Charizard Matchup Discussion - Diddy Kong

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#2
Rocketbarrel gimps with Flamethrower? That's all I've got...against a good Diddy, which I have yet to play, I don't think we can do anything, I've lost to trash Diddies before because he's Diddy Kong.
 

Diddy Kong

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#3
This gotta be one of you guys worst matchups, Diddy combos the ever living hell out of Charizard. There's really not much you can do outside of hoping for shield grabs and doing punishes, because Diddy is gonna rush at you and throw things at you that you don't want. Due to Charizard's weight, taking the stock could take some time, but building up damage won't take much time. At all.

Peanut Popguns are also extremely effective against Charizard off-stage. Don't get into Diddy's camping 'comfort zone' near the ledges, it'll be better to recover higher or from below the stage. Because Peanuts are gonna rain on you, and you might get stomped with a D Air afterwards, resulting in early kills for Diddy.

Flamethrower might or might not stop bananas laying on stage, I suggest to check that out. As for the rest, take advantage of Zard's bulk and mobility and the fact that it's much easier for y'all to get the actual KO. Especially with rage. Rage could do some funny things in the matchup, and it's the same here as in the Sheik matchup basically.

I however think we beat you guys harder than Sheik, because we have better kill confirms, and Diddy can gimp Zard very badly thanks to Peanuts.

Years of fighting reptile armies might be the reason why Diddy might just be one of your worst nightmares in the matchup department. :4diddy:
 

EvilPinkamina

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#4
LMAO this is probably 50:50. This is far from our worst matchup though. All Zards can agree that ZSS is the worst matchup.

Anyway, rush down diddy doesn't threaten Zard as much as he really should. Rarely ever in my matchups against Diddy do I ever find myself offstage, and even then just recovering really low or high prevents any struggle against Diddy. Also flare blitz. Sweet spot the ledge and heavy armor doesn't break to peanuts. Only issue is if you're far out and low, but you're probably dead anyway, peanuts or not. Diddy is also a character that is very badly hurt by flamethrower edgeguarding, because it beats all of Diddy's recovery options. (Most aerials also edgeguard against diddy p well tho, save for uair and dair) Fast moves are really good. Shield is really good against monkey flip kick, and flare blitz is good against monkey flip and kick from medium/long range. If a Diddy's going to throw banana at you, shield and rock smash both work to prevent yourself from tripping and then you can punish with fast moves like Fly, jab, or Up smash. If Diddy dash grabs then SH Nair into jab or grab. If you grab you can get your dthrow > fair and it can kill at higher %s or, at the very least, set up for edgeguards, which, as stated earlier, Zard is really good at against Diddy. Also, Monkey Flip > B-reverse banana pull landing shenanagins can be countered by Flare Blitz.

Just, uh, don't get grabbed really. You can still get comboed. Usually you can just rock smash through Hoo Hah though.

Rock Smash and Flare Blitz, p good.

Matchup is 50:50 at the very least. I stand by that.
 

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#5
I also have to agree.

Between all of our top tier match ups. We handle Diddy the best.
 

Diddy Kong

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#6
How does Flamethrower mess with Diddy's recovery if he isn't directly below Charizard? Diddy has just as many means to recover as Charizard does, if not more. Side B covers a lot of distance to, and charged up Up B can outmaneuver anything Charizard is willing to risk off-stage. 50 - 50 vs Diddy is just not realistic. There's just nothing Charizard can effectively do to stop Diddy mauling at him with combos, bananas and grabs. Best is to play very patiently, abuse the fact it takes long for Diddy to kill, abuse rage and find a way to effectively punish.

Remember Diddy has the best neutral in the game basically, and has combos for days, and Charizard is combo food. This basically sums up the whole matchup; you are gonna get stuff thrown at you, build your %s up real fast, and get a sence of standing a chance due to Diddy's struggle for securing the kill, then get frustrated as even if Diddy is Diddy and Zard is Zard, gettign a kill from 200% is much easier than getting a kill from 50~100%.
 

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#7
Charizard actually has Rock Smash to get through combos

All it needs it one good read with Zard and he's free.


Diddy, I think you're underestimating Zard's offstage game. It's among the best and he will come back to the stage most of the time.

The only real gimp Diddy can actually do is metering Zard through Flare Blitz which is hard to do especially since Diddy's meteor hotbox is close to him.
 

EvilPinkamina

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#8
Flame thrower can be angled up to catch flip/kick and at the ledge for up b. Also, when recovering, rarely ever will you be able to fully charge your up b and not get punished in one way or another (assuming you don't kill yourself trying to get the full charge). Diddy definitely has the second best neutral in the game, no question, and neutral isn't Zard's best spot. However, Zard's issue with the neutral is the approach. Against any rushdown, you don't need to worry about the approach. Also, killing at >100% is the Zard specialty. Fsmash, up air, up throw on some stages and Fly. Speaking of fly, it's a great out of shield option (frame 9 and super armor at the beginning), which is really helpful when you spotdodge your opponent and need to punish quickly. It also kills quite early.

If you need more Zard experience, we've got a few players in the Skype chat that would probs be up for a game.
 

Diddy Kong

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#9
You are implying that Rock Smash even comes out fast enough to intervere with Diddy's shenanigans... It can work as a cruel surprise, sure. But in the earlier damage building %s, there's probably little chance to pull it off. Diddy is just able to follow up too quickly, most of the time.

Flare Blitz isn't to be messed with, sure. Off-stage I wouldn't ever want to challenge it, but Fly is extremely punishable. And if you are getting hit with a Peanut off-stage, you'll either get hit with more and damage will build up till F Air or B Air can finish the deal, or you have a chance to get D Air'd.

What I especially do not get is how Charizard would ever get around Diddy's neutral mostly. Even if Rock Smash will get more effective at higher %s, Charizard has nothing to challenge bananas. And bananas are easy set ups for Diddy for just about anything.

I see this matchup as 60-40 for Diddy due to this alone.
 

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#10
Fly actually has more super armor than Flare Blitz. There isn't a limit for Fly. Fly is like Aether. It goes til it's done.



On another note, I wouldn't mind playing ya Diddy Kong Diddy Kong . We can fiddle around with this stuff and it would be fun. :D
 
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#11
I think you guys are underestimating Diddy because he lost the Hoo Hah, he's still top tier. Even with customs on, while we get a better side special and other great tools, Diddy gets confirmed combos into Rocketbarrel Attack. Besides, our best top tier matchup is probably Luigi, he can't combo us as hard if at all and his new ones only work on fast fallers. 60-40 in Diddy's favor is my thought.
 

EvilPinkamina

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#12
Rock Smash does come out quickly enough. It's come out quickly enough since 1.0.0.

Fly is extremely punishable when used in neutral. That's really it. Offstage its p difficult to punish unless, as stated earlier, "...you're far out and low, but you're probably dead anyway." On top of that, you rarely ever find yourself offstage against Diddy to begin with, unless you're Flare Blitzing off stage or are trying to approach him with Dash Attack and hit shield.

Challenge banana's with a good item game. Powershield/Grab the banana/don't walk into it. Also, IIRC nair deals with bananas. Nair is p good.

50:50. Maybe even 45:55 Zard favor.

EDIT:
I think you guys are underestimating Diddy because he lost the Hoo Hah, he's still top tier. Even with customs on, while we get a better side special and other great tools, Diddy gets confirmed combos into Rocketbarrel Attack. Besides, our best top tier matchup is probably Luigi, he can't combo us as hard if at all and his new ones only work on fast fallers. 60-40 in Diddy's favor is my thought.
At least pre patch Luigi comboed the **** out of Charizard. Not to mention that we had a good matchup against Diddy even before Hoo Hah nerf because Diddy only killed Zard early with Hoo Hah on Jank-fino Plaza.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#14
If I had to put a number to this I'd say that it's around 50/50 or 55/45 for Diddy.

It's closer than one would think, but not quite even.
 

Diddy Kong

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#15
Fly actually has more super armor than Flare Blitz. There isn't a limit for Fly. Fly is like Aether. It goes til it's done.



On another note, I wouldn't mind playing ya Diddy Kong Diddy Kong . We can fiddle around with this stuff and it would be fun. :D
I'd love to, and if I would've owned a Wii U you'd have personal experience why this is a horrible matchup. :)

We'll play one day.

The day capitalism falls might have to come first- but hey, with the way things are going in the world that could be next week Tuesday.
 

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#18
I do agree with both of you, at certain points. I do agree with Diddy Kong Diddy Kong that Diddy's bannana, kill set ups, and combos give him an advantage in this MU, but not nearly as much as you think. Zard's fair and nair, flamehrower gimping,rage, and super armor really makes a huge difference in this match up its definitiely a winnable matchup 55 : 45 Diddy

PS: RosaLuma is our worst top tier matchup, NOT Diddy
 

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#20
RosaLuma isn't nearly as bad as ZSS. Also Diddy's banana ain't **** when your item/shield/dodge game is on point.
I found RosaLuma harder because if ZSS whiffs her grab........dear god......we can punish really hard. And you're right, shields, airdodges, and I believe N-air can beat out bannanas too
 

Lyserdon

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#24
How is an item game relevant? Sheik has no items.
I think he was referring the the shield/dodge portion of "item/shield/dodge".

Except that diddy's banana is faaar easier to react to consistently than needles, so I don't see the comparison as holding even with that caveat. I'm not a high level player but diddy's banana shenanigans (bananigans?) have never seemed like a significant threat to me. Especially since they require, as I think Shaya put it, " batmanesque prep time". Serious question: is there any reason to not just rush diddy as soon as you see the banana come out? As long as I'm not all the way across the stage, I have a pretty good track record stealing the little guy's banana before he can catch it or just punishing him when he goes for it. Am I just not playing good Diddys?
Sheik's needles on the other hand are easier for her to charge over a series of small windows and are hell to react to.
 
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charizardbro

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#26
60:40 in favor of Diddy if Diddy actually knows the MU. There's also some misinfo floating about this thread imo. That's just imo, though. I agree with just about everything concerning Zard's non-special options but I think we are underestimating Diddy and overestimating our own specials.

Diddy's high recovery options with monkey flip kick are really good until higher percents. His recovery is actually really hard to cover with Zard for this reason alone. If you start spitting flames too early and he recovers high, you lose stage control and Diddy possibly gets a free punish. Start the flames too late and Diddy's already on the ledge. Fastfall -> monkey flip kick is very hard to cover for low recoveries. Read the high recovery and he can try to juke you with a b reverse banana toss. So many mixups for Diddy.

LMAO this is probably 50:50. This is far from our worst matchup though. All Zards can agree that ZSS is the worst matchup.

Fast moves are really good. Shield is really good against monkey flip kick, and flare blitz is good against monkey flip and kick from medium/long range. If a Diddy's going to throw banana at you, shield and rock smash both work to prevent yourself from tripping and then you can punish with fast moves like Fly, jab, or Up smash. If Diddy dash grabs then SH Nair into jab or grab. If you grab you can get your dthrow > fair and it can kill at higher %s or, at the very least, set up for edgeguards, which, as stated earlier, Zard is really good at against Diddy. Also, Monkey Flip > B-reverse banana pull landing shenanagins can be countered by Flare Blitz.

Just, uh, don't get grabbed really. You can still get comboed. Usually you can just rock smash through Hoo Hah though.

Rock Smash and Flare Blitz, p good.

Matchup is 50:50 at the very least. I stand by that.
Shield is a 50/50 on monkey flip kick. Either he goes for the command grab or the kick. Sometimes you can't even punish the kick if he flies through you far enough.

Can't punish bannana toss unless you are really close. Diddy pretty much has to misspace for that to happen. Dash -> powershield sometimes gets them to mess up though. And armoring through it is a really bad idea if he's actually spacing the tosses decently.

You can't SH Nair on reaction when you see Diddy dash grab unless he's dashing at you from half stage. In which case, that Diddy has some things to work on. You're far better off trying to interrupt dash grab with jabs if you think you can time it.

Hoo Hah is guaranteed on us if Diddy actually learns the percents. Rock Smash is also super punishable if they bait. Airdodge > Rocksmash against Hoo Hah imo. Like way better. If you see them overextending themselves at low percent, it's a really devastating option but it's really not useful outside of that against Hoo Hah imo.

Also

don't get grabbed
What's the word I'm looking for... LMAO? This is way easier said than done and Diddy has low percent confirms for grabs so good luck with that.

I also don't think it's very reasonable to discount what Diddy Kong said about Diddy's offstage game against us because you don't find yourself offstage much in the MU. Diddy has a great neutral. I don't see why he should struggle to get Zard offstage when he has a good neutral.

Fly actually has more super armor than Flare Blitz. There isn't a limit for Fly. Fly is like Aether. It goes til it's done.
I'm relatively certain Fly doesn't have armor on the end of it and the armor it does have doesn't last much longer than startup. Otherwise, I would never even bother learning to tech stage spikes lol.


We also shouldn't overlook how well Diddy traps us at the ledge. A well placed banana at the ledge covers so many options against us because we don't really have any ledge drop -> double jump -> anything options. All he has to do is put the banana at the ledge and hold shield to make life really hard for us.

Lastly, Diddy doesn't have to play rush down. Campy/defensive Diddy is also viable against us. Letting us get to too high of a percent can lead to Diddy's own undoing but that should be the name of the game until we get rage.

Certainly not our worst MU but it wouldn't be too big of a stretch to call it top 5 worst. ZSS Dedede Sheik Rosalina and maybe Pikachu are the only ones I can come up with that are probably worse.
 
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#27
I can get behind a lot of this, though I don't quite agree with a couple of things. The first is that despite the fact that Zard in general struggles against camping and projectiles, and despite Diddy's projectiles being normally very effective in this instance I don't actually think campy Diddy works effectively against Zard due to two things. The first being that Flamethrower eats both of Diddy's projectiles for breakfast. Since they're both only effective as mid range projectiles, Zard can edge his way in and start pressuring with Flamethrower while Diddy doesn't really have an answer if he's began to commit to trying to zone/camp you out. He either has to just take/shield the Flamethrower until he's at max distance away from it where even if he has a banana in hand it's hard for him to punish you. Of course, Diddy can always predict the Flamethrower and go over you or try to brute force his way in with Monkey Flip, but that kind of just justifies what I'm getting at. Diddy eventually has to try to brute force his way in simply due to the nature of that move.

The other thing is that Flare Blitz can punish both of Diddy's projectiles at pretty much its maximum distance provided if you're able to scout it out. Versus the banana it's particularly potent as it means that Zard can make it difficult for Diddy to find opportunities to take out his most effective neutral and stage control tool as he is one of the few characters who can theoretically hard punish you for taking one out almost anywhere. Granted this does require a read or at best a very fast reaction if you aren't too far away, but it's not necessarily one that is too difficult as Diddy's banana is far too important for his...well...everything for him not to feel compelled to take one out at some point.

I do think this is a losing match-up for Zard simply because of how good Diddy is at controlling the stage and extending his punishes once he gets that grab due to a combination of Diddy have some of the overall best stage control options in the game combined with Zard's poor landing and anti-pressure options (NAir and Rock Smash can only get you so far especially with poor jumps and a bad air speed). However what I find interesting about this match-up and why I don't think it's too terrible is that Diddy can't quite exploit his options in neutral as much as he would like to against Zard. One would think against a giant, somewhat sluggish heavyweight brute like Zard that Diddy would have a field day but Zard is better at shutting down Diddy's neutral options than one may think. And of course despite Diddy's excellent punish game vs Zard, Zard is no stranger to hitting hard either and if a Zard can keep the banana in check Diddy will have a very hard time getting rid of him due to his overall lack of KO power.

I personally am not too big a fan of giving match-ups numbers. It overly simplifies what is a complex dynamic between players and characters. I will say though that despite the fact that I do think this is a losing matchup for Zard, I do think it's incredibly doable as well.
 

charizardbro

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#28
So I agree that Flamethrower is a pretty big asset for us in neutral (and even more so against campy Diddys) but Diddy's camping game has never been about winning with popgun and banana peel damage alone. He's not DHD. Forcing the approach doesn't break the camp for him, in a certain sense, because he's always been about waiting for a good time to approach while camping. This time he just might have to force his way in rather than simply spacing and waiting for a confirm. I don't think this alone is enough to make campy Diddy unviable against Zard though. Forcing his approach makes the style fundamentally not campy, I concede that, but I do still think the outcomes of the Flamethrower vs projectiles game favor Diddy.

You can try to Flare Blitz the peanut gun on shot and the banana on the initial toss but I think the risk far exceeds the reward. Either you time it brilliantly and net 9%+maybe a kill or he shields it and nets 10% + a really free punish. An interesting option for a surprise kill at high percent but this doesn't dominate the MU, imo. Diddy can also full hop -> down b and act out of it well before touching the ground, if he feels that scared by Flare Blitz. You only have to mess up the read once to get Diddy back into the game or extend his lead. It does the same for you at higher percents. Not so much at lower percents. Flare Blitz clanks with a banana peel, by the way.

I don't think the MU is terrible either. Zard does far better against Diddy than you would think at first glance. Especially in neutral. I'd characterize 60:40 as losing but doable so we agree on that one. Numbers oversimplify things, yea.
 

Diddy Kong

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#29
Dragon Rush would help the matchup out greatly for Zard. I agree with 60-40 for Diddy to. His mobility and Flamethrower do make neutral more challenging for Diddy than it should. But once punished, grabbed or juggled, Diddy will inflict tons of damage most of the time.
 
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#30
Honestly, the Diddy matchup isn't quite as painful as the Shiek MU anymore, especially with the buffs Zard has gotten as opposed to Diddy's nerfs. At launch, I would have certainly agreed that the Zard/Diddy MU was at best a 10-90 for Diddy; all of Diddy's options made Zard a cakewalk for him. Now that Diddy's been so hardly hit by the nerfhammer while Zard's been getting buffed what seems like every balance patch, Charizard definitely has tools to beat Diddy now, but it's still not quite even. Maybe something like 40-50 in Diddy's favor is a good statistic.

Diddy definitely has enough options to be a threat to us, but the nerfs he's gotten have reduced his effectiveness in the MU, in my opinion. Flare Blitz deals handily with Diddy's bananas, and Flamethrower is also good at negating Diddy's stage control by shutting down his ability to toss bananas at Zard for an easy grab combo. Diddy has to respect Flare Blitz, as well; because it's so powerful at shutting down his most viable approach option and can be really painful for him if he can't react in time. The loss of Hoo-Haa's effectiveness for Diddy makes it so juggling is less viable for him as an attack option; especially since now Zard's aerials come out faster and are stronger than Diddy's nerfed UAir, which was once one of his most effective kill moves against Zard. Even still, though, Diddy has the advantage in that most of his moves are able to combo into each other, which can make it harder for Zard to predict him and adapt against it.

Zard's jab is really quick, and his grab is also pretty fast, as well; add to that his combo throw and aerials that are quick to come out and I honestly think that Charizard is pretty decent at fighting Diddy now. Charizard's NAir can also cover a decent amount of Diddy's approach options in the air since, again, Diddy's UAir got so horribly nerfed; which means it no longer works as well as a defensive option for Diddy against Charizard's aerials. Charizard's kill throw also kills Diddy pretty early, IIRC; not as early as Puff, but Diddy doesn't live as long against it as DK, either. Zard's fast grab speed means that even if he whiffs it, there's not much time for Diddy to punish the whiffed grab.

Flamethrower also shuts down Diddy's Rocketbarrels pretty hard as an edgeguarding tool, especially if Diddy is trying to recover from below the stage, which is a pretty bad thing when that's his only vertical recovery move. Monkey Flip also gets shut down by Flamethrower, though that's a lot less easy to do since usually Diddy will use Monkey Flip if he's trying to recover above the stage; so there, I'd suppose either Nair, Uair or Fair could do the job, maybe Dair if you feel like trying to spike him. However, Zard still can outlive Diddy due to his higher weight meaning he's KO'd at higher percents than Diddy; and a Charizard with rage is a scary prospect for Diddy, because it makes all his viable KO options even more ferocious against him.

The fact that Zard's DAir comes out so fast also makes recovering with Diddy a pretty big risk; do you go for Rocketbarrels to get vertical distance, but risk being open to Charizard either coming in and stomping you to the blastzone or simply detonating the barrels with his Flamethrower and watching you fall to your doom, or do you try to go for Monkey Flip, which will make Charizard go in with his own aerial to counter it and could still end well for you, but doesn't do very well in vertically recovering? Hell, even trying to use Monkey Flip above the stage can be risky if the Charizard predicts it and uses Flare Blitz, which outprioritizes Monkey Flip. Diddy does better in the neutral, but Charizard is definitely better at the offstage game, and is great at keeping Diddy offstage. The fact that Flamethrower and Flare Blitz both cancel out the banana, which is Diddy's bread-and-butter in neutral, is a major factor for the MU. Without the banana in place, Charizard can have a much easier time with Diddy, since bananas are almost a staple of Diddy's neutral game.

It's really quite close now, even if Diddy still has a slight edge over Zard.
 

Diddy Kong

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#31
Hoo Hah is gone, sure. But Diddy stil does insane damage in Zard once grabbed. The ultimate fundamentals Diddy always had vs Zard still excist. Flare Blitz is an extremely risky move, especially against one with Diddy's mobility and punishing options. Diddy still beats Zard badly in the air, and bananas are easy to catch... Fire isn't easily gonna touch them if the Diddy player knows what he's doing. It's definitely in Diddy's advantage.
 

charizardbro

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#33
Honestly, the Diddy matchup isn't quite as painful as the Shiek MU anymore, especially with the buffs Zard has gotten as opposed to Diddy's nerfs. At launch, I would have certainly agreed that the Zard/Diddy MU was at best a 10-90 for Diddy; all of Diddy's options made Zard a cakewalk for him. Now that Diddy's been so hardly hit by the nerfhammer while Zard's been getting buffed what seems like every balance patch, Charizard definitely has tools to beat Diddy now, but it's still not quite even. Maybe something like 40-50 in Diddy's favor is a good statistic.

Diddy definitely has enough options to be a threat to us, but the nerfs he's gotten have reduced his effectiveness in the MU, in my opinion. Flare Blitz deals handily with Diddy's bananas, and Flamethrower is also good at negating Diddy's stage control by shutting down his ability to toss bananas at Zard for an easy grab combo. Diddy has to respect Flare Blitz, as well; because it's so powerful at shutting down his most viable approach option and can be really painful for him if he can't react in time. The loss of Hoo-Haa's effectiveness for Diddy makes it so juggling is less viable for him as an attack option; especially since now Zard's aerials come out faster and are stronger than Diddy's nerfed UAir, which was once one of his most effective kill moves against Zard. Even still, though, Diddy has the advantage in that most of his moves are able to combo into each other, which can make it harder for Zard to predict him and adapt against it.

Zard's jab is really quick, and his grab is also pretty fast, as well; add to that his combo throw and aerials that are quick to come out and I honestly think that Charizard is pretty decent at fighting Diddy now. Charizard's NAir can also cover a decent amount of Diddy's approach options in the air since, again, Diddy's UAir got so horribly nerfed; which means it no longer works as well as a defensive option for Diddy against Charizard's aerials. Charizard's kill throw also kills Diddy pretty early, IIRC; not as early as Puff, but Diddy doesn't live as long against it as DK, either. Zard's fast grab speed means that even if he whiffs it, there's not much time for Diddy to punish the whiffed grab.

Flamethrower also shuts down Diddy's Rocketbarrels pretty hard as an edgeguarding tool, especially if Diddy is trying to recover from below the stage, which is a pretty bad thing when that's his only vertical recovery move. Monkey Flip also gets shut down by Flamethrower, though that's a lot less easy to do since usually Diddy will use Monkey Flip if he's trying to recover above the stage; so there, I'd suppose either Nair, Uair or Fair could do the job, maybe Dair if you feel like trying to spike him. However, Zard still can outlive Diddy due to his higher weight meaning he's KO'd at higher percents than Diddy; and a Charizard with rage is a scary prospect for Diddy, because it makes all his viable KO options even more ferocious against him.

The fact that Zard's DAir comes out so fast also makes recovering with Diddy a pretty big risk; do you go for Rocketbarrels to get vertical distance, but risk being open to Charizard either coming in and stomping you to the blastzone or simply detonating the barrels with his Flamethrower and watching you fall to your doom, or do you try to go for Monkey Flip, which will make Charizard go in with his own aerial to counter it and could still end well for you, but doesn't do very well in vertically recovering? Hell, even trying to use Monkey Flip above the stage can be risky if the Charizard predicts it and uses Flare Blitz, which outprioritizes Monkey Flip. Diddy does better in the neutral, but Charizard is definitely better at the offstage game, and is great at keeping Diddy offstage. The fact that Flamethrower and Flare Blitz both cancel out the banana, which is Diddy's bread-and-butter in neutral, is a major factor for the MU. Without the banana in place, Charizard can have a much easier time with Diddy, since bananas are almost a staple of Diddy's neutral game.

It's really quite close now, even if Diddy still has a slight edge over Zard.
I've got nothing against your opinion on the MU but a lot of the evidence you use to back it up is simply not true.

You really gotta look up the frame data before you base your opinion on the MU on it. Our Dair is a frame 18 move. That's not quick. Nair isn't quick. Our quickest aerial is Fair which is frame 6 (woops, looks like it's actually frame 8) which is not exactly all that quick either. Diddy's grabs come out faster and ends faster than ours. If you want to claim that our grab is hard to punish on whiff, (which btw.. y'know what never mind) Diddy's is even harder to punish.

You also might want to try hitting the lab (or finding a Diddy main to throw down with) because Flare Blitz clanks with banana peels. You can only FB it if you read the initial toss, and even then, I'm not sure if that can be done. At the very least, I can say that the risk far exceeds the reward.

I also don't see why juggling is a poor attacking option for Diddy due to the Hoo Hah nerf. It's one frame slower and deals less damage/knockback. Still a ton better than our landing options. Our aerials are stronger, sure, but definitely not faster. This makes them way harder to actually land. Also, defensive Uair was never a thing outside of breaking certain combos.

Even if we have options to cover Diddy's recovery, I don't think they're any better than Diddy's provided he has a banana peel. If you recover low with Flare Blitz, he throws the peel and gets a free Dair while you can't act or it just flat out gimps you. Not sure if Z drop banana beats the end of Fly but that's a possible Dair confirm as well. High recoveries with Flare Blitz are more punishable than high recoveries with Monkey Flip Kick for obvious reasons. If you ask me, Diddy's options are way easier to use than ours due to Zard's poor frame data.

Hoo Hah is gone, sure. But Diddy stil does insane damage in Zard once grabbed. The ultimate fundamentals Diddy always had vs Zard still excist. Flare Blitz is an extremely risky move, especially against one with Diddy's mobility and punishing options. Diddy still beats Zard badly in the air, and bananas are easy to catch... Fire isn't easily gonna touch them if the Diddy player knows what he's doing. It's definitely in Diddy's advantage.
Pretty much this. The patch isn't night and day for Zard in this MU. It pushes things a lot closer to even than they used to be but I really don't think it solved our larger, more fundamental issues in the MU.

Prepatch, I didn't look at this MU and say "everything would be fine if Diddy just didn't have such a great Uair..." the way I did for some of Diddy's other MUs. It makes a bad situation worse but it isn't the source of the problem. I'd compare it to Shiek's nerfs, as they apply to the Zard MU. Bair was bad. But taking away Bair didn't make neutral any easier. Zard just gets to live longer, which would be super important in a close MU where even a little edge can turn that high percent last stock loss into a win but isn't as important when you're struggling to just get in on the other player in the first place.
 
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Virum

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#34
I believe FAir is actually frame 8. Fame 6 would actually be quite fast considering that move's arc and power, but frame 8 is still pretty good nonetheless. Still, overall Zard's aerial frame data is underwhelming particularly combined with his absurdly high landing lag values (32 frames of landing lag on FAir is unacceptable when moves of a similar nature have around/a little over half that). Really wish this character had his Brawl air speed at least, and reduced landing lag values across the board (this is something I want for all the heavies, as late non autocancelled aerials are typically unsafe for them even if spaced which imo is silly).
 

-LzR-

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#35
If anything, slow and strong moves are the ones that should be safer on block, not the fastest and best moves. For some reason every heavy has to slow and laggy. It doesn't honestly fit Charizard much. Fair should have 10 frames landing lag at most, it's not even that good anyways to make up for 32 frames.
 

Virum

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#36
If anything, slow and strong moves are the ones that should be safer on block, not the fastest and best moves. For some reason every heavy has to slow and laggy. It doesn't honestly fit Charizard much. Fair should have 10 frames landing lag at most, it's not even that good anyways to make up for 32 frames.
10 frames of landing lag on FAir is a stupid idea that's incohesive with Zard's overall design. That's the same as Sheik's FAir on a move that deals over twice as much damage and is capable of killing. It would turn FAir into a disgustingly strong pressure and rushdown tool (due to a 10 frame landing lag FAir being positive on block) which is something Zard doesn't need considering his current design. It definitely needs less landing lag, but 10 frames is far too little. Something between 18-22 frames would be more suitable. Landing with the move becomes less of a heavy commitment and it becomes a safer tool when well spaced but it would still be reasonably punishable if poorly spaced.

Personally I'd set his overall landing lag values from 22/32/33/22/35 to 16/20/22/16/25. This would grant greater flexibility to his aerial game as a whole, as well as allowing Zard to apply excellent mid range pressure but still having enough landing lag to properly punish poor spacing.
 

Steeler

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#37
What is also frustrating about the aerials is how much cooldown they have, in general. In an air to air situation, throwing out any aerial is a huge commitment. The IASA frames are not very generous, especially to nair. Over 30 frames of lag after the final hitbox comes out. This isn't a huge issue on its own as some other characters (Shulk especially) have pretty late IASA frames. The difference here is that it further compounds Zard's other disadvantages in the air (slow fall speed, slow air speed, terrible landing lag, mediocre to poor aerial startups, hell even his jumpsquat is terrible). He's a god damn flying type.

I mean, I get that this falls in line with the character's design of a "heavy hitter, heavy commitment, high reward" style. But all of these issues mentioned, combined with the air dodge landing lag change, make Charizard one of the worst, most vulnerable characters in the air. Period. So clearly Zard is meant to stay mostly grounded, what with his incredible jab/good grab/great dash/ranged normals. It's pretty good, but not consistently effective enough to make up for these weaknesses. So instead of finetuning these problems, they gave him pretty ridiculous reward off of grabs... it's easier, I guess, but not enough to help him keep up with very mobile and safe high tiers.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#38
Bananas are obnoxious.

Definitely doable but dang I fought an amazing Diddy and they took a while to figure out.
 
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