Charizard Matchup Discussion - Bayonetta

[Strider755]

All right Charizard players, what have you noticed so far about the - matchup?

So far, it's looking slightly in Bayonetta's favor due to Charizard's large size making him combo food and Bayonetta having Witch Time. However, I'm also noticing that Bayonetta's Bullet Climax is very easily punished with a Flare Blitz because of her endlag. In addition, Charizard's dash grab should be able to grab a shielded Bayonetta (some characters can't do that to her - needs patching). I've succeeded a few times. Anyone else got any thoughts?

 

[Steeler]

I think it's a very annoying matchup. I find her fairly difficult to kill off stage, what with how flexible her recovery can be and that counter. That said, I haven't really labbed whether we can consistently dair her up b or not. It does seem to have a lot of range.

As far as landing kill moves goes, again, having such a good counter really brings in the mindgame of whether or not to go for your utilt as she falls near you (or whatever) or waiting and possibly forfeiting your advantage. With the commitment we have on EVERY move, it's a real guessing game, I think. Don't even bother going for your ****ty frame traps with nair and such - she will see it coming and counter you to kill you at 80%. Really, challenging her in the air is just a bad idea. Nair is really good for her, covers everywhere and has very low landing lag. Bair is pretty decently strong, uair is a good frame trap. Dair is secret OP. Just blegh.

This is the first I've heard about the dash grab thing though, lol. Silly.

 

[RadianB]

Need to rely on Up Throw to kill her safely due to the fact that nearly all of Charizard's moves are telegraphed. Witch Time beats out invincibility and intangibility, Charizard's best traits. At least Witch Time doesn't work against Flamethrower. I need to play this match up more though to give a better analysis.

 

[enemy1]

Hi there, I main zard and my roommate as well as a few of my friends has been playing nothing but bayonetta. these are my thoughts on this mu since i play it everyday since she came out.

Neutral game -

Similarly to how high level Ganondorf players work in project m, Charizard cant really excel by going for anything brave and in the moment, to win a set you must be in it for the long run because of how easy it is to punish unsafe approaches from zard, meaning you must be patient, adaptive to the bayonetta your fighting patterns and when they choose to use witch time. witch time is a huge pain in this MU because of zards size and how easy it is for her to punish him. She can harass you from across any stage with her neutral B, the bullet move. She can also approach with her heel slide move which i think is her side B. Baiting, and Strong punishes is whats really going give Charizard some kind of edge. You can punish her side b approach with short hop fair, or spot dodge flamethrower/grab/ or rock smash. Really just stay on your toes and dont let her intimidate you to stay still or catch you in your shield, that will benefit bayo way more then you can allow it to. Flamethrower as a mixup out of airdodge landing onto the stage or to stop an over aggressive approach to make them respect your space. Flare Blitz to run away,punish a missed tech, not safe as a recovery, but to mix it up in a certain situation its okay. Constant movement, confidence in your spacing, and good adaption is how your going to win this neutral game.

For zards kill options, ive found that sweet spotting forward smash will kill Bayonetta between 80-100% and with no DI as low as 60%. Upthrow is the best, fthrow and bthrow are great get away from me options. I haven't been able to experiment much with upB out of shield to see how bayonetta can punish but when i get a better feel for it ill post something.

Witch time - Lol if you get caught and the bayo knows what there doing you will lost the stock. The main thing ive done is simply DI as best as i can when she gets me offstage and save my jumps and airdodges so i cant get witch timed or spiked.

She has way more options to edge guard us then we have on her so as im figuring this out i hope other zards are trying as well.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Play as safe as you possibly can, even if you have the advantage at the time.

Neutral:
-Flamethrower stuffs all of her ground approaches and is safe against witch time making it a very safe move to use
-Up smash stops literally all of her aerial approaches
-Shield is also extremely safe, she has nothing that actually beats shields, DI down if she down throws you and and shield again and roll away
-You are more mobile than she is so you can play the keep away game relatively well
Thats about it for the neutral

Offensive:
-Grab combos are effective against her but because of her frame 1 airdodge any sort of 50/50 isn't as effective and witch time makes it even less safe
-While her recovery is long if she saves her jump, it is gimpable. Offstage flame breath is safe against witch time so it can get get rid of her first recovery leaving her with a sub-par recovery that doesn't ledge snap very well so you can down smash her relatively easily for the kill or set her up for a spike with flamethrower if shes at too low of a percent for that to work
-Even though you are at an advantage, don't go for anything that you're not sure about. Mainly just go for grab combos and keeping her offstage, witch time will **** up your day

Defensive:
-Not everything she does is guaranteed but you don't have many combo breakers other than fly with frame 4 invincibility and will kill her off the top extremely early do to Bayonettas floatyness and her low weight. It will kill even earlier if shes dragging you up to the top so just mash upb if you're getting comboed
-Just 1 grab can reset the neutral and your grab is faster than all of her grounded moves but dtilt
-Again, flame breath is very effective here as it also resets the neutral
-Even with Bayonettas good offstage game, she isn't able to gimp you as easily as you would think. Fly is invincible so she cannot just counter and dair/down smash spike you. It will also kill her at around 100. Bullet Climax isnt really a problem either with Flare Blitz destroying all of those tiny little bullets and getting you to the ledge extremely fast or kill her with it if shes at ~130

I honestly think this matchup is even or in Charizards favor, he beats almost all of Bayonettas options. He can keep her from getting in and comboing so well and her combos don't actually work as well until around 30% because of his weight

 

[Mightyno.M]

Oh I'd also add that when u are in the middle of a string u can cancel it early to see if your opponent tries to use witch time or bats within. You could very well get something better.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Zard gets ****ed. Literally ****ed. Brutally. Not at all in Charizard's favor. Bayonetta's mobility makes it a hassle for Zard, her combo game is difficult to avoid as Zard, and on top of that Bayo can camp Charizard.

If we need any more proof, I'm not that good and I still beat a Zard without struggle that was easily better than me until they switched characters.

 

[Jmacz]

I'm assuming we can't Up-B out of her aerial combo's like we've seen with Jigglypuff's Rest and stuff from a few other character's? I have yet to play this MU other than one game against my friend who doesn't play her so that doesn't really count.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Which one? Bayo has a ton.

 

[C0rvus]

Remember to DI down and away from Bayonetta ' bread and butters. Definitely an awful matchup for Charizard. Having a kill throw and long grab is nice, so you don't have to live in fear of Witch Time.

 

[Jmacz]

Which one? Bayo has a ton.

Any of them, again I'm not familiar with Bayo's moveset. I've played three games with her and probably the same against. I just got my Wii U and I refuse to play FG so the only MU's I really know are characters my friend plays. I've just seen quite a few clips of Jiggs Resting her at the top of the screen as she's getting comboed or Kirby inhaling her offstage. I know our Up-B's super armor starts frame 4 so I figured we might be able to get some cheap kills off the top of the screen as she's comboing us.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

There are some aerial combos that Bayo has that aren't true, so those probably could be escaped with fly. Most of Bayo's combos are solid tho, so it'd be difficult to get out of for such a heavyweight.

 

[CRANTIME]

I think the best advantage Charizard has over Bayonetta is that Witchtime doesn't stop your hitbox.
Most of my Flare blitz's still hit through it.
It only works once a match however as they quickly smarten up.