 3DS. Small platforms just seem to lend themselves more to Mega Man, where he can outrange us with his F-Air, move past our defenses on the ground, and generally confuse us with projectiles. While I have little knowledge of customs, I hope it's realized that Flare Blitz is our go to Side B.

This is just from my experience of a few matches, but I feel as if I've learned enough from them to know it isn't in our favor. If someone more knowledgable about it could correct me on points I goof up on, I would appreciate it.

Both Mega Men and Charizards: What customs could potentially swing this match-up?
 

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#17
I believe I can say that the match-up is 60:40 in Megaman's favor, a large part of that being the lemons. Just having them there really hurts Charizard, where he can't tank them like Bowser, or try to really outrange them, like a Dedede. They hurt so many of his approach options, and even if you decide to not be the aggressor, why should they stop using them? N-Air is one of our few ways of getting in. I wouldn't rely on your shieldgrab to help with this either... Why would the Mega Man be close enough for that?

As for Metal Blades, they're surprisingly useful against Zard. At close range, the one I fought was able to use them for grab set-ups, especially in mid-air and close range. With so many projectiles, I don't think Charizard has an honest chance of being able to play his usual, defensive mid-range style. They're also a bit threatening if you try to recover high, as they can just be angled diagonally towards you. But worst of all for me is the Crash Bomb. It forces you into your shield, where the Mega Man can move forward without any fear of being retaliated against.

Do you know how huge that is against Charizard? It's more than Up-Tilt being a wonderful kill move for Mega Man, more than the lemons limiting our options. Charizard thrives on stage control, and as inexperienced as I am with him, the majority of my victories came as a direct result of damage near the edges of the stage. Having something that can force him to shield, sometimes longer than necessary, keeps him from using the baiting and punishing style he usually has. Mega Man is similar to Charizard in that his kill moves are very punishable if they whiff or get blocked, but at least in this match-up, the projectiles give me a strong feeling that Mega Man is dominant.

However, with such a convincingly difficult match-up, I've also found some hope... Mega Man has the potential to be a great secondary for Charizard, I think. Both have very quick options out of their dash, and excel in punishing mistakes. Each of them, albeit in different ways, try to keep their enemies away as they rack up damage and limit their options with whatever they have (Flamethrower and Crash Bomb, although Mega Man has some more suppressing tools). While I don't think one character is strictly better than the other, I do believe that they compliment each other surprisingly well. Either way, rambling time is over.

I wouldn't recommend platform stages besides Yoshi's Island, at least on the 3DS. Small platforms just seem to lend themselves more to Mega Man, where he can outrange us with his F-Air, move past our defenses on the ground, and generally confuse us with projectiles. While I have little knowledge of customs, I hope it's realized that Flare Blitz is our go to Side B.

This is just from my experience of a few matches, but I feel as if I've learned enough from them to know it isn't in our favor. If someone more knowledgable about it could correct me on points I goof up on, I would appreciate it.

Both Mega Men and Charizards: What customs could potentially swing this match-up?
Flare Cannon might be an interesting tool.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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#18
I hate this MU.

You can't flareblitz or even maybe Dragon Rush at all if he just uses his jab properly. He has a lot of ranged poke to keep us out and can kill surprisingly well if he gets the right hit in, Utilt, Fsmash, Bair, Usmash, Dsmash. He has the tools to play natural on his terms and he struggle sometimes to just get a decent hit in.

If he has customs it's even worse to deal with, crash bombs are a huge advantage for him.

We will kill earlier on average, even more so with platforms.

Ban FD and any stage that lets him play his game in neutral like Duck hunt sometimes can or Smashville, get a stage with good platform set-up and we can approach him a lot better.

I don't have a ratio, might be even or his favor depending on the stage, maybe our favor on Battlefield and Dreamland. My experience is that it can be very frustrating as Zard.
 

MintyBreeze

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#19
- Against F-Tilt, which pressures us a lot to either shield, move back, or jump into the air, maybe Rock Smash would be a good 'surprise' option? If anyone gets the chance to play this match-up, could you try it? Because I'm pretty it can't be canceled once he starts it. If that's the case, if we're within close enough a range, we'll have a fairly high chance of a punish if you can land it!

- I think we have a 50-50 chance of beating out his F-Air, since both moves have relatively the same speed, but of course it helps to not be the aggressor sometimes. As mentioned above, B-Air and U-Tilt can kill Charizard very early. Do not underestimate them, even if you're in the stock lead, as it could be all for naught. In the air and off-stage though our B-Air outranges his, even if it's slower.

- I think just knowing the timing of the Crash Bomb would help. Sure, it does force you to shield, but you don't have to hold it - unlike what I previously thought, you can shield quickly as you know it's about to explode. Mega Man requires you to be patient... Which as Charizard, you should be doing in the first place. His pellets are threatening, but deal little damage, while his other approaches are indeed punishable, if you can get the timing right.

- D-Tilt is punishable with Flare Blitz, same with Dash Attack, an uncharged F-Smash, and D-Smash. However, I think if we fail Flare Blitz on a shield, Mega Man can jab lock us. I'd recommend only using it when he's in the air, or when some of the other chances here are listed, because that's such a risk to take.

- Don't try to land on Mega Man with N-Air, his F-Air and U-Air usually can't beat it. Similarly, I wouldn't recommend jumping over his pellets, as it makes your next actions really easy to predict.

- Throwing out attacks at close range is suicide, since his jab can disrupt them anyways. Shield, look out for grabs, and don't waste your rolls. Don't even try to rush him if he's jabbing you, Flamethrower should be helpful here.

Is there anything else that needs to be talked about before a summary is made?
 

Steeler

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#20
Customs-wise, Danger Wrap is dangerous but you can attack it or shield it to nullify it without exploding.
 

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#21
Not that much into match-up talk, but from some research I did a while back for the MM board, Charizard is the only character on the roster who can be hit by Metal Blade a 3rd time without a Super Mushroom, when thrown horizontally (which is the main way MB is used).

9-15%, depending on how it's thrown is nothing to scoff at. Probably not major, but it happens enough to be worth pointing out.
 
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