Character You're Looking Forward To The Least Because of P:M?

[RIP|Merrick]

I'm really going to miss Lucas's crazy buffs he was given in P:M, but I'm sure I'll adjust fine to him in Smash 4...
Oh wait.

 

[Prism]

Roy. Wait, I mean, Mewtwo. Um, wait, of course, I mean Ivysaur. Lucas? Hot-damn most of my mains aren't even in Sm4sh! Though on a serious note, the only one for me is Zelda. R.I.P. actually useful Fireballs.

Although I main Link and he's pretty different in Smash 4, I don't care as I like the new version of him better. (The only thing I miss is his Boomerang, but I can replace his god awful Gale Boomerang with customs now, so moot point)

Haha, yeah I'm gonna miss Roy, Mewtwo, and Ivysaur.

 

[_Chrome]

Not looking to forward to the game in general just because of Project M in general. It was such a well put together game that really listens to the fans with patches for better balancing and stages. It's the perfect combination of competitiveness and fun! Sakurai said that Smash WiiU/3DS will be like a Melee/Brawl hybrid, but in my opinion it just looks like Brawl 2, albeit more balanced. *Sigh* Time will tell though, and for the first time Smash Bros is playable on the go (something I wished for since I was a little kid). In any case, let's keep having fun and try to get excited for the next game! :D

 

[Prism]

Not looking to forward to the game in general just because of Project M in general. It was such a well put together game that really listens to the fans with patches for better balancing and stages. It's the perfect combination of competitiveness and fun! Sakurai said that Smash WiiU/3DS will be like a Melee/Brawl hybrid, but in my opinion it just looks like Brawl 2, albeit more balanced. *Sigh* Time will tell though, and for the first time Smash Bros is playable on the go (something I wished for since I was a little kid). In any case, let's keep having fun and try to get excited for the next game! :D

I can't say I share your view at all! For one thing, the game plays much faster than Brawl, and it's closer to Smash 64 than anything (though I view it as a cross between 64 and PM). Project M was good but it was also over the top in my opinion, which wasn't bad, though I won't necessarily say it was good, either.

 

[_Chrome]

Hey great to hear another opinion! I've analyzed the game by watching and studying all of the physics about it, but I haven't actually played it yet. I was disappointed when I heard about the bigger blast zones and the laggy aerials w/o L-cancelling, but I really do love Smash 64! Is there anything specific you can tell me besides that?

 

[_Chrome]

Also great to see another Canadian

 

[Prism]

Hey great to hear another opinion! I've analyzed the game by watching and studying all of the physics about it, but I haven't actually played it yet. I was disappointed when I heard about the bigger blast zones and the laggy aerials w/o L-cancelling, but I really do love Smash 64! Is there anything specific you can tell me besides that?

In the air, it feels like Brawl, but fast falling is crazy fast and feels like Melee. Fighting wise, it really does feel like 64. Seems like characters like Bowser who can kill early will be the "best" characters until the game evolves a bit.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also great to see another Canadian

Amen.

Also yeah, this game is basically if Brawl and 64 had an illicit affair and the child was this.

The basic thing is that you have some laggy aerials, some good ones. Combo game is only a real thing at low %s and then you goal is to get someone offstage and gimp em/kill their recovery.

Basically, much like Brawl after Melee, this game is also completely different, but at least in a positive healthy way. Lots of Brawl's issues(planking, chaingrabs, cancellable hitstun) have been removed.

 

[_Chrome]

Amen.

Also yeah, this game is basically if Brawl and 64 had an illicit affair and the child was this.

The basic thing is that you have some laggy aerials, some good ones. Combo game is only a real thing at low %s and then you goal is to get someone offstage and gimp em/kill their recovery.

Basically, much like Brawl after Melee, this game is also completely different, but at least in a positive healthy way. Lots of Brawl's issues(planking, chaingrabs, cancellable hitstun) have been removed.

So how are the throws in this game? Also I read somewhere that the new "vectoring" physics destroys comboing and killing? Can anybody fully explain it to me, I don't quite understand.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So how are the throws in this game? Also I read somewhere that the new "vectoring" physics destroys comboing and killing? Can anybody fully explain it to me, I don't quite understand.

Okay, so vectoring lets you add(or adversely, reduce) your knockback value by an unknown amount atm(we just know that it adds). As far as survival, it makes survival a LOT easier. Combo wise, this is where it gets interesting, as a player can "vector" up and away to escape combos at certain %s. Other findings show that Vectoring scales with knockback, meaning that the lower the knockback, the less influence vectoring has when it is applied.

As far as killing combos, I wouldn't listen to them. While it does remove certain combos at higher %s, people have found true combos for low %s and the ideal follow up will be a good read into another hit.

In a nutshell, I think Vectoring can best be equated to a more free and easy to understand DI(like a more potent Smash DI at higher percents), that is only incredibly effective and really noticable at high percents when it comes to KOing, moreso than combos. Combos are still a thing and while they're more limited, true combos do still exist. As far as the people who are going around saying Vectoring kills ALL true combos(you know who you are), don't let that information mislead you.

 

[MrGameandBalls]

Ganondorf also looks much less fun in Smash 4 than PM.

I'm sorry, what?

 

[IblisTriggersPuppet]

Dr mario

 

[Senario]

RIP Ganondorf. I knew thee well in melee and PM.

 

[Duskinja]

Toon Link, he was finally given his own unique move-set only to have it taken away by the devil-worshiper known as Sakurai.

Well that was straight uncalled for(Sakurai is like god or something). Toon Link is fine whether if he has a clone set or not.

 

[_Chrome]

Okay, so vectoring lets you add(or adversely, reduce) your knockback value by an unknown amount atm(we just know that it adds). As far as survival, it makes survival a LOT easier. Combo wise, this is where it gets interesting, as a player can "vector" up and away to escape combos at certain %s. Other findings show that Vectoring scales with knockback, meaning that the lower the knockback, the less influence vectoring has when it is applied.

As far as killing combos, I wouldn't listen to them. While it does remove certain combos at higher %s, people have found true combos for low %s and the ideal follow up will be a good read into another hit.

In a nutshell, I think Vectoring can best be equated to a more free and easy to understand DI(like a more potent Smash DI at higher percents), that is only incredibly effective and really noticable at high percents when it comes to KOing, moreso than combos. Combos are still a thing and while they're more limited, true combos do still exist. As far as the people who are going around saying Vectoring kills ALL true combos(you know who you are), don't let that information mislead you.

Oh I get it now! Directional influence in past games had constant values that worked against knockback (meaning DI was less effective at higher percents; DI was only so good), whereas vectoring uses scalar multiples, so people still have the same amount of influence in Smash 4 at higher percents that they did at lower percents. Credits to Avro-Arrow, my brother: we just figured it out.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Pretty much solely Wario.

Sonic gained as much as he lost from P:M, I can't quite count Roy or Mewtwo since they're not there (and I already know the Koopa joke, plz stop). I didn't even main Falco and his clone-ism was disgusting, as was Game and Watch losing the parachute in recovery. And don't even get me started on the stages, that was P:M's greatest screw up.

On contrast, Wario gained an excellent dair and side b became one of his best moves. Those Wario world references are alas, completely gone in Smash 4.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I hear a lot of people saying that it's the baby of SSB and Brawl, but I just don't see it. There's little hit stun, laggy aerials and op recoveries. Sounds a lot like Brawl. Hopefully there's more shield stun this time. The shield grabs and chain throws were too much in brawl, and so were the poor dash mechanics and lack of l-canceling. Regardless, it's still fun. I just prefer SSB and Melee (cough PM).
As long as the game is fluid and balanced, it'll be alright.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Or is it like SSB in the sense that it's about setting up quick gimps? That was always fun

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I'm going to miss what Samus got in actuality. I heard that Samus was considered the strongest character by Nintendo, but that's just Nintendo. She's probably only mid-high tier at best. Although, this is only speculator atm considering I've never played it.

 

[SpaceJell0]

These guys:
Charizard doesn't look nearly as beast as he does in P:M and his P:M NAir is WAY better than SSB4's from what I've seen.
DK's Dash Attack looks slower and less useful than P:M
Fox's nerfs are too apparent but not too bad, but I think P:M did him way better
Speaks for himself
Mr. Game & Watch was simply at his best in P:M, but SSB4 G&W is nothing to sneeze at either
Same as G&W
Same as G&W
Most of his moves in P:M look aesthetically better and make more sense than in SSB4
Same as Sonic
Wario Land>Warioware (but the Bike makes sense as a move and the Wario Waft is funny and in character)
Same as G&W


and Luca- oh...nevermind...
Well Mewtw-oh...right...
and Wol- well you get the point xD

 

[_Chrome]

I know he was out of place in Super Smash Bros, but is anyone else going to miss Snake?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Well that was straight uncalled for(Sakurai is like god or something). Toon Link is fine whether if he has a clone set or not.

Toon Link's custom specials sound pretty cool though. His Fire Arrows do that thing that I think they did in Brawl- where they leave a little damaging flame on the ground for a bit. Also he has a boomerang that acts like a trap in that it takes forever to come back after being thrown. It also disappears when it hits a foe on the return, allowing Toon Link to use it again.

As for everyone complaining about Ganondorf, have you seen his custom specials? How about his UAir, which (according to Zipzo) does 15% with no landing lag and has a disjoint with a darkness effect? Oh also, his useless Up Tilt is crazy buffed now. The windbox is stronger, the move is faster, and if I recall correctly it deals roughly the same damage as most Final Smashes. (By which I mean around 40%.) Oh, and it also KOs earlier than many Final Smashes.

I hear a lot of people saying that it's the baby of SSB and Brawl, but I just don't see it. There's little hit stun, laggy aerials and op recoveries. Sounds a lot like Brawl. Hopefully there's more shield stun this time. The shield grabs and chain throws were too much in brawl, and so were the poor dash mechanics and lack of l-canceling. Regardless, it's still fun. I just prefer SSB and Melee (cough PM).
As long as the game is fluid and balanced, it'll be alright.

There's more hitstun than in Brawl thanks to it being non-cancellable, chain-grabs are forcibly removed every which way, and every character has at least one lagless aerial. Oh, and many aerials auto-cancel if you land them after the hitbox ends.

I could start listing the lagless and auto-cancelling aerials I know of from the demo alone, if you'd like:

Mario: Lagless: NAir, BAir. Auto-cancelling: FAir.

Link: Lagless: NAir, BAir, FAir. Auto-cancelling: DAir, ZAir (unusual because the auto-cancel is while the hitbox is out but before it reaches maximum distance, but then that's true of most ZAirs).

Villager: Lagless: NAir. Auto-cancelling: Possibly BAir and FAir, but I'm uncertain on this.

Megaman: Lagless: FAir. Auto-cancelling: BAir. Special mention goes to NAir, which continues on the ground. It's like his jab in that you can fire up to 3 shots, but NAir shots deal more damage and knockback than jab shots. If you land during NAir before firing all 3 shots, you can fire the other two on the ground, and they'll come out as NAir shots rather than jab shots.

Pikachu: Lagless: FAir. Auto-cancelling: Possibly DAir and UAir, but I'm uncertain on this.

So now that we've done that, can everyone please stop complaining about the lack of L-cancelling because it's obviously a non-issue in this game.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

@ JamietheAuraUser I wasn't factoring in custom specials when I made my post. And yes, I have seen them.

Oh yeah, I'm noticing a lot of people saying Charizard. I was gonna say him at first, but I'm just so glad that he got Rock Smash back that I don't even care if the rest of him was better in PM lawlz

 

[marvel b]

i would have to say either lucario or toon link.they had awesome details added in p:m, but i'm still happy they made it back in 3ds/wiiu

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@ JamietheAuraUser Still, only having a few aerials that can cancel limits the game's mobility (approaches, comboes). And besides, there was no hit stun cancelling in Brawl, just momentum cancelling. That's different; comboes weren't shortened by momentum cancels, only kill moves. And the fire arrows were the work of the PMBR, modelled after Young Link.

Thank you for giving some examples of characters with auto-cancelling aerials and lagless aerials. Speaking of which, how are lagless and auto-cancelling aerials different?

 

[Prism]

i would have to say either lucario or toon link.they had awesome details added in p:m, but i'm still happy they made it back in 3ds/wiiu

Yeah, I guess even though I expected them both to be back, they both could've been dropped (Mewtwo was out while Lucario was in in Brawl, Lucario could've been out in exchange for a Pokemon like Zoroark in Smash 4. Toon Link could've been dropped if Sakurai considered him too much of a clone, though honestly who knows what Sakurai really thinks about clones). I'm glad they both made it back for the 4th iteration

 

[Balloonicorn]

I was a brawl Wario main but it looks like I'm in the minority when I say that I strongly dislike what PM did to Wario...
Anyways to answer the proposed question, I'd have to say Dr. Mario (even if it is just a Mario reskin in PM)- he just looks so clunky in 4 in terms of recovery. Also it's minor but I'm going to miss having PK Fire still explode on shields.

 

[κomıc]

Wario for sure. I love his fighting style in PM.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

@ JamietheAuraUser Still, only having a few aerials that can cancel limits the game's mobility (approaches, comboes). And besides, there was no hit stun cancelling in Brawl, just momentum cancelling. That's different; comboes weren't shortened by momentum cancels, only kill moves. And the fire arrows were the work of the PMBR, modelled after Young Link.

Thank you for giving some examples of characters with auto-cancelling aerials and lagless aerials. Speaking of which, how are lagless and auto-cancelling aerials different?

There was hitstun cancelling in Brawl. If you were put into tumbling hitstun, you could air dodge out after 16 frames. Another thing that made many attacks in Brawl so ridiculously unsafe was the extreme power of SDI in that game. Most multi-hit moves had SDI multipliers greater than 1, making them very easy to reliably escape before the final hit and then punish. For example, the multi-hit portion of Mario's DAir had an SDI multiplier of 1.5x.

For the record, Brawl's engine does support true combos, it's just that very few members of the cast can actually do them. As long as the opponent does not enter tumble, they're subjected to the full duration of whatever hitstun they're in. I managed to make a Lucario PSA hack that can true combo 3 jabs into DTilt into 2 jabs into UTilt at certain percents, all thanks to abuse of SDI multipliers, weak grounded spikes with set knockback, and a disjointed DTilt that sends the foe back towards Lucario.

Also, Brawl- gave Toon Link arrows that stuck in the ground and left a damaging hitbox behind, as well. They came in Fire, Ice, and Light variants. Unlike the ones in Project: M, these ones cause knockback. Light arrows paralyze the foe, while ice arrows freeze them. In fact, if I recall correctly, Brawl- Toon Link did this before Project: M ever did.

As for the difference between auto-cancelling and full laglessness, auto-cancelling means there's a specific window during which you can land during the move to remove all landing lag. A lagless aerial never has landing lag no matter when you land during the aerial. For most aerials that auto-cancel, the auto-cancel occurs after the end of all of the attack's hitboxes. For Link's DAir, this means if you bounce off of a grounded opponent twice, you'll land with no lag at all, but you won't be able to take any other actions other than modifying your trajectory until you land because you'll be stuck in the move's endlag.

Also, Captain Falcon has the Combo of Justice again. You know, sourspot knee > sweetspot knee? Yeah, that one. Although, it could just be a string this time around. Still pretty hype, though: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/c/5144578

 

[Avro-Arrow]

@ JamietheAuraUser Yeah, I guess that would cancel knockback wouldn't it? Silly me. As for the arrows, well, apparently I'm not as literate as I thought; I missed the - you put there. For the record, I have never played Brawl Minus; I have little knowledge of it.

About true combos, Kirby has one that I know of. On every character at zero percent, grab > fthrow > Uair > regrab > Uair. Good combo. After that, his best throw is dthrow.

Thanks for clearing that up about the aerial cancelling. I'm glad Link's Dair cancels. I love pogoing on peoples' heads.

I watched your video, Falcon looks kind of slow, eh? But he'd better have that knee combo.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

@ JamietheAuraUser Yeah, I guess that would cancel knockback wouldn't it? Silly me. As for the arrows, well, apparently I'm not as literate as I thought; I missed the - you put there. For the record, I have never played Brawl Minus; I have little knowledge of it.

About true combos, Kirby has one that I know of. On every character at zero percent, grab > fthrow > Uair > regrab > Uair. Good combo. After that, his best throw is dthrow.

Thanks for clearing that up about the aerial cancelling. I'm glad Link's Dair cancels. I love pogoing on peoples' heads.

I watched your video, Falcon looks kind of slow, eh? But he'd better have that knee combo.

Momentum cancelling and hitstun cancelling are technically different things, although hitstun cancelling is a big part of what makes momentum cancelling work as well as it does. Momentum cancelling simply refers to the trait of most aerial actions in Brawl to decrease your momentum slightly. For some characters with particularly spammable aerial moves, such as Meta Knight's UAir, this can get pretty ugly pretty fast. For most of the cast, an air dodge also happens to be their fastest aerial action, leading to air dodge spamming being their best way to cancel momentum. The other thing is that once you have control over your character, you're able to modify your horizontal airspeed as if you were moving normally in the air. So by cancelling out of hitstun as soon as possible, you're also able to put your natural aerial deceleration and acceleration to good use and survive attacks you otherwise shouldn't. If you give a character with 100 weight Wario-like air mobility, they'll tend to be able to live horizontal hits a lot longer than a 100-weight character with less air mobility. The way this works is that your character's own air speed serves to counteract the momentum placed upon them by the opponent's attack.

Other nonsense about Brawl physics, specifically SDI: In Brawl, it is possible for a CPU player to SDI out of Pit's NAir after having taken only about 3 hits for a total of 1% damage, or SDI up and over the second hit of Pit's FSmash. I wish I was joking, but I'm not. Also, part of the reason Zelda is so low-tier in Brawl is that her FSmash and USmash can both be escaped before the final hit comes out just by SDIing up and mashing either jump or a particularly fast aerial (has to also have a disjointed hitbox below if trying to escape USmash), preventing her from using either attack as a kill move and practically guaranteeing that it gets punished on hit.

Sorry about just using the little minus sign there instead of just spelling out "Brawl Minus". It figures it would be pretty easy to miss.

And that's not actually my video, just one I happened to find. Falcon seems pretty solid this game from what I've seen, barring over half a second of landing lag on the knee and a little more startup on the Raptor Boost. He looks a little Brawl Falcon-y in terms of air mobility, but he's a very strong character thanks to the physics changes between this game and Brawl. I don't think Falcon himself has actually changed all that much between games for the most part with the exception of N64 > Melee, it's just the physics that have changed around him. That's why Brawl Falcon was so bad: he hadn't had his balance adjusted since the earliest phases of the game's development, back when they were still running Melee physics. Where Meta Knight was a Melee character in Brawl in all the right ways (leading to him destroying almost the entirety of the Brawl cast), Captain Falcon was a Melee character in Brawl in all the wrong ways.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Goodbye . How will I miss thee.

Also I'm fearing for not getting well used to 's short knife Falchion after his amazing reach in PM and Melee. Might also miss Ryucario.

 

[Deleted member]

PM Wario has made me look forward to Smash 4 Wario. I feel like I'm in a minority, but I dislike PM Wario's design compared to Brawl Wario. Only change I liked was the removal of grab release stuff.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, maybe Meta Knight. I enjoy using Meta Knight's stab dive too much, but sense I don't play him in Brawl or PM too much, it's not that big a deal.

 

[ferioku]

Wolf, I wish he was actually playable! My favorite Brawl character reduced to nothing, I really feel the Mewtwo fan boy's pain T_T

 

[Prism]

Wolf, I wish he was actually playable! My favorite Brawl character reduced to nothing, I really feel the Mewtwo fan boy's pain T_T

Wolf was a neat character. I hope he makes it in DLC.

 

[EmblemCrossing]

I'll miss my buffed Lucas.. (And, you know, in general. RIP my main, you're off with Boney now)

And Ivysaur, (wait, no)

And my boy Roy (it burns..)

But I remember being really excited about Lucario in Smash 4, until I realized that PM's Lucario pretty much felt completely different in the fact that he has the Spirit Bomb, and the Aura level mechanics... Ah well, there will be others.

 

[Hitzel]

It seems that every PM character will end up being more fun than every Smash 4 version of itself in just about every conceivable way.

That being said, a lack of PM Lucario will probably be the biggest loss. He's just too awesome.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It seems that every PM character will end up being more fun than every Smash 4 version of itself in just about every conceivable way.

That being said, a lack of PM Lucario will probably be the biggest loss. He's just too awesome.

You know, some people have the complete opposite opinion about many characters. And Project: M's take on Lucario is especially controversial, primarily because his playstyle is 100% completely different from his Brawl incarnation.

For me, Smash 4's Lucario looks pretty freaking awesome, quite possibly far more awesome than Project: M's version, or at the very least just different. His aura mechanic from Brawl is back in a big way. Lucario at 0% is actually nerfed in some ways compared to Brawl... but the buffs from aura get very big, very fast. At maximum aura intensity, Force Palm's projectile version literally reaches 40% of the way across Final Destination. Extreme Speed travels about 2.5x its normal distance. Aura Sphere is huge, fast, and has long range.

His customs are pretty good too. I especially like the Extreme Speed variant that decreases the dash distance, in exchange for multiple weak hits at the start of the dash and a powerful meteor smash at the end. It's rather like a shorter-range Wolf Flash that can go any direction you want, to be honest. Oh, also, the dash-grab Force Palm is pretty pwnsome as well, as are both Aura Sphere customizations. One of them is pretty much a chargeable version of Mario's Fire Orb, except it has a weak wind effect to pull foes towards its hitbox. When charged, it's bigger and more damaging... but also slower and even shorter ranged, making it more of a trap than anything. And then the other variant is a much smaller Aura Sphere that reaches maximum charge much faster. It's much weaker than the normal version, but it pierces to hit multiple foes, is very fast, and has longer range than a standard Aura Sphere.

 

[Hitzel]

You know, some people have the complete opposite opinion about many characters. And Project: M's take on Lucario is especially controversial, primarily because his playstyle is 100% completely different from his Brawl incarnation.

For me, Smash 4's Lucario looks pretty freaking awesome, quite possibly far more awesome than Project: M's version, or at the very least just different. His aura mechanic from Brawl is back in a big way. Lucario at 0% is actually nerfed in some ways compared to Brawl... but the buffs from aura get very big, very fast. At maximum aura intensity, Force Palm's projectile version literally reaches 40% of the way across Final Destination. Extreme Speed travels about 2.5x its normal distance. Aura Sphere is huge, fast, and has long range.

His customs are pretty good too. I especially like the Extreme Speed variant that decreases the dash distance, in exchange for multiple weak hits at the start of the dash and a powerful meteor smash at the end. It's rather like a shorter-range Wolf Flash that can go any direction you want, to be honest. Oh, also, the dash-grab Force Palm is pretty pwnsome as well, as are both Aura Sphere customizations. One of them is pretty much a chargeable version of Mario's Fire Orb, except it has a weak wind effect to pull foes towards its hitbox. When charged, it's bigger and more damaging... but also slower and even shorter ranged, making it more of a trap than anything. And then the other variant is a much smaller Aura Sphere that reaches maximum charge much faster. It's much weaker than the normal version, but it pierces to hit multiple foes, is very fast, and has longer range than a standard Aura Sphere.

Yeah those custom moves do look really cool, especially the Yoga Catastrophe version of his fireball.

As a Marvel/Street Fighter player, PM Luke's canceling mechanics are just way too awesome. Like, every Smash character should be able to do that stuff. It's just so fun and can lead to so many interesting things.

I can see how a Brawl Lucario main who's never played other fighting games could feel really out of place with PM Lucario though.

 

[Deleted member]

It seems that every PM character will end up being more fun than every Smash 4 version of itself in just about every conceivable way.

Except for Wario