Charizard Matchup Discussion - Cloud

Strider755

Smash Journeyman
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Ike755
#2
OK, so the best way to handle Cloud is to get him offstage. His recovery is awful w/o limit break. However, he rules the air onstage and can easily juggle Lizardon due to his uair's stupid hitbox and our large size. Therefore, the best way to fight Cloud is on the ground. If you're careful of his dtilt and dair, you should do OK on the ground with the right reads. SH fairs and Kaen Hoshas (flamethrowers) should keep him in check.

At mid percents, you should start thinking about getting him offstage. If you can get a grab, try to use a fthrow or bthrow to get him offstage. That could put you in a position to either gimp him with Kaen Hosha or spike him with a dair. A good mixup would be to stage-spike him with bair or fair.
 

kendikong

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
279
#3
He's really not that hard when you get used to him. Some may say Cloud destroys Zard, but I strongly disagree. Zard has some pretty decent options against cloud.

Tips against fighting cloud.

Cloud in the air
If you time it well, USmash beats cloud's dair, which is one of Cloud's best approaches. Use it whenever you can. Seriously, you'll be surprised by how effective it is. Make him fear landing against you and the match will go a lot smoother for you. When he does he will go for double jump retreats on stage to get away. Use that chance for a well timed flare blitz kill on omega stages.

If you're proficient with zard's bair, use that to outrange cloud's aerials and get the kill.

Landing against cloud
Just don't try to challenge cloud when you're above him. Cloud's juggle game is where he will rack up the most damage against you. Instead, just stay out of cloud's range using your multi jumps, and retreat to the sides away from cloud. If you can't get away, fast fall airdodge through one of his up airs. I would also recommend trying to get on stage from the ledge by going offstage instead because that will actually be safer than landing on stage.

In Neutral
Play defensively. Shield a lot. Cloud's attacks have decent cooldown, but not enough to land any slow tilts or smashes. The best out of shield option is definitely jab. It comes out fast enough and has good range and damage. Opt for jab rather than shield grab because a decent cloud will space his attacks to avoid a grab attempt.

Stay patient, even If he is charges his limit. What you want to do is get close to him and shield and just wait for a reaction. He will get uncomfortable and stop charging and go for an attack.

If he grabs you a lot, no big deal really. Keep sticking with your defensive style. His grabs will not kill you or deal that much damage. Throw out a lot of raw jabs or dtilt when you expect a grab attempt. They're pretty good at countering grab attempts.

Edgeguarding Cloud
Flamethrower is very effective against a recovering cloud even if he has limit charged. It will almost always hit him. Just keep it out and aim it where cloud will be, and they will get gimped. After the first hit of flamethrower, clouds may try up b past the ledge to hit you out of flamethrower. If you expect this, just shield it and then dtilt before he snaps to the ledge and that will be a kill.

Clouds will fear going for a low recovery against you. Expect high recoveries from them. If they're about 45 degrees above from the ledge, expect a double jump on stage. Immediately counter it with a jump nair, and they will be forced into a low recovery and will have to face flamethrower. If cloud uses up B above the ledge. Throw out flamethrower and it will hit him before he snaps to the ledge.
 
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C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
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#4
In my experience Bowser does surprisingly well against Cloud, so I wouldn't count Charizard out, though it does look awful on paper. One thing that would be good to know; up tilt and smash are disjointed, but do they beat Cloud's down air? That would be a big help.
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
#7
Uair does? Does Zard have head invul during that move? I had no idea, wow. Good to know. So maybe Zard can juggle Cloud almost as hard as he gets juggled. With a kill throw and his weight, this matchup may not be too bad.
 
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