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Character Balancing/Cloning Changes

Joined
Jun 4, 2006
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8,377
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Long Beach,California
I'd like to see each character take full advantage of the unique traits and abilities that made them icons from their respective games. So, yes, Poltergust would be a good idea.

I really don't want to see Luigi with a vacuum. This idea that all of smash characters should be a carbon copy of a cannon franchise isn't good, and it's honestly just lazy. Mario got his FLUDD and you see how that turned out.
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
I really don't want to see Luigi with a vacuum. This idea that all of smash characters should be a carbon copy of a cannon franchise isn't good, and it's honestly just lazy. Mario got his FLUDD and you see how that turned out.
It wouldn't be possible to make them carbon copies of what they were in their franchise games since the mechanics differ so much. Their abilities and traits from the franchise games should make an appearance in Smash in order to make them more unique. I fail to see how it's lazy, since taking the time to incorporate the distinctive features in a semi-balanced fashion can't be done if you're lazy. Mario's FLUDD is only one instance in which the move sucks. Look at every other special attack in the game. The FLUDD is an example of a poorly-executed effort to incorporate it into the game. It doesn't represent every other potential move that could be used, or every other move already in the game.

Without incorporating any unique features of characters from their home games into Smash, you get characters like Ganon/Falcon and Falco/Fox. No thanks.
 

BlitznBurst

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
723
- Upon activating Luigi's Final Smash, the other players would turn into different colored ghosts and Luigi would have a limited time to suck them into his Poltergust 3000 with Down B. At the end of the time given, Luigi would should the ghosts he caught upward, resulting in KO's for players over 70%. This would replace the Negative Zone entirely.
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to release the ghosts from the poltergust, letting them wreak havoc on the map? That would be pretty entertaining. In fact, I'd like it if Luigi got a complete overhaul with moves from Luigi's Mansion, but I don't think that's really likely at all. Down-B as his poltergust is good enough for me.
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
Wouldn't it make more sense for him to release the ghosts from the poltergust, letting them wreak havoc on the map? That would be pretty entertaining. In fact, I'd like it if Luigi got a complete overhaul with moves from Luigi's Mansion, but I don't think that's really likely at all. Down-B as his poltergust is good enough for me.
Yeah, and this could be a chance for King Boo and friends to make an appearance, too. I'm liking this idea.
 

BlitznBurst

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
723
King Boo woudl be a cool assist trophy, although I'd say E. Gadd is probably a lot more likely.
 

Sorta Splody

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
6
i think an interesting way they could buff yoshi is to make it so that if you B an enemy then walk or jump over to where the egg is, you could up B and toss it away. this would be more difficult at lower %, but it would be a fun way to maybe set up combos.
 

Ove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
450
Location
Sweden
I really don't want to see Luigi with a vacuum. This idea that all of smash characters should be a carbon copy of a cannon franchise isn't good, and it's honestly just lazy. Mario got his FLUDD and you see how that turned out.
Then you have misunderstood the concept of Smash. The more elements from the character's respective series they can include, the better.

The alternative is to make a fighting game with generic figures without special abilities and switching said figures with famous characters from different Nintendo consoles.
 

BlitznBurst

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
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I really don't want to see Luigi with a vacuum. This idea that all of smash characters should be a carbon copy of a cannon franchise isn't good, and it's honestly just lazy. Mario got his FLUDD and you see how that turned out.
Because god forbid a character use actual abilities from his actual franchise. That would just be stupid! I mean, what next, Mario shooting fireballs, or Kirby inhaling enemies?
 

FalKoopa

Rainbow Waifu
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Well, I prefer them to keep Luigi's current down B. It's useful, and don't want another FLUDD situation....

Poltergust can be made his ranged grab.
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
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8,377
Location
Long Beach,California
Because god forbid a character use actual abilities from his actual franchise. That would just be stupid! I mean, what next, Mario shooting fireballs, or Kirby inhaling enemies?

What I'm saying is just directly ripping something out of another game just because it did it in another. I understand characters share certain moves from their respective franchises, but the interesting part is the twist that the developers put on said moves. If you just rip something strait out of game it becomes boring.
 

BlitznBurst

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
723
Kirby inhales opponents and copies their abilities

Mario shoots fireballs which bounce along the ground a few times and disappear

Link throws bombs that have a set time limit before they explode and do damage to him

Yoshi swallows enemies and turns them into eggs

I'm really not seeing the issue here
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
Design changes:
Universally the difference between slow and fast attacks needs to be less significant. What happens is as players get better, a lot of these moves become obscure punishes/mindgames you see maybe once every other match. This already seems to be the case with Bowser, Link and Samus, so I hope this carries onward.
Overall less floatiness, so that characters who are actually meant to be floaty have appropriate strengths and weaknesses.
Ganondorf to still have the same brute character design, but make use of either his sword or trident in addition to stronger punches and kicks, and granted Dead Man's Volley.
Ike to be replaced with Chrom. Different technique but same general character direction and attack properties. Given his own B and B forward specials that are actually interesting. A non-spammy javelin would give him a bit more stage control.


Specifics:
Samus to be given missiles that actually kill again.
Link to be faster overall but retain stiffness and poor recovery. Return of SSB64 boomerang, giving it more KO power.
Jigglypuff removed and aerial prowess granted to Kirby.
Mother series characters to use a Pit-esque reinterpretation suitable for a 3d environemnt, making them a bit taller and giving them much needed reach.
Less priority given to Meta Knight attacks that are just not fun to fight against. :/
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
Or we could just remove Kirby and give Jigglypuff a gigantic hammer and the ability to turn into a stone.
:b Jokes aside, while I primarily put gameplay on the forefront, it would do well in the way of fan service if the more important character was given the forefront. We got a character with awesome aerial attacks and cute hats, uninteresting ground game and two complete bogus special attacks... and then another character who they have struggled to make competitive since SSB64 compared to the roster in general. The hammer is kind of bogus as well, though the design is sound and it just needs some tweaking

he worst part about the proposition is Rest was a really interesting dynamic for Jiggs... and I don't think we can merge them and maintain such a unique attack.
 

PrincessAzula

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
78
Location
Dallas, TX
:b Jokes aside, while I primarily put gameplay on the forefront, it would do well in the way of fan service if the more important character was given the forefront. We got a character with awesome aerial attacks and cute hats, uninteresting ground game and two complete bogus special attacks... and then another character who they have struggled to make competitive since SSB64 compared to the roster in general. The hammer is kind of bogus as well, though the design is sound and it just needs some tweaking

he worst part about the proposition is Rest was a really interesting dynamic for Jiggs... and I don't think we can merge them and maintain such a unique attack.
She has an uninteresting ground game because she was created to be the aerial queen. Don't you think if they gave great ground attacks she would be a little monstrous to fight?

The best you can do is hope for a revamp in Kirby's moveset. C'mon man, I'm a Zelda main. I empathize with your sentiments on a character "struggling to be competitive." What I hope for in Smash 4 is a complete change in Zelda's moveset (probably won't happen, but I can dream)

My point is: Why remove a (popular) character with a decent moveset to give another character essentially that removed character's moveset. Wouldn't it just be easier to hope that the other character (Kirby) just get a revamp in their moveset?
 

Hong

The Strongest
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
23,550
She has an uninteresting ground game because she was created to be the aerial queen. Don't you think if they gave great ground attacks she would be a little monstrous to fight?
The best you can do is hope for a revamp in Kirby's moveset. C'mon man, I'm a Zelda main. I empathize with your sentiments on a character "struggling to be competitive." What I hope for in Smash 4 is a complete change in Zelda's moveset (probably won't happen, but I can dream)

My point is: Why remove a (popular) character with a decent moveset to give another character essentially that removed character's moveset. Wouldn't it just be easier to hope that the other character (Kirby) just get a revamp in their moveset?
I said interesting. That is not necessarily a statement on capability, so much as moves that are more fun. That said, unless we get hitstun akin the first two entries, I am having a hard time seeing Jiggs thriving off the aerial capability on its own. so I am not opposed to a more adaptable character kit anyways. Not like I am asking for the character to have a strong ground game so much as rounding off the edges and enabling more of their kit. Generally what happens in every fighting game is the more characters you have, the harder it is to keep them balanced and diverse. :/

If they can give them both an actual character direction that works, then sure I would love to keep Jiggs around. As it stands, unless they completely revamp Kirby from what we have seen thus far or retool Jiggs a great deal and give her more moves that have... substance, while having a well-designed cast of like 40~ characters, then I can say I wouldn't miss her. I would be genuinely impressed.
 

PrincessAzula

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
78
Location
Dallas, TX
I said interesting. That is not necessarily a statement on capability, so much as moves that are more fun. That said, unless we get hitstun akin the first two entries, I am having a hard time seeing Jiggs thriving off the aerial capability on its own. so I am not opposed to a more adaptable character kit anyways. Generally what happens in every fighting game is the more characters you have, the harder it is to keep them balanced and diverse. :/

If they can give them both an actual character direction that works, then sure I would love to keep Jiggs around. As it stands, unless they completely revamp Kirby from what we have seen thus far or retool Jiggs a great deal and give her more moves that have... substance, while having a well-designed cast of like 40~ characters, then I can say I wouldn't miss her. I would be genuinely impressive.
I agree about the size of the roster and the balancing capabilities.

I also agree that if there isn't hitstun then characters like Jiggs will probably be low tier again. I understand what you're saying, but the liklihood of them actually removing Jiggs is lower and the likelihood of giving Kirby parts of Jiggs' moveset is even lower.

I feel like if they gave Kirby an actual projectile instead of that god awful Up-b he would fair a little bit better. And making the hammer faster and less powerful (but still a reliable finisher) would also help his situation out.
 

Sashimi

Smash Ace
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
704
I really hope Diddy Kong keeps his bananas!

Also, they need to bring back all of the things that made Yoshi fun to play. I liked his aerial mobility in Brawl, but they really limited his eggs and took away Double Jump Cancelling. I hope he gets 64/Melee eggs and DJC back.

As much as I hate Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone, I don't know if giving Ganondorf his sword would be a good thing. We have enough sword characters as it is.

Luigi's Poltergust would be cool, and Mario's FLUDD would be okay if it was more useful.

Zelda should have her Project M Side-B (unfortunately, this won't happen) and be generally buffed. I like her moveset so I think a total overhaul would be a waste of the moves she already has.

Make Dedede's Waddle-Dees smarter!
 

Renji64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2009
Messages
1,988
Location
Jacksonville FL
I rather have things that work the fludd was useless not that good and so would be luigi using a vacuum. If they update luigi with that why doesn't mario have any elements from the galaxy series then. I just rather have good movesets that work well.
 

Silverjay323

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
444
Location
Atlanta,Georgia
Explore more possibilities with PSI for Ness/Lucas. PSI Teleport for recovery, give Ness an attack similar to PSI Rockin, and let Lucas use PK Ground as his neutral B, a more powerful version of DK's down B, if I were to compare it to something. Also, give Lucas' tether recovery more range and a hitbox.
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
I rather have things that work the fludd was useless not that good and so would be luigi using a vacuum. If they update luigi with that why doesn't mario have any elements from the galaxy series then. I just rather have good movesets that work well.
Then you are in favor of well-executed moves that have been integrated into Smash in a practical and useful way.

I don't see how that idea would cause the vacuum would be useless, as it is not in the game yet, so you do not have the basis upon which to judge its usefulness. The FLUDD is way different from the Poltergust...And adding the Poltergust does not mean Mario should always also get another move from a different game. The Poltergust is just something that sticks out to a lot of people as something distinctly Luigi, and thus should be put in Smash in his moveset somehow. As I stated before, the FLUDD is ONE example of a move that sucks due to its poor execution. You're using that one example to represent every other potential special, some of which are already included in the game and are already good, so you take them for granted. That's like saying "Hey, this one move sucks, so let's never attempt to develop anything that is a move because it will also surely suck."
 

Hypercat-Z

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
1,728
I think the FLUUD should be powered and I'm all for Luigi having the Poltergust this time. You know, those two objects in the same game would be purrfect because they are basically the opposite: one sucks and the other blows.
 

Hypercat-Z

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
1,728
I'm hoping to see some changes to Link's side smash and his overall power and speed.
Tired of seeing my main suffer against faster characters.
All he need is a longer sword, fire arrows, and bombs with a larger area of deflagration.
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
I'm hoping to see some changes to Link's side smash and his overall power and speed.
Tired of seeing my main suffer against faster characters.
Yup, same here. But it's kinda rewarding when people totally diss your character and come at you with characters from a much higher tier. And then you utterly destroy them hand them their rears on a plate and they have nothing else to say.

Hm, regarding his moves...I'm okay with his two-part forward smash since I like using it for mindgames. It's more useful than his N64 forward smash, IMO. A slight increase in knockback scaling should take care of its killing issue. Link isn't particularly slow, and he's a heavy so he shouldn't be 'fast' anyway. No real issues with his power in terms of damage, just a slight increase in knockback scaling for his finishers.

Either way, still using Link in this new Smash lol
 

smashbrolink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
307
Location
Santa Ana California
Yup, same here. But it's kinda rewarding when people totally diss your character and come at you with characters from a much higher tier. And then you utterly destroy them hand them their rears on a plate and they have nothing else to say.

Hm, regarding his moves...I'm okay with his two-part forward smash since I like using it for mindgames. It's more useful than his N64 forward smash, IMO. A slight increase in knockback scaling should take care of its killing issue. Link isn't particularly slow, and he's a heavy so he shouldn't be 'fast' anyway. No real issues with his power in terms of damage, just a slight increase in knockback scaling for his finishers.

Either way, still using Link in this new Smash lol
If Link is a heavy, I'm a purple pikmin, bro.XD
He's a middle-weight with poor recovery and low speed. That's something that needs to be fixed.
If they classify him as a heavy, and his recovery doesn't get some distance added to it so that it at least becomes comparable to DK's horizontal distance, then they'd better do a decent-sized boost to his overall damage ability, because hitting like a light-weight without the speed or recovery ability of one is just bull.XD
 
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